Lebron or Kobe: the Debate is Finally Settled
The most polarizing question in all of sports. The only question that can turn a barbershop immediately on its head. The only question that has the potential of destroying the honeymoon night of two virgin newly weds.
That question is who is better Kobe "The Black Mamba" Bryant or "The King" Lebron James?
Before I explore the question at hand I would like to speak for a spell about to similar players before Kobe and Lebron.
Those players are Oscar Robertson and Michael Jordan.
Oscar Robertson better known as the "Big O". The Big O was King of the stat lines. He was before his time,being able to score with the best with them while simultaneously setting up his counterparts was nothing short of spectacular.
His career stats were 25.7 points per game, 1 steal a game, 9.5 assist per game, 7.5 rebounds a game. He was a 83% percent free throw shooter and shot 48 percent from the field.
Oscar once averaged a triple double for a whole season with 30.8 points a game, 11.4 assist per game, and a whopping 12.5 rebounds a game. Statistically in his prime he is the best player to ever pick up a basketball.
The question that might be asked is, why isn't he known as the best? With all of the numbers Oscar put up night in and night out, How did Michael steal Oscar's glory?
With elite players being so close statistically the deciding factors comes down to intangibles. Those qualities of a player that there are no statistical categories for.
Drive, dedication, discipline. Heart, focus attention to detail. It's the intangibles that separate a star player from a champion. A one time champion from a multiple champion player.
Though basketball is a team game, the leader of said team is the drive of that team. Regardless of the numbers he puts up if he doesn't have a heart of a champion the team will not win the championship.
So even though Michael Jordan was a better scorer than Oscar with a 30.1 avg. He falls significantly short in other categories with only 6 rebounds a game, and 5 assist a game.
However what sports analyst the world wide fail to put in consideration are the things that really drive basketball. The things that don't reflect on the stat sheet. Which Jordan takes in a landslide over the great Big O.
So it is with Kobe and Lebron. Lebron puts up slightly better numbers than Kobe. Kobe is the better scorer if you discount the years where he came off the bench. While Lebron takes the assist category and rebounds which he should being a 6'8 260 lbs forward.
Now for a break down. Kobe is flat out the better shooter his mid range game is the best the NBA has seen since Jerry West.
Passing ability goes to Lebron. While Kobe has the ability to pass with the best of them and has the flashier passes between the two.
Lebron does it more efficiently partly because he looks to pass first which is not fundamental basketball from a forward who should be looking to score the ball.
Defense equal Lebron is a better help defender Kobe is a better one on one defender.
Rebounding goes to Lebron with a slight edge even with the significant height and weight advantage.
Basketball IQ goes to Kobe in a landslide.
Fundamental goes to Kobe while Lebron is great he is not a fundamentally sound player. He struggles from the freethrow line. He is a 6'8 260 pound forward who has a very weak post game. He has very few go to moves however what he does have he makes due with.
Kobe as far as fundamentals far exceeds expectation not only can he do it all on the perimeter, he has even added and perfected low post moves. Kobe has the skills set that Lebron should have given his size.
Clutch play goes to Kobe just check the resume.
Lebron doesn't even stand a chance in the intangibles, like Jordan, Kobe's life is basketball.
Kobe hates to lose, he is furious after a loss whether it be playoffs or regular season. Kobe plays every game like it is his last. His dedication is second to none.
He is the most accomplished player in the league and still the hardest working. That alone speaks volumes.
It is these things that go unnoticed to the causal basketball fan that elevates Kobe over Lebron. The fact that this is even a debate is further evidence why Lebron's name shouldn't even be mentioned next to Kobe's.
During Jordan's prime no one in the league was able to challenge him as far as pure skill.
The same with Kobe, in his prime it was a far gone conclusion that he was the best hands down. When Nash won the two MVP's during Kobe's prime it was the equivalent of John Stockton winning a MVP during Jordan's prime. Bull-Shit.
Everyone knew it was politics because of Kobe's predicament more so than Nash being the better of the two.
However in Lebron's prime not only has Kobe won a MVP award, he has won two championships along with two finals MVP awards.
Ironically the same years Lebron won his MVP awards and was apart of the best regular season teams in both respective years.
This isn't coincidence this is a direct reflection of what you do not see on tv. The hardwork, the sweat, the tears. Among other things the reason why Kobe is better at basketball then Lebron comes down to one thing. Heart. Kobe loves this game even more than he loves himself.
He sacrifices his body while playing injured. He sacrifices his career stats by taking the crucial shots his teammates shy away from.
He sacrifices his career by not playing the NBA politics unapologetic he always been the same person even when it gets him crucified by the media.
It is the same stubbornness that allows Kobe to still dominate in Lebron's era. Unlike Lebron Kobe doesn't concede to anything.
He refuses to let a bum knee stop him. He refuses to let a damaged finger stop him. He refuses to let torn ligaments in his shooting wrist stop him.
So we must ask ourselves is this really a debate? Kobe should not be a front runner for MVP in a Lebron era. He should not be leading the league in scoring in a Lebron era. Yet in the face of adversity Kobe is his best, while Lebron is his worst.
That's what separates them. That's why Kobe is better than Lebron and quite possibly the best player to ever play the game.
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We've never talked about this before. Thanks for bringing it up.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein
Captain Obvious, er, MagicJohnson: Kobe, Bynum & Gasol all must step up big to beat the @76ers.
Tweetness
by SoCalGal on Feb 7, 2012 11:06 AM PST reply actions 10 recs
haha
"No one wins forever. Only thing that matters is how you face it when the cards don't come up your way. I'm not afraid." - Spider-Man (Amazing Spider-Man #475)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess." - Kobe Bryant
Dude, all this time with thousands of blogs and articles discussing this topic, and the debate is FINALLY settled
Thank you Rhead for putting this topic to rest once and for all.
Next, can you settle the argument of Coke vs. Pepsi?
coke
batman vs. superman
batman, definitely
"No one wins forever. Only thing that matters is how you face it when the cards don't come up your way. I'm not afraid." - Spider-Man (Amazing Spider-Man #475)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess." - Kobe Bryant
star trek vs star wars
star trek (coz of the reboot)
"No one wins forever. Only thing that matters is how you face it when the cards don't come up your way. I'm not afraid." - Spider-Man (Amazing Spider-Man #475)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess." - Kobe Bryant
Most paragraphs EVAR!!1
"What we want to remember—what we will remember—is the indelible vision of Kobe, his arms outstretched, delirious with joy and disbelief, running after and grabbing hold of Lamar Odom’s floating downcourt pass, while all the purple and gold streamers in the world are raining down on the hardwood." - Brian Tung
yeah.
he wrote it well. just tired of this topic.
"What we want to remember—what we will remember—is the indelible vision of Kobe, his arms outstretched, delirious with joy and disbelief, running after and grabbing hold of Lamar Odom’s floating downcourt pass, while all the purple and gold streamers in the world are raining down on the hardwood." - Brian Tung
LOL
KOBE BEAN FOOKin BRYANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah I said it......He be DA best!!
Hey, you better talk to them," Bryant advised the Clippers’ Chauncey Billups. "You better tell them to leave Ron alone. Someone is going to get their ass knocked out in front of everybody."
When it was over, Bryant was so proud to say: "There’s a couple [expletives] in this league you don’t mess with – and Metta is one of them."
by Sarge Clemins on Feb 7, 2012 10:18 PM PST up reply actions
i actually liked the style
"No one wins forever. Only thing that matters is how you face it when the cards don't come up your way. I'm not afraid." - Spider-Man (Amazing Spider-Man #475)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess." - Kobe Bryant
It was never debatable with me, everytime someone would say Lebron is the better player
I would always say, so how many teams did Lebron lead to a championship, who would you rather have the ball when the game is on the line, Kobe,
Lebron is a great player, will go down as one of the greatest, you can’t take that away from him.
And you can’t compare Oscar and Jordan’s games, different positions
different era,
and Lebron and Kobe play different positions, Lebron should average more rebounds
he’s a SF,
Kobe’s apg, for his career are on average for a SG.
it's not selective memory
if it’s always true.
he always chokes, he only actually performs in the clutch by accident.
Maybe now...
But both in their primes Kobe was better, and I don’t think anyone would actually argue that…
If you can't laugh at yourself... laugh at someone else
by x Nightwing x on Feb 7, 2012 3:58 PM PST up reply actions
Dude seriously.
I swear you’re turning into a Heat fan…
If you can't laugh at yourself... laugh at someone else
by x Nightwing x on Feb 7, 2012 4:22 PM PST up reply actions
First off, I was kidding.
And saying Lebron is better than Kobe as a Lakers fan doesn’t make you objective. It just makes you ‘not a hater’. :-P
Frankly, Bird, Magic and Jordan all disagree with you, so…
If you can't laugh at yourself... laugh at someone else
by x Nightwing x on Feb 8, 2012 11:07 AM PST up reply actions
the greats aren't right on everything
and saying LeBron’s better is objective because the evidence is there to support it.
basketball analyst say lebron, players who actually play the game say Kobe unless they didnt win a ring while they were playing for example charles barkley
and statisticians
have their own biases as to what makes who what
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
Don't Forget To Change Your Sig Tomorrow Since We're Playing Boston, SCG
Career wise? You can totally make the argument Kobe's better,
but Shaw’s right, right now Lebron’s better, objectively. At least, by all ways I can measure a guy.
Don’t get me wrong, I love all of Kobe’s qualities, and I love Kobe. I’m just trying not to be biased.
You can't be a Lakers fan if you're not biased. Turn in your fan card immediately.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein
Captain Obvious, er, MagicJohnson: Kobe, Bynum & Gasol all must step up big to beat the @76ers.
Tweetness
by SoCalGal on Feb 8, 2012 2:23 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I think if you're looking at the whole career of both guys
It’s kind of delusional to say Lebron’s career has been better thus far. Now if he goes on to win a couple rings (he has no excuse not to now) then when both their careers are over you might make the case. But until then, it’s really not close.
If you can't laugh at yourself... laugh at someone else
by x Nightwing x on Feb 11, 2012 8:43 PM PST up reply actions
Have you seen the Bobcats?
Michael Jordan is clearly not a great evaluator of talent.
Well, even before that, look at all the times he wanted Krause to draft UNC dudes rather than luminaries like Scottie Pippen and Toni Kukoc.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Better at putting up stats.
And that’s about it from a basketball standpoint. If that’s how you judge players, then go ahead. But Kobe is superior in the intangibles that make one truly great.
"I was just letting the shots fly. You know, I don't leave any bullets in the chamber."
"Everything negative- pressure, challenges- is all an opportunity for me to rise."
-Kobe Bryant
Chris Mortensen: "You know it's the 'Show-Me' State right Sam?"
"Pshh, 'Show Me.' (smirking) Yeah, I've heard that."
-Sam Bradford
yeah, its how I judge players
stats are something concrete rather than a bunch of fluff filled narrative like “Kobe has more intangibles” or “heart.”
This.
Critics of stats often fail to realize that their explanations are sometimes just as vacuous as they claim stats are, if not more. It’s one thing if you’re an experienced scout, but dismissing stats because you don’t like what they say is silly.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
no it doesn't
if you want to argue who has had a better career, maybe, but you are talking about who is the better player right now. Rings should have nothing to do with it.
Rings aren't indicative of anything,
I’m down to analyze playoff performances with extra weight, and series by series stuff, but rings don’t do that.
AMMO > LBJ.
TRUTH.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
by Ben R on Feb 9, 2012 2:18 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Word
Although, uhm, this conversation is for the 2nd Tier players like Kobe, Lebron, KD, C3P0, etc.
For me its the consistent inconsistency that concerns me - PAGFL
It's always AMMO Time, in spirit- DexterFishmore
lebron should just lock himself away and not talk for the rest of forever-LA32
This is known by all the great players in the game
There are certain things that just don’t show up in a Stat sheet. One other example is Tim Duncan. The guy doesn’t get highlights on ESPN but does the fundamentals every game in order for them to win the game. In this era he is 3rd best player behind Kobe and Shaq.
by nitotech on Feb 7, 2012 3:59 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Agree
If you can't laugh at yourself... laugh at someone else
by x Nightwing x on Feb 7, 2012 8:33 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Well right now LeBron is better
LeBron is like 27 tho, both his and Kobe’s careers are far from over. MJ at 27 had 0 chips
If you are talking about who is better right now its Lebron
if you are talking about in terms of career, legacy and where each one stands its not even close. Kobe hands down.
great stuff dude. not sure if you been on SSR much, either way, welcome!!!
THE BANDWAGON: Championship? lol you’ve gotta b kidding. - Emmceee /we aren't winning anything this year man - BlueXfalcon / We arent winning anything this year - Lakergirl / we aren’t winning anything this yurrrrr - Tkuang /I expect them to make it past the first round, but I will be very happy if they make it past the second.- Gil M. / We aren’t gonna win anything this year, dude - Aethereal / don't think we will win anything this year. Seriously-CLDPC / I’m not expecting something big from this Lakers team this season - Yoshifan
There's a debate?
"If you’re afraid to fail, then you’re probably going to fail. You know what I mean? Fuck it." -- Kobe "Black Mamba" Bryant
Lol
You should post this on Peninsula is mightier… You’d be burned at the stake
"I don't mind being the goat. I don't mind being the villain, hated. I've been that my whole career, so it's not like that's anything new. I don't mind people jumping on the bandwagon or jumping off. I just focus on playing the game." -Ron Artest
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." -Confucius
That debate of even making the comparison ended when neither of them in the last 5 years have made it to the Finals
to face each other. The debate was tired when they never played the same position and thus were the two best at their positions the only difference was one was bigger, taller, and therefore more likely to hold more statistical weight. The argument in itself of these two parties as to which one is the hottest is stale. One party has been going on far longer and if you can’t recognize how great it was/is then you missed it. This other party has had plenty of downs itself, but its been a rather consistent ride of fun.
The debate of their comparative skills is ongoing because it is the same debate as the model of rebuilding. Which star is better to build around: the consistent or explosive threat? Which endgame play is better, chucking or passing? These are the real questions behind this debate, unfortunately most people model it after certain players just for page views and to try to make it seem like the comparison is based in any sort of reality where the two should even compare to each other.
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
Don't Forget To Change Your Sig Tomorrow Since We're Playing Utah, SCG
by Marty Mart on Feb 7, 2012 8:35 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I take this back
Clearly Lebron is better because he cares about the environment. He bikes when there’s traffic and Kobe flies a helicopter….
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO KOBY!!!!!!!!!!!!
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
Don't Forget To Change Your Sig Tomorrow Since We're Playing Utah, SCG
You WIN!
![]()
KOBE BEAN FOOKin BRYANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah I said it......He be DA best!!
Hey, you better talk to them," Bryant advised the Clippers’ Chauncey Billups. "You better tell them to leave Ron alone. Someone is going to get their ass knocked out in front of everybody."
When it was over, Bryant was so proud to say: "There’s a couple [expletives] in this league you don’t mess with – and Metta is one of them."
by Sarge Clemins on Feb 8, 2012 12:19 AM PST up reply actions
They've failed to face each other each of the last 5 years
Most of those years was mainly Lebron’s fault for his team not getting there
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
Don't Forget To Change Your Sig Tomorrow Since We're Playing Boston, SCG
Dude where have you been, this has been settle eons ago by the sagacious...
Snapple

"If you’re afraid to fail, then you’re probably going to fail. You know what I mean? Fuck it." -- Kobe "Black Mamba" Bryant
by jXn on Feb 8, 2012 6:11 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
BING!!
KOBE BEAN FOOKin BRYANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah I said it......He be DA best!!
Hey, you better talk to them," Bryant advised the Clippers’ Chauncey Billups. "You better tell them to leave Ron alone. Someone is going to get their ass knocked out in front of everybody."
When it was over, Bryant was so proud to say: "There’s a couple [expletives] in this league you don’t mess with – and Metta is one of them."
by Sarge Clemins on Feb 15, 2012 2:22 AM PST up reply actions
and according to Perkins
"You don’t see Kobe [Bryant] tweeting," Perkins said. "You don’t see Michael Jordan tweeting. If you’re an elite player, plays like that don’t excite you. At the end of the day, the guys who are playing for the right reasons who are trying to win championships are not worrying about one play.
"They also are not tweeting about themselves talking about going down to No. 2. I just feel [James] is always looking for attention and he wants the world to like him."
"If you’re afraid to fail, then you’re probably going to fail. You know what I mean? Fuck it." -- Kobe "Black Mamba" Bryant
by jXn on Feb 8, 2012 6:25 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Perkins said all that?! I didn't know he could talk.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein
Captain Obvious, er, MagicJohnson: Kobe, Bynum & Gasol all must step up big to beat the @76ers.
Tweetness
We'd certainly seen no evidence of that...
If you can't laugh at yourself... laugh at someone else
by x Nightwing x on Feb 8, 2012 11:08 AM PST up reply actions
No but they should’nt do everything to put attention on them selves when tebow was getting attention Lebron did a interview about Tebow talking about they have alot in common lol They started calling the Clippers Lob City now Lebron starts talking about the lobs in miami all of a sudden. Blake gets that dunk if he wanted to congratuate Blake he could of simply said nice dunk. the fact that he puts himself in their is the same reason why Shaq put himself in everything Kobe does he wants to remain relevant
except LeBron is already relevant
and if another player tweeted something like that, we wouldn’t be calling him a narcissist.
Narcissism..
Everything that R.H. Rhead just wrote is narcissism…..it is classic narcissism. If you do it once, it might be a aberration. If it happens alot, then you are a narcissist.
A lot of other players tweeted
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
Don't Forget To Change Your Sig Tomorrow Since We're Playing Boston, SCG
another player wouldn't have added himself to the equation
another player would have simply said nice dunk.
Not nice dunk man I guess your dunk is better than mines, smh thats something a child would do.
When KObe took up for lebron he didn’t say get off his back because I remember when I was being targeted by the media it was tough. HE said get off Lebron’s back he is a good kid. simple and plain it is obvious that he was hinting at a debate which ESPN conducted for him lol
Rock . . . Rock.
Tie.
Paper . . . Paper.
Tie.
ZE DEBATE CONTINUEZZZ!!!…
"Please tell me some of these stories about Los Angeles being the basketball capital of the world." - Red Auerbach
"质量是我们的尊严。服务是我们的电梯。" ("Quality is our dignity. Service is our lift.")
"make em eat your bubbles" - Cup Noodles
Stare off . . .
Tie.
Kagi-zuki meets age-uke . . .
Tie.
JUST WOW!!!…
"Please tell me some of these stories about Los Angeles being the basketball capital of the world." - Red Auerbach
"质量是我们的尊严。服务是我们的电梯。" ("Quality is our dignity. Service is our lift.")
"make em eat your bubbles" - Cup Noodles
Yeah the debate is settled!
Jerry West said it a few years ago, and Larry Bird said it a week ago….LeBron is the best in the league and it doesn’t even come close, not my words Larry Birds
Tahitian dancing . . .
Tie.
"Please tell me some of these stories about Los Angeles being the basketball capital of the world." - Red Auerbach
"质量是我们的尊严。服务是我们的电梯。" ("Quality is our dignity. Service is our lift.")
"make em eat your bubbles" - Cup Noodles
What were Larry's exact words?
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein
Captain Obvious, er, MagicJohnson: Kobe, Bynum & Gasol all must step up big to beat the @Knicks.
Tweetness
IIRC, "If you want to win and win and win, go with Kobe. If you want to have fun the way I did with Bill Walton, go with Lebron"
Exactly. No mention of who was better.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein
Captain Obvious, er, MagicJohnson: Kobe, Bynum & Gasol all must step up big to beat the @Knicks.
Tweetness
[I[f you want to have fun, like I did with Bill Walton, play with LeBron. It would have probably been more fun to play with LeBron, but if you want to win and win and win, it’s Kobe. Not that LeBron’s not a winner, just that [Kobe’s] mindset is to go into every practice, every game, to get better.
"Please tell me some of these stories about Los Angeles being the basketball capital of the world." - Red Auerbach
"质量是我们的尊严。服务是我们的电梯。" ("Quality is our dignity. Service is our lift.")
"make em eat your bubbles" - Cup Noodles
ifu want to to have fun and play with lebron if u want to actually win championships play with Kobe
basically he was sayin Lebron stats are better but Kobe is better
I think he was basically saying...
[I[f you want to have fun, like I did with Bill Walton, play with LeBron. It would have probably been more fun to play with LeBron, but if you want to win and win and win, it’s Kobe. Not that LeBron’s not a winner, just that [Kobe’s] mindset is to go into every practice, every game, to get better.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein
Captain Obvious, er, MagicJohnson: Kobe, Bynum & Gasol all must step up big to beat the @Knicks.
Tweetness
So apparently...
Having fun = better player
Winning = not the better player
"If you have a debate with a scholar, you can win. If you have a debate with an ignorant person, you will definitely lose."
"You're welcome." -Kobe
Yes
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein
Captain Obvious, er, MagicJohnson: Kobe, Bynum & Gasol all must step up big to beat the @Knicks.
Tweetness
I would think winning would be a lot more fun than anything else, but that’s just me.
Lebron is probably playing like the best player in the game for this reg. season, but it’s still debatable. And there’s no real evidence to prove or disprove that, it’s all subjective. Durant, Howard, and Kobe(leading scorer) all have cases as well as to themselves being the top player in the nba. Stats can say one thing, but does that make it true? Chandler leads the league in TS% and ORtg, but does that mean he’s the best offensive player in the game or even one of the best offensive players in the game this year? No, of course not. He’s stronger at defense than offense, so if those #‘s were truly evidence, he’d be in the AS game for sure, but he isn’t, so that should tell you something.
The thing about Lebron is that he’s had 3 great chances to win the title, and has failed each time, and failed miserably by quitting on his teams the past 2 years. That’s not an ingredient in my recipe book of success, but maybe in lebron’s make-believe world.
by express34texas on Feb 17, 2012 1:18 PM PST up reply actions
Kobe's not in the discussion for best player this year,
as well as I think he’s played, he’s been inconsistent compared to Lebron and Howard.
Chandler’s stats are easy to explain; his usage rate is so low that the TS% and ORtg are mostly superficial. He scores efficiently because he almost exclusively takes bunnies and tips. TS% and ORtg aren’t the only statistical indicators of offensive ability, and using this as evidence that stats aren’t true is lulzy.
Also, the AS game argument is pretty weak. Lots of players should be all-stars who aren’t, general fan knowledge/voter knowledge is not perfect or unbiased. Griffin starting is a great indicator of that.
Well, that’s simply not true. Howard’s been very inconsistent this year, too. Lebron has yet to ever establish himself in any given year as the indisputable, premier player of the league(regular season + playoffs). Kobe is firmly still an elite player, at the very least a top 5 player in the league. Kobe’s had some bad ‘shooting’ games, true. I emphasize ‘shooting.’ But, even in almost all of those games, he’s still contributing in many other ways, and the opposing defenses are still geared towards stopping him first even when he’s struggling, allowing for his teammates to have excellent chances of succeeding.
I bring him Chandler’s stats because many people believe he’s an amazing center this year, and the fact is, is that he’s still never been an AS throughout his 11-year career, and how overrated it is to look solely at stats. I believe Chandler is a near AS this year, but probably not quite, and it’s not exactly a great year for centers, or last few years at that. Lebron’s advanced stats say he’s amazing, by far the best player in the league, but while he may possibly be the best player in the league, he’s not by far the best player.
The AS game is not weak argument. Your example of Griffin isn’t a good one, because he absolutely deserves to be in the AS game, and it’s between him and Love for the 2nd forward spot in the west, which is highly debatable. I recently looked back at the last 11 AS games, including this year, and I only found 2 selections, maybe 3 with melo this year to be egregious, and that’s iverson in 09 and 10. While some of the starters should’ve been reserves, they still belonged in the game, and the fans pick the players most deserving by performance pretty well.
As for the coaches, they can’t pick their own players. There’s bias any selection method, but I see very little bias in allowing the coaches to do that. What hidden agenda would they have for leaving certain players out of the game? For the most part, the AS game includes the top 20 players through the first half of each season, and the last 2-3 reserves from each conf. is always going to be very debatable no matter what selection process the league would adopt.
Dirk probably doesn’t belong there, but while his #‘s are low for him, in reality, they’re not that bad and his team is doing well, despite losing chandler/butler, while kidd is showing his age, and odom sucks. Dirk is at least a borderline AS, besides, he just led his team to the title last year. The finals mvp is almost always going to be in the AS game. I wouldn’t necessarily say that the AS game always consists of the top 24 players, besides that’s always going to be debatable as well, but every elite player is always there, as long as they’re healthy enough throughout the beginning of the season. Maybe Deng doesn’t deserve it, but I think he does: he’s a good offensive player, a very good defensive player, and his team is doing very well. There’s really few bad selections ever. Melo might be performing well below par for himself, but he’s still a good player, not a superstar, but solid, but I would put him at borderline AS for this year, and don’t have too big of a problem of him being in the game.
by express34texas on Feb 17, 2012 4:35 PM PST up reply actions
WHOOSH
Howard’s been very inconsistent this year, too. Lebron has yet to ever establish himself in any given year as the indisputable, premier player of the league(regular season + playoffs)
Howard’s "inconsistent’ is being the best defender in the league, leading the league in rebounding, scoring at an above average efficiency, and still being a strong scorer.
Lebron’s postseason struggles have nothing to do with how he’s played this season. This season, he’s tearing it up, as much as I hate him and expect him to fail in the postseason.
I bring him Chandler’s stats because many people believe he’s an amazing center this year, and the fact is, is that he’s still never been an AS throughout his 11-year career, and how overrated it is to look solely at stats.
No one in the world calls Chandler an amazing offensive center, and the stats don’t overrate him unless you look exclusively at one/two factors instead of all of them. Like, y’know, I pointed out. This “Stats lie, look at Chandler” argument is crap.
The AS game is not weak argument. Your example of Griffin isn’t a good one, because he absolutely deserves to be in the AS game, and it’s between him and Love for the 2nd forward spot in the west, which is highly debatable.
No, it’s not even remotely close who deserves to start, it’s Love. And “Absolutely deserves to be in the AS game” is crap too. Him, Lamarcus, and Millsap are all pretty damn near each other as far as who the 2nd best PF in the west is, and you could very easily make the case that Griffin, who scores at the same efficiency despite having an elite point guard dropping him dimes, and is easily the worst defender of the 3, doesn’t deserve a spot on the AS squad. I don’t care that he made it, but him starting is a clear example of how the AS game voting process follows storylines and marketability over reality.
Bunch of other stuff that’s way too long to quote
If All-stars were always chosen correctly, you would never hear any complaints. Generally the guys who get in are at the least borderline, you’re right, but starting lineups are wrong a lot. (Like this year, for instance) This also doesn’t change the fact that some players are simply more deserving than others who do get in, wether it’s by a small margin or not. Who was voted to be good by random fans that may or may not actually be knowledgeable is not a good way to argue who is or isn’t good. If you don’t like Chandler, and think he’s overrated, cool, use the plethora of information outside of “Not an all-star” that’s available.
I don’t care about this argument, seriously, so I’m not gonna reply anymore. It just bothers me seeing “Statz lie111!” and you using Chandler’s efficiency rating as the reasoning.
Yea, and Kobe’s the defensive leader on the lakers, is one of the top 2-3 non-PG passers in the league, and leads the league in scoring, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s immune from having a bad shooting game once in awhile. Howard’s had some awful games this year. You should look at his game log. He’s still the best center in the game, but he’s still foul prone and offensively challenged sometimes, and isn’t all there mentally sometimes. Opponents can get into his head, and he lets his emotions control his play.
Athereal, with all due respect, you’re completely wrong about Chandler. I’ve been having an ongoing discussion on another blog, and there’s a couple of guys who think Chandler is an elite offensive player. I never said that and don’t believe that, but they do, and so do a lot of other stat heads. I know it’s idiotic, but that’s what they believe. We seem to be on the same page regarding advanced stats. Advanced stats love lebron, but that doesn’t mean he’s necessarily the best player in the game, that’s all I’m saying. Sure, lebron’s been tearing it up this year, but so have several other players as well.
That’s opinion of Griffin. I disagree, that’s fine, but he definitely deserves to be in the game, that’s the bottom line. Griffin’s AS selection is correct. He’s arguably the best PF In the league. And no, him being a starter isn’t a clear example of storylines and marketability. He’s a legit player, and unless he gets hurt or falls off a lot, he will probably make one of the 3 all-nba teams.
Who’s to say AS aren’t chosen correctly? You? No matter what system we have, there’s going to be lots of complaints. I don’t have much of a problem with any of the AS. Maybe 7-8 are borderline AS, as are the 25-32. I say if you don’t want to be a borderline AS, then improve your game to get into the legit top 10-15 players in the league, so you don’t leave your AS selection up to chance a little. Fans get their choice of who they want to see as starters, so really, the starting lineups are never wrong, and rarely does a starter not deserve AS consideration based on performance.
Ok, maybe you think differently about stats. I never said stats lie. You’re not listening. I’m just saying there’s a lot more to it than just looking at the stats. I already explained about chandler. I’m not making this stuff up. His offensive advanced stats are amazing for some of the stats, and many statheads are peeved he’s not in the AS game. His advanced stats don’t lie that’s what they are, but it doesn’t mean he’s an elite player, that’s what I’m saying, and I think you agree with that assessment. I bring this up about chandler because this a huge argument that most people have for saying that lebron is the best in the land. I’m not saying that you can’t use this as part of someone’s argument, but that there’s a lot more to it than just that. Sure, he looks like he’s the best player in the reg. season so far this season, but not by much, and according to most stats, it says he’s way better than Kobe, and that’s just not true.
by express34texas on Feb 17, 2012 7:28 PM PST up reply actions
Who did the greatest Talent Eval. of all time said?
Oh yeah…..LeBron….Oh Mr. West, wait and so did Larry Bird say LeBron is better? sigh oh well kobe
This is like deja vu.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein
Captain Obvious, er, MagicJohnson: Kobe, Bynum & Gasol all must step up big to beat the @Blazers.
Tweetness
Yup.
Easy-to-debunk deja vu.
"Please tell me some of these stories about Los Angeles being the basketball capital of the world." - Red Auerbach
"质量是我们的尊严。服务是我们的电梯。" ("Quality is our dignity. Service is our lift.")
"make em eat your bubbles" - Cup Noodles

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