Offseason Planning: Bigs
After years of solid, consistent play from the Lakers' primary corps of bigs in Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, and Andrew Bynum, witnessing last season, filled with ups and downs, slumps and rises, was a bizarre experience. Each of the three had parts of the year in which they surpassed their career norms as well as times when they played woefully beneath them, with almost none of those periods intersecting, something that contributed to last season's turmoil. Gasol began the year on a stellar, MVP-level tear before the continued stress of playing too many minutes triggered a season-long decline that resulted in his massive meltdown during the playoffs. Conversely, Bynum, who missed the start of the season due to knee surgery in the off-season, started the year slowly as he got back into form before erupting following the All-Star Break into a defensive dervish at the heart of the Lakers' 17-1 streak. Finally, Odom had arguably the best year of his career during the regular season, putting to rest the almost cliched concerns about his consistency with borderline All-Star play that earned him the Sixth Man of the Year award before he, like Gasol, was highly ineffective during the playoffs.
With Mike Brown taking the helm of the team, the bigs will continue to be the primary fulcrum of the Lakers at both ends of the floor. While the defensive principles of the team will stay roughly analogous to the defense that powered the Lakers streak after the ASG, the offense will switch to the Spurs' playbook that will incorporate the talents of the Lakers' bigs in a different manner than the triangle, although with many of the same principles. Barring a consummation of the long-rumored Dwight Howard deal, the Lakers off-season activity with their bigs will involve picking a suitable backup for the five to avoid the fatigue problems that helped derail the Lakers' season last year. After the jump, we will review how Brown's playbook will utilize our bigs, the adjustments they will have to make, and how the Lakers can fill the fourth or fifth big spots in the rotation in free agency.
As I've noted in both of my previous posts, pick-and-roll play will be a much more integral part of the Lakers' offense next season. It certainly will not to be the degree of say a Steve Nash or Chris Paul-run squad, but regularly enough to constitute a significant shift from the triangle, in which its use was much more limited. Moreover, this will also imply a greater emphasis on screen setting, both on and off the ball, to create opportunities to score; this again is a noted contrast, if not to the triangle, then to the heavy isolation and straight-up post diet that typified the Lakers' offense last season. All three of the Lakers' primary bigs are able screen setters, although there rarely was an opportunity to demonstrate this last year between the offense's stagnation and Kobe's usual preference of working in isolation rather than pulling an additional defender with a pick. Moreover, only Bynum is unable to run both the pick-and-roll and pick-and-pop, as his range extends to about 10-15 feet at most, and he arguably compensates for that by being the better screen setter due to his size. In any case, questions of who the ball-handler will ultimately be on these plays aside, there should be largely no problems on the bigs' part in this regard.
Although it might be getting trite at this juncture, let us turn to NBA Playbook's Sebastian Pruiti again, as he provides an invaluable service in illustrating many of the sets Brown might incorporate from the Duncan-Robinson Spurs, his professed model for next year's offense. Seeing this, it is easier to place many of the comments that Brown made during his initial press conference, vague as they may have sounded initially. For starters, Brown's emphasis on "early offense" and "attacking the clock" refers not to running the ball specifically, but quickly establishing position on the other end and executing a play without wasting the shot clock. Specifically, both bigs become somewhat interchangeable, as the first big down the floor will immediately go to the basket while the trailing big acquires a pass from the guard at the top of the key and is able to hit the big as he posts up before the defense is set. I mentioned this briefly when discussing the changes in point guard roles, but this "early offense" philosophy harkens back to the Lakers' offense during the '08-'09 season, and provides one way of solving the stagnation issues of the previous year by quickly getting into a set.
Outside of delayed transition, the regular setup for post plays looks remarkably similar to the triangle as the big sets up down low while the guard gives them the ball from the wing. What changes here, especially as versus last season, is that the weakside big will move to the opposite block, making for a double block set, and forcing the defense to decide whether to cover the post player with the ball one-on-one or risk an easy dump pass to the opposite big if they double. Frequently, post plays last season between Bynum and Gasol would essentially be each other taking turns on the low block while the other stayed at the high post, negating a lot of the advantage of having the two play volleyball on the offense boards due to their size. If the concept of big-to-big passing sounds familiar, one again can look at the '08-'09 season, in which Gasol and Odom were remarkably adept at playing off each other in the paint, and Brown will look to replicate much of that with Bynum included as well.
The bringing in of Ettore Messina will introduce a few wrinkles into the offense and defense courtesy of his time with the European game. One set in particular that might produce immediate dividends is Messina's preferred method for posting up, in which the big who is posting up comes off a down screen set by the guard, which allows the big to get the ball with good post position. This is something that Gasol, who demonstrated an increasingly obvious inability to gain good post position by backing down his man -- and indeed, often got him pushed away from the basket, forcing time to be burned off the clock so the play could be reset -- could definitely benefit from. Moreover, if that pass is unavailable, the screen creates a double block set that can be taken advantage of by simply passing to the guard who set the initial cross screen, who can hit the other big as he starts posting up.
If all of this sounds wonderfully synergistic, it's because it is and it fits well with Brown's San Antonio sets that I've mentioned above. Triangle influences, another thing Brown referred to in his press conference, are definitely present in these sets, so the learning curve won't be especially steep. However, the changes will work towards solving many of the stagnation issues, particularly insofar as the players getting into the sets, that plagued the Lakers last season. This is not necessarily an indictment of the triangle, as the team's execution of it was horrendous, but as I noted when the Lakers were conducting their coaching search, having to learn a new system from a new voice would be beneficial, as it would give the team something tangible to focus on. Granted, my initial underlying thought when I stated that was that Rick Adelman would be that new voice, but the Spurs' playbook is nothing to scoff at either.
In an interview Mike Brown had with LakersTV yesterday, he also revealed that Messina might implement some zone defenses for the Lakers could use. Many zones that are run in Europe are not allowed in the NBA due to rule differences, but as Rick Carlisle showed continuously last postseason, it can be a very effective situational tool against certain lineups or teams, and is something that the Lakers are able to use with their size in the frontcourt. Having Messina as an assistant capable of managing that is very analogous to the role Syracuse's Jim Boeheim, a prolific user of the 2-3 zone, played for the national team. Besides this, the Lakers' defense should look familiar to that post-ASG with Bynum as the anchor of the defense, except the team will go into the season with that as the gameplan instead of trying to revamp the entire defense at midseason.
What last season also showed emphatically outside of the above concerns was the importance of the fourth and fifth bigs on the bench. Although the degree to which Gasol has to bear responsibility for not rising above his inexplicable slump as the season progressed is debatable, there is no doubt that the lack of a consistent backup on the bench to relieve him contributed to his decline after his MVP start to the season. Theo Ratliff and Joe Smith, both of whom miserably failed at this role, are both free agents and definitely will not be with the team next season. Moreover, between the ever-present risk of a Bynum injury and the fact that Gasol and Odom are now on the wrong side of 30, it behooves the team to invest in some backups capable of playing 10-15 minutes a night, not only for cases of injury or foul trouble, but to simply be capable of holding down the starters' minutes during the regular season.
Internal Solutions
Derrick Caracter entered last season with perhaps outsized expectations for a player taken 58th in the draft, as he had demonstrated a refined post game and nice touch in summer league that led many to believe, yours truly included, that he could be a decent backup down the road for the Lakers, who appeared to have gotten a steal that fell on draft night due to character and weight concerns. This in part contributed to the outrage that he wasn't getting minutes after Ratliff got injured and it became clear that Gasol was becoming overwhelmed by the amount of minutes he was playing, although Caracter could have been complete garbage if it meant that Gasol was getting adequate rest. After Bynum's return, Caracter's minutes were very limited over the rest of the season, it is difficult to divine anything into spot minutes being played by a rookie at the end of the bench.
What was damaging to Caracter's prospects, and especially in contrast to fellow rookie Devin Ebanks, was his rather poor showing in D-League play. Given that any NBA prospect worth their salt is expected to perform well against the level of competition in the D-League, Caracter did not give an inspired performance, averaging 8.0 ppg and 7.6 rpg on 41.2% shooting in five games while fouling at a prodigious rate. His attack on a waitress at an IHOP certainly didn't do him any favors either, and it is an open question as to whether his services will be retained next season, as the Lakers are free to waive him as they please. Certainly, it space is available on the roster, it would behoove the Lakers to keep Caracter to see how he continues in his development, but parting ways with him would definitely also be understandable.
Outside of Caracter, the Lakers have only solutions that would work in smallball lineups, such as playing Ron Artest and Matt Barnes at the four. Artest's steadily decreasing vertical and lack of athleticism have made him a liability at the position, particularly in terms of rebounding, and he lacks the ball-handling ability to be a threat to bigs from the perimeter. Barnes, on the other hand, is an interesting stretch four option, one that he has played in the past with Golden State and Phoenix, as he makes good cuts, attacks the boards, and on a good day, can sink shots from outside. Given the Lakers' personnel, however, it is unlikely that either ever plays at the four consistently outside of serious foul trouble or injury situations and they are not definitive solutions to this problem.
Free Agency
Thankfully, this year's free agent class is chock full of the type of big men the Lakers are looking for. The top of the Lakers' list, for a number of reasons, should be the Pacers' Jeff Foster. A solid pick-and-roll defender unusually mobile for his size, Foster is an exceptional rebounder, with his 20.7 rebound rate ranking seventh in the league last season. Although he is limited on offense and has a Perkins-esque tendency to set illegal screens, he represents one of the best choices available for the minimum or similar. Moreover, he has a good rapport with Artest going back to their time in Indiana, and anything that acts a stabilizing force for Metta World Peace at this point in his career is a positive thing. Continuing to mine the Pacers angle, Josh McRoberts is another interesting option considering his ability to shoot from range and relatively young age (24), although he is a terrible defensive player. Regardless, his strengths might earn him more than the minimum from some team. A cheaper option in the same line would be Troy Murphy; although he was completely ineffectual for New Jersey and Boston last season, he is just one season removed from a 18.07 PER year, and he brings a tantalizing combination of shooting and rebounding to the table.
Next we have Kwame Brown. Yes, that Kwame Brown. He of the stone hands, mind-bogglingly terrible decision-making, and all of the things we try not to ever recall of a bygone era when he was the Lakers' starter. Thankfully, Kwame has proven that he is at least somewhat competent at two things: defense and rebounding. With this current corps of bigs, there is no reason whatsoever for Kwame to touch the ball on offense, and for all his faults, he's a perfectly good backup for 10-15 minutes a game. Also joining Kwame in free agency from Charlotte is Joel Przybilla, who was an outstanding rebounder and shot blocker while healthy, but was hobbled for last season after coming back from a knee injury. If he can assure the Lakers that he's healthy, he would be another solid selection for the backup five spot.
The rest of the possible selections include Dan Gadzuric, a somewhat injury-prone yet good pick-and-roll defensive big who can run the floor; Kurt Thomas, who played solid ball for the Bulls last year but is 39 and you wonder how much longer he can keep it up; Shelden Williams, another draft bust who has reinvented himself as a good defensive player who can rebound and set good screens; and Reggie Evans, a rebounding dynamo who brings little else to the table. Past here, you have the assorted flotsam such as Melvin Ely, Yi Jianlian, and Chris Wilcox, all of whom are barely adequate even for the fifth big slot.
Trades
Dwight Howard. That's it. If a trade is available and the terms are relatively reasonable, it's a no-brainer. For all of Bynum's improvement last year and how much of a force he was after the ASG, he still doesn't compare to Howard's utter dominance of the defensive end, and Howard would single-handedly extend the Lakers' title window. Past him, there really aren't any bigs available that are worth giving up a member of our key frontcourt trio, and it is highly unlikely that the Lakers are able to make a trade for the lower end of their rotation given the poor assets they have and the myriad of options in free agency. If Odom is traded for Andre Iguodala or Monta Ellis, both of whom have been mentioned in reports as potential trade targets, the Lakers may ask for a backup four or five back to help fill Odom's hole in the rotation, but it is highly unlikely they receive anything better than that.
In any case, any Howard or Odom trade notwithstanding, our primary big rotation will look as it has the previous two years, with Brown's and Messina's new playbook hopefully able to make better use of both Bynum's and Gasol's talents in tandem than the triangle has in the past. Given that this new system will require Kobe to be more of a distributor and ball-handler in the pick-and-roll, it would not be incorrect to say that more of the offensive focus is gradually moving to the bigs, as one would hope Kobe will not repeat his insanely high usage rate from last year, and one could certainly do worse than the Spurs' playbook in incorporating the talent of three very talented bigs in Bynum, Gasol, and Odom. As far as the back end of the rotation, while Foster is a preferred choice, it would be hard for the Lakers to go wrong picking a fourth and fifth big among the selections above, and seeing as nearly all of them are likely available for the minimum, there is absolutely no reason penny-pinching should play a role as it has in the past. The Lakers' championship aspirations are tied to the strength of their corps of bigs, and with Brown's playbook and a set of good backups, there is no reason not to expect the Lakers back in the title hunt next season.
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Foster would be great
his per-36 rebounding numbers are excellent. Only problem is I don’t think he wants to leave Indy anytime soon.
Chukwudiebere Maduabum FTW!!!!!!!
twitter
lol Kwame winning the vote
I like the idea of McRoberts. A fourth big doesn’t need to be terrific and he probably wouldn’t play much, but at 24 years old he can improve and I like his shooting ability.
CALL UP JESUS MONTERO!
wasn't mike brown talking about bringing in varejao?
whatever happened to that?
"Thoughts are aplenty. Most of 'em not good." - Derek Fisher
i really can't stand the dude personally.
but he sure does hustle.
"Thoughts are aplenty. Most of 'em not good." - Derek Fisher
i cant either.
but yes he does.
i dont know if i’d want him in a laker jersey though, hustle or not.
by tiger child on Aug 17, 2011 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
God, I hope not.
You're only a success for the moment that you complete a successful act. - Tex Winter
Tweetness
I like that guy
my friends call him carlito
Always Lurking. Always. Yes. But not that often.
I always like being the hunter, I’m going after something. It doesn’t matter that I have one now, that means nothing to me. I have five (NBA titles), next year I’m playing like I don’t have five, you know what I mean? I’m playing for that one. I’m not looking over my shoulder and seeing who is coming behind me, I’m coming to get something else.
-Kobe Bryant
We don't have the means to get him
Unless we trade Odom, and even Varajeo’s All-Defense caliber play on that end doesn’t justify that. If we were getting Varajeo and Sessions back (for say Odom and Caracter), then you would have to stop and think about it though.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
You can only get Sessions with it
Since Varajeo’s contract doesn’t fit into the exception.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
I hope we dont get Sessions. Sure, he is far better than any option available right now to the Lakers, but he has also never played on a good team, and many people (myself included) think he is one of those empty stats guys, like Zach Randolph from 5 years ago or so.
His defense is also atrocious. Varejao is a hustler and very good defender, but his offensive skills are awful, and he makes way too much money to only play 15 minutes a game.
I think it's hard to be an "empty stat" guy when you're primarily a pass-first, P&R guard
Which he was pretty damn good at, averaging 0.87 PPP as the ball-handler on the pick-and-roll. According to Synergy, he was also surprisingly good in isolation also, with a 0.95 PPP mark as well. If he’s capable of getting that kind of production even with shitty teammates in both Milwaukee and Cleveland (as he was horribly miscast as a spot-up shooter in Minnesota), then I’m inclined to think he can do better when he has better people to pass to and work off. Randolph was an “empty stat” player because he was a giant black hole on offense and a volume shooter who scored fairly efficiently and rebounded a lot to get himself good per minute numbers. By the nature of his position, it’s a bit hard for Sessions to put up solid numbers without at least being good at running an offense and distributing the rock.
As for Varejeo, he would only come in a scenario in which we traded Odom, so he would get adequate minutes. I wouldn’t do a Odom/Caracter for Varejeo/Sessions deal if say Iggy was available, but it would be something to think about. If we can get Sessions with the trade exception, for instance, while only giving up a first rounder or Ebanks, that’s a no-brainer, IMO.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Picture Caption:
“You dunked the ball! Yesh you did ohh yesh you did! Good job Pauly Wowly, you dunked the ball real good! Yesh you did!!!”
Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer
by afrikabamboodle on Aug 17, 2011 5:12 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
lol, this
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Kwaaaaaaaaaaame Brown!!!!!!!!!
Hahahahah I will never forget Stephen A. Smith’s rant about “Kwaw-may” after the Lakers traded him for Pau
This is a very long article to "NOT" mention the Point Gaurd delimma!!!!
Mike Brown could diagram a Rubix cube, But, if he doesn’t have a true Point Gaurd to execute it, it’s all a waste! Article says bring in DH. Okay, who’s gonna feed the post “Kurt Warner?” You see, you get “NO” touchdown passes from a QB if he Can’t throw the ball.! We have NO QB’s/True Point Gaurds!! So (how the hell) are we gonna effectively feed the post? That’s Backwards!! Get the Point Gaurd first!! Then we won’t have to ask that question we’ve all asked ourselves during pick-up games: “How do I get the ball to Mr or MRS Jabbar?” (that BIG person on your team who’s always closer to the basket than you!!)
Yeah, I think you missed something a few weeks back.
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2011/7/27/2279626/offseason-planning-point-guards
You're only a success for the moment that you complete a successful act. - Tex Winter
Tweetness
You clearly missed the big, bolded title that indicated the scope of the article
Which should have been a dead giveaway even if you didn’t know about the point guard article I had written previously. As a side note, having a care for grammar and spelling also exponentially increases the degree to which another person tends to care about your post as well.
Moreover, your concern is rather misplaced. Feeding the post, as in straight-up entry passes, isn’t a problem, and certainly isn’t something that requires a traditional point guard. If you haven’t been watching Lakers basketball for the past decade, the triangle, in which there is no true point guard, creates opportunities for entry passes on the wings as part of the regular offense. You have nearly the exact same type of post entry sets in Brown’s playbook, except with some new wrinkles such as the double block sets, and possibly Messina’s use of cross screens for better positioning. Indeed, some of the entry passes won’t even be executed by guards, as I noted the early offense entry pass comes from the trailing big who sets up at the top of the key to hit the first big down the floor who went straight to the basket.
Where a traditional point guard is more important — and why Brown’s offense is much more conventional than the triangle — is that there is more pick-and-roll in the halfcourt, which I discuss at length in the point guard article, and will leave to your leisure to peruse.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
You do realize that a certain Kobe Bryant is still in that backcourt, right?
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
yeah
But you have to consider the fact that kobe is aging, has some leg issues and is going to need more time on the bench in order to save energy for the playoffs, It could be said that Kobe is the best 2 guard in the league, but the fact is that, he isn’t going to be playing as many minutes. I havn’t read your PG article but I will say this, If the lakers could FINALLY realize that Shannon Brown is better then D fish/Blake at the 1 then maybe we can work on getting a backup 2 guard and some backup big men.
Not saying that he isn't aging and that the Lakers don't have to account for that
(Although Kobe certainly doesn’t rest on his laurels; see the Dirk-esque fadeaway he added to his repertoire in the Drew League game)
But his presence alone assures that we have a relatively decent backcourt presence, no matter ends up happening with our point guard situation. He’ll still play 30-32 mpg in any case, and certainly won’t be on a Duncan-esque rest schedule for the playoffs, not to mention that he won’t stand for it.
As for Brown being better at the one, I’d disagree with that pretty strongly considering that we’re changing to a more conventional offense, and Brown would be hilariously terrible trying to run a pick-and-roll with his nonexistent handle and lack of court vision. In any case, he’s more than likely leaving the team, and someone will be picked up to fill the hole in the backcourt in free agency.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
But
To be honest I dont see how shannon brown has terrible court vision, ok he isn’t a passing jesus but with time he can get better. Not to mention in Brown’s (coach) offense we are talking deep post positioning for a lot of shots, aka entry passes. While I agree that currently he might not be the fix needed, if worked with, I think Shannon could become the guard we need at the one, but only if the organization takes the time to work with him, and to be honest, at the moment, anything is better then Blake and Fish who produce nothing with their minutes.
I will concede that Kobe = Instant offensive pressure, but remember that there are two guards that make up the backcourt and Kobe will be playing low thirty’s when it comes to minutes, aka we need solid guards to fill in the backcourt. We need a new point guard, and a new backup point guard (both need to do their damn jobs) and then I might say that our backcourt is alright. And if Shannon brown stays, and continues to produce on his minutes that come from Kobe’s bench time then the 2 position is filled up pretty well.
Another position that I find lacking is the small forward, ok, Artest, according to brits is one of the greatest players of all time, but lets face it. His role in LA is to be a defensive a** Hole and to hit the occasional 3, I am just saying but we have on of the best defensive teams out there, right now we need offense, and a more effective outside threat. Secondly, Walton needs to go, he has ring rided for too long and for way to much money,he must be dropped just for his prductivity not to mention his insane 5.4 mil yearly salary, for 1.7 PPG and 1.1 SPG. Trade him away, trade him for a third round draft pick if someone offers it. Second (on the topic of young players) ebanks needs more minutes, sorry to say this but ebanks sat the bench behind walton? ebanks has some skill (and for his 5 minutes had 3.1 PPG i.e on 30 minutes that’s 18.6 PPG), and right now the lakers are showing that knack for benching potential future starters and second stringers. Give ebanks 12 minutes a game and I guarantee his game develops.
We need to sign Trey Johnson, he is actually good, like he is actually a good player, give him a year in whatever euroleague he is playing him then offer him a guaranteed contract for like 2 mil, watch him go to work.
OK my synopsis on the roster is complete.
correction
I didn’t mean to type 1.1 SPG for Walton I meant to write 1.1 APG, walton would never have a good defensive stat rofl.
Shannon is not point guard material.
You're only a success for the moment that you complete a successful act. - Tex Winter
Tweetness
Brown can barely make a bloody entry pass, let alone run a conventional offense
That he failed to get the point guard spot in a system in which the point guard doesn’t have to really do anything says volumes about his competence at the position. He has a terrible handle, has very little awareness when dribbling, and has basically never been asked to run a pick-and-roll consistently down the floor, which he would have to as the point guard of this offense. The sole time he was useful was when he looked like a borderline SMOY candidate at the start of last season because he was shooting the lights out, and that dropped off fairly quickly.
This is all a moot point regardless. All reports indicate that he’s leaving and the Lakers will look to get a backup two guard in free agency, which I also wrote an entire article about. That article also comments on your thoughts on the remainder on the wings.
Secondly, Walton needs to go, he has ring rided for too long and for way to much money,he must be dropped just for his prductivity not to mention his insane 5.4 mil yearly salary, for 1.7 PPG and 1.1 SPG. Trade him away, trade him for a third round draft pick if someone offers it.
lolololol. He’s so terrible we have to trade him for a pick that doesn’t exist. That gave me a laugh. In any case, there’s zero chance whatsoever we trade Walton considering that you have to find someone willing to take his contract and the possibility of that is nonexistent.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Yeah
Idk, shannon couldn’t run an offense you are correct about that.
The sad part is that the organization really couldn’t trade away walton, im just baffled as to why his salary is so damn high, when his contract was drafted up a few years ago, was his agent that convincing.
We need to get trey johnson out of Bolivia or whatever euro league he is going to play for
Bibby is on the market, and his is a beast, I left a comment on your PG article about you comment directed at Bibby. He is good, its just that in the last three years he has had injury problems, had reduced minutes because of said injuries and has no role in miami due to LeChoke being the one that runs the offense most of the time. If Bibby is given say, D fish’s minutes and actually handles the ball we can see a performance reminiscent of his performance on Sacramento and Atlanta, he is cheap, and has a few years left in the tank and we can unload the waaaaay overpriced Steve Blake, give Fish like 12 minutes coming off the bench for bibby and everyone is happy.
Bibby is a terrible defender
Even worse than Fisher, which is saying something. Nor is he the pick-and-roll operator we need considering that he can’t penetrate off the pick and his court vision wasn’t that great even with Sacramento. His sole utility is a spot-up shooter, and while he’s great at that, it’s not really that much of an upgrade over what we have now considering his defensive limitations. Would much rather get someone like Mike Dunleavy in free agency, as he’s a much better overall offensive player in addition to being a shooter, and has some playmaking ability to go along with that.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Diagrams sound easy! They still must be executed.
Messina will make that easier. The problem is that every defense won’t let us run it smoothly. When that happens, we have to use phase 2 scenarios which usually are on the fly, and take quick reaction skills to fulfill. As in transition, we make some of the most bone-headed passes on fast breaks, per lack of opencourt point-play. The waisting of about 6-10 points per night is consistant with what we’ve been working with. I like Messina and Brown. But I also like D. Williams and CP3. A system won’t be enough to win it all.!! We need a Point, and those extra big backups! “If” our defense was as good last year, “as it will be this year,” we’d have blown even more fastbreak opportunities! The need for someone to control tempo still remains!! (KOBE needs Veteran backcourt help to extend his career!) And Bynum and Gasol need to grasp this new system, and actually pass to each other, something that’s taking too long to develop. They should be Dominant together!! But their not! Hmmm, I know what could help them though, a trade for a solid Veteran Pointgaurd. Then everything gets “much” easier. Hopefully Goudelock can hit consistantly from the outside! Jim Buss needs to address this, and Not put it all on KOBE! We could win 2 of the next 3 Titles, if we granted our Big’s a veteran Point……
The problem is that every defense won’t let us run it smoothly. When that happens, we have to use phase 2 scenarios which usually are on the fly, and take quick reaction skills to fulfill.
Each of the plays I listed above has secondary or tertiary options that are available and will obviously be taught as part of the playbook. If I wanted to be exhaustive, this article would be a couple thousand words longer when the point was to simply illustrate the principles of the offense that the bigs fit into and to note the similarities to the triangle.
As in transition, we make some of the most bone-headed passes on fast breaks, per lack of opencourt point-play. The waisting of about 6-10 points per night is consistant with what we’ve been working with.
Fast breaks != early offense. Working in delayed transition to quickly set up a play doesn’t require a point guard, and you’re not trying to necessarily outrun the defense, but initiate a play while the defense is still getting set. As I noted in the article, the standard play will be an entry pass from the trailing big to the first big who went directly to the basket, and that doesn’t require the guard to do anything other than toss the ball to the trailing big at the top of the key. You’re right in that the first unit showed that they were generally terrible in open-court transition opportunities last year, but that’s very different from what the team will be running next year.
But I also like D. Williams and CP3. A system won’t be enough to win it all.!! We need a Point, and those extra big backups!
We don’t need a future HoF point. Hell, it doesn’t even have to be a point guard — we just need someone to run a pick-and-roll in the halfcourt. The solution that exist internally are imperfect but should suffice for the most part. Obviously, getting a point who is good at a conventional offense would be great, but it’s not a massive deal breaker.
"If" our defense was as good last year, "as it will be this year," we’d have blown even more fastbreak opportunities! The need for someone to control tempo still remains!!
Again, confusing fast breaks with early offense. Controlling “tempo” is important, true, but that’s done through proper execution on both ends and has nothing really to do with having a point guard.
And Bynum and Gasol need to grasp this new system, and actually pass to each other, something that’s taking too long to develop. They should be Dominant together!! But their not!
It’s taken long to develop because they’ve had long stretches the last three years in which they haven’t been on the court with each other, and frankly, there weren’t a whole lot of sets available beyond some high-low action for them to work off one another. We haven’t really seen how they would work in an offense designed around having two bigs with their skill-sets, which Brown is bringing in, and given that most of these sets are relatively simple, it’s not a long shot to say that they’ll react well to it, particularly Gasol.
Hmmm, I know what could help them though, a trade for a solid Veteran Pointgaurd. Then everything gets "much" easier.
A point guard has little to do with how they play off each other. In the double block sets for instance, any pass in that scenario is block to block and predicated on the defense. Only time both are involved with a point guard are pick-and-roll sets in which the pick not setting the pick tries to claim deep post position to give the ball-handler more options off the pick, but that again has little to do with how they directly play off each other.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
There's no need to outrun anyone!
A fastbreak is a fastbreak. We steal at half court-two on one break, we get free thows if we’re lucky. A better ballhandler at that time makes a difference.
Don’t need a HOF point gaurd either, but we do need qualified veteran backcourt help to win the Title. I don’t think what we have will suffice, I think we need help for Kobe. It may not be a deal-breaker? I think it will prevent us from winning a title. Drag.
I never confuse fastbreaks with early offense, I played point gaurd. We work too hard to score, as a team, that’s fact. It will get easier with this offense, but won’t assure a title.
Point Gaurds can control tempo when things start to get out of hand, or when you want to finish someone off, putting you over the top. Drew is always too hurt for the bigs to play enough together. And history has shown that won"t change. How do we keep drew healthy?
I’m glad your on top of this man cause we’re talking apples and oranges alot. I’m not saying your wrong!! I’m saying we are overlooking what wil keep us out of the NBA finals.
A fastbreak is a fastbreak. We steal at half court-two on one break, we get free thows if we’re lucky. A better ballhandler at that time makes a difference.
That’s not my point. We’re not going to be a fast breaking team as a matter of course so having a ballhandler for that purpose is irrelevant.
Don’t need a HOF point gaurd either, but we do need qualified veteran backcourt help to win the Title. I don’t think what we have will suffice, I think we need help for Kobe. It may not be a deal-breaker? I think it will prevent us from winning a title. Drag.
True, it is relevant insofar as we have to fill the gaps in the rotation, such as at backup two guard, but that’s not the difference between this team winning the title and not. We lost last year partly because of a breakdown in execution and partly since our second best player chose to consummate his season-long malaise by disappearing in the playoffs. Filling the gaps in around our bigs and so on is important and we should always be looking to improve, but calling it the lynchpin upon which our title hopes lie is simply untrue.
I never confuse fastbreaks with early offense, I played point gaurd. We work too hard to score, as a team, that’s fact. It will get easier with this offense, but won’t assure a title.
Well, you haven’t convinced me so far that you are aware of the distinction, seeing that you continue to blur the lines between the two. And the “we work too hard to score” part was poor execution, not a personnel problem. As I noted above, filling in the gaps, which in this case includes someone capable of shooting consistently, will help, but it’s not a deal breaker. Nor am I saying that this new system is a panacea, but one can be relatively assured that the team will come back with some measure of focus and be receptive to it, so the fact that it fits our personnel is the most important factor.
Point Gaurds can control tempo when things start to get out of hand, or when you want to finish someone off, putting you over the top.
…what? First, that’s not the role of a point guard, strictly speaking. You basically just described Kobe’s role in disadvantageous situations. Next, that’s not “tempo,” which refers to the relative flow of the game and getting smoothly into one’s sets at both ends. In the triangle, a relatively point guard free offense, the Lakers could control tempo through proper execution at both ends by not rushing shots, not allowing second chance opportunities, and so on and such forth. It’s basically allowing your team to dictate the terms of the engagement to your opponent, and for the purposes of this team, it has little to do with a point guard.
Drew is always too hurt for the bigs to play enough together. And history has shown that won"t change. How do we keep drew healthy?
That’s not something the team can directly address beyond him keeping himself healthy. I will say that none of his previous injuries have been his fault strictly speaking, so as long as he avoids stepping on someone’s foot or Kobe crashing into his leg, he should stay upright.
I’m glad your on top of this man cause we’re talking apples and oranges alot. I’m not saying your wrong!! I’m saying we are overlooking what wil keep us out of the NBA finals.
Except you’re making an assertion that has little to no grounding whatsoever since it isn’t related to the chief concerns that sunk us last year. Is it a problem? Certainly. It is far from the top of the list though.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
The gaurds are good! But too young to help Kobe right away.
I must not have been a member during the point-gaurd article, but the backcourt and frontcourt go hand in hand to me. Duncan and Robinson actually “wanted” to play together, you could tell. I don’t see the needed closeness in Drew/Pau yet. Elliott extended the floor, something I hope Goudelock/Barnes can do. But SA’s point play was no joke back then!! In a small lineup, we should be able to destroy teams with Pau in the middle and an attacking D, per our athletisism. But we’re not! Magic thinks we could use a pointgaurd, he’s a pretty good judge of such a situation. I agree with him. Especially about Jim……..
Duncan and Robinson actually "wanted" to play together, you could tell. I don’t see the needed closeness in Drew/Pau yet.
Glad you’re playing armchair psychologist and can tell that this is a failed relationship. I’ll rely on slightly more factual items such as the lack of plays that involved the two of them, the long stretches of court time they’ve missed, and that neither has anything negative to say about each other in the media.
But SA’s point play was no joke back then!!
They were competent, if that’s what you meant, but that doesn’t mean that Kobe and Odom can’t substitute for them on most of the pick-and-roll sets. This isn’t Paul or Nash micro-managing an offense and creating opportunities on their lonesome every time down the floor. We’re definitely adopting a more conventional system, but its a far cry from running a pick-and-roll nearly every single time down the floor as they do in New Orleans and Phoenix.
But we’re not! Magic thinks we could use a pointgaurd, he’s a pretty good judge of such a situation.
No offense, but Magic is pretty far down the list of people I would go to for sage basketball wisdom, given that he’s a terrible analyst.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Known him sense he's been here. Good guy! I've never bashed Magic.....
May not be a great analyst, but he’s keen on the game, and the manipulation of it. Jerry West said we didn’t do a good enough job of bringing in youth to play with the veterans, I agree with that, and West was only a help analyst back when we were trying to secure the booth and sidelines. Long time ago.
Agree on Morris, but will they let him play? He's a frosh.......
Kobe and Lamar need not have to give more, their aging! It would shorten their careers. And I think a trade is very possible! We also, have been blowing draft-days for 10 years. Parker, Ginobli, Kirelinko, the list is ridiculously long. That’s the past though! If you trade Artest for Sessions & a future pick, your not adding salary. If Pau went to N.J. for D. Williams & a pick your still not increasing salary, Pau makes more! If Pau went for CP3 & a pick, your still not increasing salary. A package deal involving 3-teams might be the best solution. For Session’s and the mid-level, they can have Derrick, NOT Devin Ebanks!!! My guess is that too many people still love Drew.( Celtics ready to move Rajon Rhondo for D. Howard.!!) Hmmm, what would we do then? We need to win NOW!! Like Boston does. I say, move a Big to get a point, (usually forbidden), but should be done……….
Kobe and Lamar need not have to give more, their aging! It would shorten their careers.
They’re not going to shorten their careers by running more pick-and-roll. I’d even argue the opposite for Kobe, considering that adopting a distributing role allows him to conserve energy for more aggressive play later.
If you trade Artest for Sessions & a future pick, your not adding salary.
Except that’s a terrible deal for Cleveland, who has no reason to take on the rest of Artest’s contract and deal with his personality on a rebuilding team. And you’re even asking them for a draft pick, one likely to be in the high lottery? lol.
If Pau went to N.J. for D. Williams & a pick your still not increasing salary, Pau makes more!
New Jersey has no reason to make that deal considering that they’re rebuilding around Williams and getting an older Gasol isn’t a great rebuilding piece.
If Pau went for CP3 & a pick, your still not increasing salary.
lol, that’s a terrible deal for New Orleans. Why is Pau, who is on the wrong side of 30, good compensation for Paul, whose loss means that New Orleans is immediately rebuilding? They can’t build around Pau, as by the time they assemble more decent pieces, he’ll be in his mid or late 30s. Not to mention that they almost certainly could get a better deal if they put Paul on the market. Your belief that New Orleans would surrender a Paul and a pick for Gasol is also highly amusing.
For Session’s and the mid-level, they can have Derrick, NOT Devin Ebanks!!!
There is no reason whatsoever Cleveland would want Fisher back in that deal unless they saw him as a mentor for Irving, and even that’s not a reason to give up an asset like Sessions.
My guess is that too many people still love Drew.( Celtics ready to move Rajon Rhondo for D. Howard.!!) Hmmm, what would we do then? We need to win NOW!! Like Boston does. I say, move a Big to get a point, (usually forbidden), but should be done……….
The notion that Boston could get Howard for Rondo is pretty laughable. Even Bynum straight-up (no Odom, no taking on Turkoglu’s/Arenas’ contracts) would be a better deal than that.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Ok
Paul isn’t staying with the hornets, if they could snatch any kind of good trade they will consider. At this point, Paul is done with the hornets, I’m not claiming that a CP3 <→Gasol trade is imminent or even likely but they will take any good trade seriously, you can’t really say 100% that paul would not get traded for pau, but tbh that trade imo is bad for the lakers, Gasol > CP3 Baby.
lolwut. Gasol isn't close to Paul by any measure whatsoever.
I struggle to call it even a close comparison.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
O rly
Just looking at pure stats Gasol is better the paul, secondly, you must have a very high opinion of Point guards, Pau is the second best power forward in the league, paul is in the top three for pg, and you consider Paul to be so much better then pau, wow are assists worth that much more then rebounds and points to you. I will give you this, in terms of trade value paul is higher then gasol due to pauls low age, and the fact that point guards can play well into their thirties, Paul could have 12-13 seasons left in the nba, gasol might have 4-5 good years.
"Pure stats"?
Per game statistics are a horribly flawed way of comparing players. At his best, Paul has crushed Gasol in PER, Otrg, win shares, or basically any advanced metric out there. Not to mention that it easily passes the eye test, given that Paul is the league’s best non-Nash pick-and-roll operator, a threat to score from basically everywhere on the court, and an ace defender. Gasol is great no doubt, but he’s a good second wheel at his best, and certainly can’t carry a team like Paul has with the assorted flotsam around him the last few years.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Manipulaton of unset situations is what I'm concerned about!!
Things won’t run as easy as we suspect, and we’ll have to be creative as we go along. The intangibles will make or break it for us this year. No ones gonna make it easy.
Drew is my primary concern, he’s always hurt and Pau always plays too many minutes because of it.
We can run a million plays for our Bigs, but if there’s only one then what?
I don’t expect any high draft picks in any of these scenarios, your unloading some salary.
NJ won’t be able to keep D. Wil and neither will N.O. be able to keep Paul, we know that.
Both those teams will lose their stars and can win some now, or have to rebuild.
Boston is willing to do anything to get Howard. If they do, then Drew has to pan out.
Things won’t run as easy as we suspect, and we’ll have to be creative as we go along. The intangibles will make or break it for us this year. No ones gonna make it easy.
Care to elaborate beyond these platitudes? I certainly don’t mind having a discussion. I do mind talking to someone throwing up a bunch of talking points haphazardly.
Drew is my primary concern, he’s always hurt and Pau always plays too many minutes because of it.
That’s called getting a good backup, which half of the article above is devoted to.
We can run a million plays for our Bigs, but if there’s only one then what?
…what? If you’re referring to my comment about secondary and tertiary options, I meant that as a matter of course, these plays have different aspects that can be executed under certain conditions or after some made reads. Otherwise, your statement barely makes sense. As I said above, it’s a discussion if you make points and elaborate. It’s not if you’re just throwing stuff at the wall.
I don’t expect any high draft picks in any of these scenarios, your unloading some salary.
Trades are a two-way street. You can’t just say that we’re “unloading salary” because another team is getting that salary. Nearly all your trades are pretty poor deals for the other team in the scenario.
NJ won’t be able to keep D. Wil and neither will N.O. be able to keep Paul, we know that.
Paul, sure, but Williams is a more open question mark. Overarching point is that Gasol isn’t a piece that they’ll accept for either.
Boston is willing to do anything to get Howard. If they do, then Drew has to pan out.
They’re not getting Howard for Rondo and parts. It’s very hard to fashion a scenario in which that’s more appealing to Orlando than Bynum or any number of offers that would be available with Howard on the market. The only Howard to Boston chatter that was heard would be signing him with available cap space after some of the Big Three retire, but that’s mostly gone by the wayside.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
yeah
Not to mention the fact that the magic have built their team around a bigman, ideally they could get a big man in return for Howard, Bynum is in the top 5 centers no doubt, maybe top 3, its not that big of a downgrade trading howard for bynum not to mention the fact that the magic could grab more players off of us, I have always talked about the bynum+odom <→ Howard trade which is fair and possible. It gives the magic the power forward needed because bass sucks, and it gives them a young dominant Center that can play in the mold that the magic have become accustomed to. And maybe we could throw in Walton, for a washing machine?
D Wil might leave, might not, we have no idea, why speculate.
Yeah we can play a million plays for our bigs, we have one of the tallest teams in the league, Bynum = 7 footer, Pau = 7 Footer, Odom = 6’10 playing SF. Remember the average PF is maybe 6’9-6’10 and the average SF is 6’7-6’8. And do you think we are trading away big men without getting any in return, Im sorry but we are not following the warriors mold, just sayin.
Lastly, if Dallas resigns Caron and Barea, and gets R.B. back, how will we fair?
They’ll be even better than they were when we couldn’t handle them!
Work with me (Ben R), I’m diggin your passion dude, mine goes back 50 years as a laker fan. I’m for this system too man. But, if anything goes wrong with Kobe in any way shape or form, we need to be “considerably ready,” like Dallas is. I hate to say it, but they can afford an injury and still win it. They just did! Can we win it, if we lose a key player?
C’mon man, let’s figure this one out. Or let’s sitback and pray everything goes as well as it could, if we all give 100% all the time this season like Kobe…Drew Must stay healthy…
Lastly, if Dallas resigns Caron and Barea, and gets R.B. back, how will we fair?
Fine, considering that our execution was mind-bogglingly terrible in every game and we were still in the mix in most of them. That and we did it with only two players (Kobe and Bynum) playing worth a damn. It’s becoming increasingly clear that you haven’t really diagnosed the reasons behind why we lost last year, which is one of the pertinent items of this discussion.
Work with me (Ben R), I’m diggin your passion dude, mine goes back 50 years as a laker fan. I’m for this system too man.
50 years? Well, congrats. It’s not all that relevant to this discussion, which you took into a rather unnecessary tangent with the remainder of your comments. That and your scenario is a bit silly. Obviously, if we don’t have a healthy Kobe, we’re not a serious contender. That would be true no matter what happened this offseason. It’s like saying where Dallas would be if they lost Dirk. It’s a pointless angle to explore.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
ok
Well, while the reasons for our early departure in the playoffs are all personal performance issues we do have to acknowledge the fact that, god forbid, Kobe were to be injured badly, what would we do? Shannon Brown is a good sub, but the question is, can he handle the minutes involved? We really are not prepared for an injury, but tbh how prepared can you be for your franchise player to have a serious injury, if Dirk was injured the Mavs would not have won, no team can prepare for their franchise player being seriously injured, just saying.
A Rhondo deal for Howard would include several pieces, maybe even a 3rd team.
It would’nt be a straight up deal. It couldn’t be! However, the notion is a scary one for us laker fans. They’re probably more bold than we are when it comes to obtaining D. Howard.
They have no package that's more alluring than a Bynum/Odom one
Or one that could match the ones that would be offered on the open market if Howard became available. There’s zero chance Howard is in a Celtics jersey next year.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
rofl
Who could the celtics trade, thy have a bunch of ex stars getting older together on a team with a point guard that cant score outside of the paint, nothing, I mean nothing on the celtics equates to the value of Bynum+Odom for howard, unless the celtics were looking to unload half of their team. The fact is that Bynum replaces howard (which he can, Bynum is no joke, probably the third best center in the league) and odom replaces Bass (who is terrible) and provides more outside scoring for the magic, who have been lacking in that department. The Bynum+Odom for howard actually improves the magic’s bid for a title, because it provides a more wide base for the magic offense. An actual good PF and a Center that is a beast on both ends of the court. And the lakers, with Kobe, Gasol, and Howard would win titles guaranteed.
"Derrick Caracter," Not Derek Fisher, when it comes to Ebanks...
We have to keep Fisher, for leadership and late game heroics……..
shut up
D fish needs to A: Get traded B: Get Waived C: Get benched for the BROWN BABY!
Be careful, fella.
You're only a success for the moment that you complete a successful act. - Tex Winter
Tweetness
Sorry
for being realistic, D fish does not help the team, it IS that simple.
Just don't tell people to "shut up", a little more respect, please.
You're only a success for the moment that you complete a successful act. - Tex Winter
Tweetness
Fine, Caracter, but then that becomes unrealistic.
As you’re asking them to basically give up Sessions for nothing. Only feasible scenario is the trade exception and Ebanks, a first rounder, or Barnes for Sessions. Otherwise Cleveland has no incentive to make that deal.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Hopefully Miami and Dallas won't "just run by us," like they did last year!!
We’re long and slow. Anyone who slows down for us will lose to us! Good teams Heat, Mavericks, OKC, that try to run by us, will do so, if we don’t control the boards.
Maybe the lakers can find of course someone cheap..an old grissled vet or a big young player.
Either way you have to do your homework. There won’t be much out there. Not anyone that will really contribute.































