Kobe Bryants accomplishments and his place in history
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 26, 2011 3:32 AM PDT
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This article is not attempting to list the greatest players of all time, i want to make that clear. It is attempting to list the most accomplished, in other words... it is not about the most talented players in NBA history, but about the players that made the most out of their talents.
To me personally, the most important thing is championships. The more championships the more accomplished. However i feel it is important to recognize how important a player was to the championship. Was the player a role player? Was he a vital piece to the championship puzzle? Was he an MJ, Pippen, Shaq, or Duncan type? Or a Robert Horry,Derek Fisher, or Steve Kerr type?
Other things to consider when talking about a players all-time status is individual accomplishments such as MVPs, DPOY awards, ROY awards, all NBA selections, all star selections etc.
Lets discuss where the mamba ranks with the all time greats.
The first thing to consider when compiling this list is to rank all the players by championships won, then determine if they were role players and as a main contributer, alpha dog type of player for their team.
The all-time list of players with the most titles goes as follows:
Bill Russell-(11) Being at the top of this list automatically guarantees you a spot in the top 10 list of most accomplished players in NBA history. Russell was a 5 time MVP, a 12 time all star, a 3 time all NBA 1st team selection, and 8 time second team selection, and an ASG MVP in 1963.
Sam Jones-(10) Jones averaged 18, 5 and 3, for his career, and was a 5 time all star, a 3 time all NBA 2nd team selection, and had his #24 jersey retired by the boston celtics. Jones was not a career role player, and his accomplishments should put him on the short list of greatest of all time.
Tom Heinsohn-(8) Heinsohn averaged 18, 9, and 2 for his career, and was a 6 time all star and rookie of the year in 1957. He was named to the all NBA 2nd team 4 times, and had his #15 jersey retired by the Boston Celtics. Heinsohn was not a career role player, but he should not be considered on the short list of greatest of all time.
KC Jones-(8) Jones averaged 7, 4, and 4, for his career and his only major individual accomplishment was having his #25 jersey retired by the Boston Celtics. Jones should not be considered as one of the GOAT as he was a career role player.
Satch Sanders-(8) Sanders averages 10, 6 and 1, for his NBA career, and was named to the all defensive second team once. Sanders should not be considered as one of the GOAT as he was a career role player.
John Havlicek-(8) Havlicek averaged 21, 6, and 5 for his NBA career. He was named the 74 finals MVP and also named to 13 all star teams. He was named to the all NBA first team 4 times and the 2nd team 7 times. He was named to the all defensive team 5 times and the 2nd team 3 times. he also has his #17 retired by the Boston Celtics. With this resume i believe he has earned a place on the short list of GOAT.
Jim Loscutoff-(7) Loscutoff averaged 6, 6, and 1 for his NBA career and was honored by the Celtics with his last name on the back of a jersey hanging from the rafters. However, with stats like those he cannot be considered one of the greatest of all time.
Frank Ramsey-(7) Ramsey averaged 13, 5, and 2 during his NBA career and had his #23 retired by the Boston Celtics. However, he was never named to an all star team and therefor should not be considered one of the greatest players of all time.
Robert Horry-(7) Horry was known for his clutch shot making ability in crunch time of big games, especially during the playoffs. During his career and earned the nickname "Big Shot Bob". His most famous shot came during game 4 of the 2002 WCF against Sacramento. Horry drained a game-winning 3 as time expired which helped propel LA to 3-peat about two weeks later. However, Horry never had big numbers during his career and never appeared in an ASG. Therefore he should not be considered one of the greatest of all time as he was a career role player.
Bob Cousy-(6) Cousy was one of the leagues elite point guards during the 50's and 60's, and lead the league in assist for 8 straight years. He was a 10 time all NBA first team selection, a 2 time all NBA second team selection, a 13 time all star, and even won an MVP award in 1957. With this resume, Cousy has earned a spot on my short list of greatest NBA players of all time.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar-(6) Kareem was one of the best of the best, his resume speaks for its self. He wa the all time leading scorer in NBA history. He was a 6 time champ, a 6 time MVP, a 19 time all-star, a 2-time finals mvp, a 10 time all NBA first teamer, a 5 time all NBA second teamer, a 5 time all defensive 1st teamer, and a 6 time all defensive 2nd teamer. He won the rookie of the year in 1970 and had his #33 jersey retired by the Bucks and Lakers.
Michael Jordan-(6) What really needs to be said. MJ is without question the greatest player of all time. He was a 6 time champion, a 5 time MVP, a 6 time finals MVP, a 10 time scoring champion, a 14 time all star, the defensive player of the year in '88, he was named to the all NBA first team 10 times, and the 2nd team once, he was named to the all defensive 1st team 9 times, he won the rookie of the year in '85, and had his #23 retired by the Chicago Bulls.
Scottie Pippen-(6) Pippen played the role of sidekick to Michael Jordan during the bulls dynasty of the 90's, although he didn't take much of a back seat to Jordan in terms of importance to his team. Pippen was a 7 time all star (even taking home the '94 ASG MVP), a 3 time all-NBA 1st team selection, a 2 time 2nd team All-NBA selection, and a 2 time all-NBA 3rd team selection, an 8 time 1st team all-Defensive selection, and a 2 time 2nd team all-Defensive selection. He was arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time. He even had his #33 jersey retired by the Chicago Bulls. However his career averages were only 16, 6 and 5 and although he was not a career role player by any means, he should not be considered for the short list as one of the greatest of all time.
George Mikan-(5) Mikan was a 4 time all star and named the '53 ASG MVP. He also was named a 1st team all-NBAer 6 times. He was not by any means a career role player, and was named one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history, but he is not in the elite of the elite in terms of all time basketball greatness.
Jim Pollard-(5) Pollard averaged 13, 8, and 2 for his career and was a career role player although he was a 4 time all star, a 2 time All-NBA First Team, and a 2 time All-NBA Second Team selection.
Slater Martin-(5) Slater was a 7 time all star and a 5 time all NBA 2nd team. He averaged 10, 3 and 4, for his career and is considered a career role player.
Larry Siegfried-(5) Siegfried averaged 11, 3, and 3 for the Celtics, Rockets, and Hawks during his NBA career, however he never made an ASG and is considered a career role player.
Don Nelson-(5) Nelson averaged 10, 5, and 1 for the celtics in the 60's and 70's, however he never made an ASG and is considered a career role player.
Michael Cooper-(5) Cooper came off the bench for the "showtime" lakers in the 80's and played a fairly big role for his championship teams. However he was at best the third best player on those teams, playing along side Magic Johnson, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He earn the DPOY award in 1987, and was a 5 time all defensive first team selection, and a 3 time all defensive second team selection. Because he did come off the bench and played with two of the greatest players of all time, Cooper should not be considered on of the greatest players of all time.
Magic Johnson-(5) Wow, where to start? Magic was a 5 time champ, 3 time MVP, 12 time all star, 3 time finals MVP, a 9 time all NBA first team selection, a one time all NBA 2nd team selection, a 2 time ASG MVP, an NCAA champion, and had his #32 jersey retired by the Lakers. He averaged 20, 7, and 11 for his career, and holds the record for most assist per game in NBA history. He also holds the record for most points scored a single game by a rookie with 42.
Dennis Rodman-(5) Rodman was a fantastic player off the bench and is arguably the greatest rebounder of all time, as he is the leagues all time leader in rebounds per game. He was known for his outstanding defense, hustle, and exceptional rebounding ability. Rodman was a 2 time DPOY, and 8 time All-defensive selection, and a two time all NBA third team selection. However Rodman was only a 2 time all star. All things considered, he is a career role player, but he has a case for most accomplished defensive player of all time, and because of this he has earned a spot on my short list.
Ron Harper-(5) Harper's only individual accomplishment during his NBA career was being named to the '87 all rookie team. He averaged 14, 4, and 4 during his career and was a career role player.
Steve Kerr-(5) Kerr was a career reserve player for the 2nd bulls dynasty of the late 90's and was best known for his championship clinching shot against the Utah Jazz in the '97 NBA finals. Being a career bench player, Kerr should not be considered one of the greatest of all time.
Derek Fisher-(5) Fisher has been known for his defense and big time shot making ability during his NBA career, especially during the playoffs. For example his shot with .4 seconds remaining on the clock during game 5 of the 2004 WCF against San Antonio. However Fisher has never appeared in a ASG or received any other type of major individual award during his career, therefor he is a career role player, and should not be considered one of the greatest of all time.
Kobe Bryant-(5) At last the subject of the article. Kobe Bryant has had one of the most accomplished careers in the history of the NBA. The Mamba is a 5 time champion, a 2 time finals MVP, the 2008 regular season MVP, a 13 time all star, a 2 time scoring champion, a 9 time all NBA first team selection, a 2 time 2nd and 3rd team all NBA selection, and a 9 time all defensive first team selection, a 2 time all defensive 2nd team selection, and he holds the record for most all star game MVP awards with 4 (tied with Bob Pettit). He has scored the 2nd most points in a game in league history with 81, joining Wilt Chamberlain as the only players to score more the 73 points in a game. He also is the highest scoring Laker in history, one of american sports greatest franchises.
I feel the top 5 players in NBA history in terms of career accomplishments go as follows:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Magic Johnson
Where do you feel Kobe ranks among the most accomplished players in nba history?
What is your top 5?
Remember where not talking about the greatest players of all time here, that subject is far more opinion-based than this one.
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Nice job, man. It was a good read.
"This ain't a figment of my imagination, buddy, this is where I live. Bama." -Yelawolf
nice work
I think if we only consider accomplishments, KAJ should be GOAT
Always Lurking. Always. Yes. But not that often.
I always like being the hunter, I’m going after something. It doesn’t matter that I have one now, that means nothing to me. I have five (NBA titles), next year I’m playing like I don’t have five, you know what I mean? I’m playing for that one. I’m not looking over my shoulder and seeing who is coming behind me, I’m coming to get something else.
-Kobe Bryant
that is a great quote
i had never heard that before
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 26, 2011 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions
that is interesting that you consider Kareem to be the most accomplished.
what do you feel sets him apart from MJ?
The reason i feel MJ is better than Kareem are; they had the same number of titles, Kareem won more MVP (that number would probably be tied if karl malone had not won the ’97 award, who a lot of people feel was kind of a pitty award. Jordan averaged 30, 6, 4, and 2 that season, while malone only averaged 27, 10, 4, and 1. And the bulls finished 5 games ahead of the jazz in the regular season standings). Kareem also had 5 more all star selections (that number would almost certainly be 3 if jordan had not taken two years off to pursue a baseball career after his father died). Michael also had 4 more finals mvps than Kareem, and 8 more scoring titles. Mj won a DPOY award. They both had the same number of 1st team nba selections. MJ had 4 more all defensive 1st team selections. They both won a rookie of the year and had their numbers retiered by their respective teams. Finally i think jordan was a more accomplished player than Kareem because MJ was the undisputed best player on all 6 of his championship teams, while Kareem was only the best player on two of his title winning clubs.
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 26, 2011 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Honestly, I just said that out of my gut LOL
Since you emphasized on winning, Im gonna talk about it.
MJ has the edge against KAJ with the fact that MJ’s won so much without having a really good big guy next to him (though this can be disputed), most winners before him had dominating big guys or had very good front court players. And most great players that are winners are big men. Wilt, Russell, Unseld, Moses Malone, KAJ, Reed, Olajuwon, O’Neal, even Magic. LOL
The thing is MJ was not able to win in those years that Magic and Bird was really dominating the league, but you have to say that LA and Boston had more complete teams then and MJ won an MVP award at the height of the LA-Boston rivalry. While with KAJ he won in two eras, the early 70s and most of the 80s. That makes me go on to the next point that KAJ had a long tenure as a player in the league and that made him achieve more than MJ. 6 season MVPs and 6 rings, owner of the most career points record. And he was still able to contribute to his team at a high level even though he was in his late 30s. The fact that MJ took some time off minimized his ability to achieve more. You could say that even though Jordan won as much as KAJ did even though he didnt have that long tenure as KAJ, the fact stands that the Captain won more and did more.
Always Lurking. Always. Yes. But not that often.
I always like being the hunter, I’m going after something. It doesn’t matter that I have one now, that means nothing to me. I have five (NBA titles), next year I’m playing like I don’t have five, you know what I mean? I’m playing for that one. I’m not looking over my shoulder and seeing who is coming behind me, I’m coming to get something else.
-Kobe Bryant
Jordan was the undisputed best player on all of his championship teams
you cant say the same for Kareem. That is why MJ is more accomplished
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 27, 2011 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions
There was some talk of split Finals MVPs
between Pippen and he in the final two years, but yeah the point stands.
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
All I know is
Kareem won a title in Milwaukee. That alone should be worth more than anyone on the list
(for those taking this really seriously, I say this in jest. Kinda)
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
/NorthMidWestBias
Mo' Everything
"Please remember: it's not my fault your team sucks." - DexterFishmore
Stalk, err, Follow me on Twitter: @bluefalcon916
by bluexfalcon on Jul 27, 2011 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, if being able to lead multiple teams to championships is an aspect of greatness -
especially one being in a small market without RAILLY or Jackson as head coach . . . . . . .
"Please tell me some of these stories about Los Angeles being the basketball capital of the world." - Red Auerbach
"质量是我们的尊严。服务是我们的电梯。" ("Quality is our dignity. Service is our lift.")
"make em eat your bubbles" - Cup Noodles
As far as most accomplished player, I agree it’s between Kareem and MJ. Kareem has MJ beat in several categories, including all time leading scorer, which I don’t think was mentioned. This is just NBA, I won’t rehash the stats. But, if we’re talking about most accomplished basketball player in history, Kareem wins hands down, with his HS and college accolades coming into effect.
You do mention that MJ should’ve won the 97 MVP, but by just the stats you throw out, I’d take Malone, but that doesn’t necessarily mean Malone was better that year. But, as a PF, Malone still averaged the same # of assists as MJ, and while playing with the NBA’s all-time assists leader.
I like how you distinguish this article as just ‘the most accomplished." So, it basically just comes down to accolades. But, one thing you mention in that MJ was robbed off an MVP, but this shouldn’t be apart of the ‘most accomplished’ argument. I think Kobe should have no fewer than 5 MVPs, but he only has 1, and any knowledgeable basketball fan understands how ridiculous this is, so when it comes down to most accomplished, only the one MVP Kobe won can be considered.
I can’t put Bill Russell ahead of Kobe or Magic on most accomplished list. You do have to factor in some scoring output, too. Russell played in an era when scoring was at an all-time high, and is nowhere to be seen on the all-time scoring list, and I think he still never was the leading or 2nd leading scorer on his team for any given year. When it came down to crunch time, it certainly wasn’t Russell time.
by express34texas on Jul 26, 2011 12:06 PM PDT reply actions
My bad on the all time scoring record, I probably rushed over it during my research
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 26, 2011 6:43 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Loved the article and everything
but I can’t for the life of me say that Kobe is better than Magic on the all time list. Magic was more than likely the best player to ever grace his position (with a small case being made for Stockton) while Kobe is easily number 2 or 3 depending on whether or not you think Big O is better. I also don’t know why Shaq hasn’t even been mentioned in this, in his prime he was more dominant than Jordan just didn’t have the same caliber team mates. With all that said very well written and I personally believe Magic was the best player to ever play the game, but I have a personal bias against Jordan =D I overvalue Pippen
"We will be perfect in every aspect of the game. You drop a pass, you run a mile. You miss a blocking assignment, you run a mile. You fumble the football and I will break my foot off in your John Brown hind parts...and then you will run a mile. Perfection. Let's get to work."
Coach Boone
Remember The Titans [2000]
Shaq wasn’t mentioned on this list because the main emphasis for my list of most accomplished was number of titles. Far too many players were tied with Shaq at 4, so none of them made the cut. That being said, in his prime Shaq was arguably the most dominate player in league history. Thanks for the feedback
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 26, 2011 6:46 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
As far as most accomplished
11 titles and 5 MVPs is hard to argue. I’ll never believe that Russell is as good as some of the others on that list, especially Kobe, Michael, Magic, and Kareem, but titles are the ultimate team accomplishment, and MVPs the ultimate individual accomplishment. As far as best PLAYER ever, I think that’s a different conversation altogether.
I agree with all of that. I think my shirt list of greatest players of all time is still mj, magic, kareem and kobe
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 26, 2011 6:51 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
How many years does Kobe have left in the tank?
by LanceTheDuckMadeOfUsedCondoms on Jul 26, 2011 7:05 PM PDT reply actions
3 at an elite level.
Given how well he takes care of himself.
Then maybe 3 at an All-Star level. I see him playing as long as Kareem.
"I was just letting the shots fly. You know, I don't leave any bullets in the chamber."
"Everything negative- pressure, challenges- is all an opportunity for me to rise."
-Kobe Bryant
Chris Mortensen: "You know it's the 'Show-Me' State right Sam?"
"Pshh, 'Show Me.' (smirking) Yeah, I've heard that."
-Sam Bradford
3
each coming with a different diminishing level. He’ll be able to be a role player like most old guys forever, but as a legit first option, he has at most 3. If he’s 35 as a first option, that shit will just be mind boggling
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
Brandon Jennings holds the record for most points scored by a rookie now right?
Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer
by afrikabamboodle on Jul 26, 2011 7:57 PM PDT reply actions
That is correct, my mistake
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 26, 2011 8:39 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
in a regular season, yes
but the 42 of magic was in the finals
Greatness inspires envy, envy engenders spite, spite spawns lies. - tmr
but Jennings' 55 came against the Warriors
as much as I love GS, it should come with an asterisk :)
"It ain't Chinese algebra. If you get stops and you execute on offense, normally that team wins." - Tony Allen
"One thing LeBron James has won that Kobe Bryant never has, and never will: A bronze medal."- Josh Tucker
I would put Havlicek and Cousy ahead of Bryant.
More championships, and just as important to their championship teams as Bryant is to his.
I also wonder whether Wilt Chamberlain might be called one of the top five accomplished players despite only two championships. If we are just counting championships, that’s one thing, but if we also count NBA all-time records held, scoring titles, rebounding titles, even an assist title, MVP awards, All-Star games, All-NBA team selections, or other awards and statistical accomplishments that fall short of a championship, Chamberlain would climb into the top five ahead of Kobe.
He ordered it by championships
and I def have a personal bias in favor of Wilt. However, using his criteria of championships first, Wilt doesn’t make this list.
By his metrics, you could also argue that Havlicek and Cousy are ahead of Kobe. I don’t know how you argue they were just as important, but you can make an argument
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
kobe was close to them in championships
and had better stats over his career, and was more of an alpha dog type
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 27, 2011 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Notice I didn't agree with him lol
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
noted
just wanted to clear that up
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 27, 2011 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I loved Wilt too...
In terms of sheer numbers and record breaking achievements, Wilt deserves to be up there for sure. Wilt was the first to put up, “Nintendo Numbers,” I love looking at Wilt’s numbers in basketball almanacs and seeing that 50.4 points per game and 27 rebounds per game averages, thats just ridiculous man…
again
Wilt doesn’t qualify for my list
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 28, 2011 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not arguing that Cousy and Havlicek are better players than Bryant,
I’m arguing that they were just as big of stars on their respective championship teams.
agian
my main emphasis for my definition of accomplished was championships
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 27, 2011 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions
wilt doesnt qualify for my list. please read the article before commenting, thanks
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 28, 2011 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions
he has 7
i didnt find him in my research. probably because he was so terrible 6pts 5rbs 0.7assts. my mistake
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 29, 2011 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Read your own article.
To me personally, the most important thing is championships. The more championships the more accomplished. However i feel it is important to recognize how important a player was to the championship. Was the player a role player? Was he a vital piece to the championship puzzle? Was he an MJ, Pippen, Shaq, or Duncan type? Or a Robert Horry,Derek Fisher, or Steve Kerr type?
Other things to consider when talking about a players all-time status is individual accomplishments such as MVPs, DPOY awards, ROY awards, all NBA selections, all star selections etc.
Wilt had multiple championships in which he figured very prominently, and had more individual accomplishments than anyone. Even if you consider championship more important than individual accomplishments, if you consider individual accomplishments at all, that may tip the balance in favor of Wilt.
And if you don’t want anyone disagreeing with you, why post at all?
by Tim S. on Aug 11, 2011 7:59 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
i want to discuss people on this list
and not wilt. Wilt DOES HAVE a case for the greatest player of all time, but he does not have a case as the most accomplished
by robertjamespfeifer on Aug 11, 2011 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions
That's just your opinion. Others clearly disagree.
In order to be irreplaceable one must always be different. - Coco Chanel
Tweetness
fine. it is. can we drop it know and talk about the 25 players i profiled
and just agree that wilt was great, didnt win a lot of titles, but that doesnt take away from his greatness
by robertjamespfeifer on Aug 12, 2011 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions
kobe Bryants accomplishments and his place in history
Ali=Best Boxer/Surpassed Joe Louis
Richard Pryor=Best Stand-up Comedian/Surpassed Anyone you can name
Michael Jackson=Best Entertainer/Didn’t just surpassed—reinvented the whole GAME
Now=Kobe surpassed Jordans skill level. However, media says LeBron—Check his Heart out one time ya’ll. That’s kind of like republicans not wanting to pay taxes and blaming Obama—Gave LeBron Wade and he still lost. Love ya Mike, but you got passed, not in popularity, but in SKILLS——
TeeDog
by TeeDog on Jul 27, 2011 11:45 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
And that, as they say, is that.
In order to be irreplaceable one must always be different. - Coco Chanel
Tweetness
No idea what your post has to do with the current topic.
But I do agree that skill-wise, Kobe is the greatest ever in the NBA.
"Well, she laughed at me when I said I was a vegetarian who ate meat."
by Carnivorous Vegetarian on Jul 27, 2011 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry TeeDog
I’ve been a Laker fan since 1979, the year I came to this country, and I’ve followed the Lakers ever since. But even after all this time, I STILL can’t say anybody is better than Jordan, even skill wise. Obviously not in popularity, but as much as I WANT Kobe to be considered better than MJ at ANYTHING, especially in basketball, I can’t, and for anyone to say so would be foolish. I wish I could agree with you, but as you’ll see about 90% of people will disagree with you.
You can say MJ is better than Kobe, but not skill wise. Kobe has the widest array of moves in league history. There isn’t any move or skill that you can’t do extremely well. MJ was greatest skilled, too. Kobe has a lot more options of things to do than MJ did, though that doesn’t necessarily mean that just because you have more options that this is better than perfecting 1 or 2, but Kobe is awesome at everything he’s worked on. Also, MJ sucked for 3’s, and Kobe is a great 3 pt. shooter.
Also, Kobe was better than MJ at an early(pre-prime) age. Kobe is better than MJ at an older(post-prime) age. And Kobe has at least 2-3 games that were much better than any game MJ had. You can argue that MJ was better than Kobe, but they’re really not that far apart. Different careers and situations. And MJ is a global icon and the media loves him, a stark contrast to Kobe.
by express34texas on Jul 28, 2011 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Awesome read...The poll at the end
I’m assuming the poll is supposed to be considered when Kobe Bean is done right? I would say as of right now he’s top ten. When he’s done, he’s top three. Squeezing in a couple of more rings would be excellent for his resume. If the world ended today, he is a first ballot HOF of course. I just think he’ll be top 3 when all is said and done. He would have to do A LOT to be the GOAT. For instance, if he reeled off one last three-peat he would vault even MJ, but I’m realistic, so I say 2 or 3 in history. That ain’t bad at all…and it only cost us Vlade Divac, cool wit me…
It’s supposed to be as of right know, but whatever your opinion is, it is valid
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 28, 2011 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions
kobe is the most offensively skilled player of all time
easily, hes got the ball handling, the shooting touch, one of the greatest post games for a guard ever. not to mention he has the coldest veins during the final 24 seconds of a game ever
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 27, 2011 8:29 PM PDT reply actions
In Bill Simmons' Basketball Book (revised edition)
I haven’t read the whole thing, but its nice looking at a Celtics homer’s perspective and he has Kobe ranked at 8 all time. In his revised edition at 8 and prior to the back to back Kobe was at 15. I’m not a huge fan of Simmons because he bashes on Kobe a lot, but its obvious the guy gives KB props to put him at 8 right now, with a chance to move up. And I can’t argue that much with Kobe at 8, but he will obviously finish much higher when he’s done.
Simmons is an idiot. He still has duncan ahead of Kobe. There’s really no excuse to not have kobe top 5 already. You could MJ, Kareem, Wilt, and maybe Magic are ahead of Kobe. Nobody else can really deserve any consideration.
by express34texas on Jul 28, 2011 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions
haha yeah
Duncan? Get that weak sh@t outta here
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 28, 2011 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I like reading Simmons,
He’s funny, witty, entertaining, has a knack for story telling and is really enthusiastic about the game, you can really tell he loves it. But the man doesn’t have a great basketball mind. His opinions to me aren’t super important, nor are his ‘insights’. I read him ‘cause I know I’ll laugh, not to be enlightened, and I hope that’s how most people take him. Sadly, because he’s funny, a lot of people put weight in his opinions. I respect the hell out of Russell, but any NBA player who only played offense and had a mediocre defensive game would be called out on the spot in comparison to all time greats-the converse should be true as well. His opinion on Russell is just crazy to me.
BS is definitely funny.
But he wants people to give weight to his opinions because he believes he’s a great basketball mind when he clearly is not. He’s a Celtics fan who “likes” the Clippers because he lives in L.A. and can’t bring himself to like the Lakers, which is perfectly okay. Other than that, his knowledge of basketball is shit, his book notwithstanding.
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MJJ>KBB
Kobe is Top-5 all-time but cannot be #1 until he passes MJ’s titles. If he wins again, he would be the common denominator for all the titles, doing one without Shaq or Phil.
"I won't publicly endorse a product unless I use it exclusively and I really believe in it. My only official recommendations are US Army issued mustache trimmers, Morton's Salt, and the C.R. Lawrence fine two inch style oscillating knife blade."
Then I guess Bill Russell is the GOAT by your standards.
In order to be irreplaceable one must always be different. - Coco Chanel
Tweetness
no way
michael would still have 8 more scoring titles, 5 more MVPs, 3 more finals MVPS, a DPOY award. not a chance
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 27, 2011 9:12 PM PDT reply actions
Bill Russell and Kobe in the top 5?
sorry, I cant agree with this.
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who do you think should be changed??
just to continue the conversation
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
larry bird doesn't qualify, READ THE ARTICLE, why do i have to keep telling people this
read what your commenting about before you go running your mouth
-DR. Suess out!
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 28, 2011 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions
so steve kerr and robert horry are more accomplished players than bird
simply because they were on more championship teams?
ok, whatever…
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based on this criteria yeah lol
I don’t think he thinks this criteria is the end all be all though
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
no, shaqfor3, read the article.
Don’t post again until you read it and think about it long and hard. Thanks
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 28, 2011 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL, dude, you can't tell people not to post or force them to "think about it long and hard".
In order to be irreplaceable one must always be different. - Coco Chanel
Tweetness
the entire logic behind this fanpost is flawed
The most accomplished players of all-time aren’t the ones that win all the championships. Any scrub can luck their way onto a contender and get a ring. MVPs, Final MVPs, scoring titles, all-NBA teams, etc. take actual skill and should be the center of importance here. Winning championships is just icing on the cake when measuring a NBA player’s career.
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HEY! PLEASE READ!
" Any scrub can luck their way onto a contender and get a ring. MVPs, Final MVPs, scoring titles, all-NBA teams, etc. take actual skill and should be the center of importance here."
-SHAQFOR3
“To me personally, the most important thing is championships. The more championships the more accomplished. HOWEVER I FEEL IT IS IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE HOW IMPORTANT A PLAYER WAS TO THE CHAMPIONSHIP. WAS THE PLAYER A ROLE PLAYER? WAS HE A VITAL PIECE TO THE CHAMPIONSHIP PUZZLE?
OTHER THINGS TO CONSIDER WHEN TALKING ABOUT A PLAYERS ALL-TIME STATUS IS INDIVIDUAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS SUCH AS MVP’S, DPOY AWARDS, ROY AWARDS, ALL NBA SELECTIONS, ALL STAR SELECTIONS ETC."
now that you’ve read that, if you think logically, you will realize that the comment you made implying that i was saying kerr and horry are more accomplished than bird is silly. i never implied that and it was never meant to come across that way. thats why on both of the mini bios i did of each player i said something along the lines of “…does not deserve to be considered one of the greatest off all time and was a career role player”
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 29, 2011 12:53 AM PDT up reply actions
so what makes it so wrong to consider bird as a top 5 accomplished player like I did above?
you said in the post “what is your top 5?”
and the point I was trying to make with the comment was that championships are the weakest metric for measuring how accomplished a player is compared to everything else. You completely disregard Bird, Wilt, Oscar and other names amongst these most accomplished players but mention the names of these irrelevant 60s Celtics players, who arent remotely close to “most accomplished,” just because they won a lot of rings. Thats the problem I had with the whole article.
and yes I READ THE ARTICLE. YOU CAN EASE UP ON THE CAPS LOCK.
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by shaqfor3 on Jul 29, 2011 1:29 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
anyway.....
yeah i did ask for your top five.
you said, “so steve kerr and robert horry are more accomplished players than bird…… ok, whatever”
you imply that i said that, and i never did.
and i never implied it.
if you payed attention while you were reading the article, you would have known that i didnt think kerr and horry were better than bird. i called them roll players for crying out loud. it doesnt matter what metric or cutoff i choose, roll players are not better than HOFers
i used the metric i used and i stand by it. 25 players qualified and i addressed whether they were roll players or main contributers. i could have extended it to 4, 3, or 2 titles but the article would have taken 2 months to write and another to read
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 29, 2011 2:59 AM PDT up reply actions
i could have extended it to 4, 3, or 2 titles but the article would have taken 2 months to write and another to read
then look at MVPs, Finals MVPs and all those other awards instead. You would have gotten more relevant players for the topic.
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If yoy read the article you would know i addressed all those things
and they were part of they players cases for GOAT time status. if they had all those things, (MVPs finals MVPs all star teams, and all nba teams etc) they qualified for a place on the all time list, and i talked about this. if they didnt have those things they did not qualify. i got all the relevant players in the article. if they didnt have at least 5 titles i felt and said they did not qualify for GOAT status. i did look at the things you said i should look for, and i got all the relevant players for the topic. please re-read the article
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 30, 2011 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Dude, knock off the "read the article" shit. Enough.
In order to be irreplaceable one must always be different. - Coco Chanel
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Because I like discussing opinions instead of yelling at people,
Why do you think Larry>Kobe for accomplishments? I think I’d take 9 All-First team defenses and 2 championships over 2 regular season MVPs, which is the big differences between the two. Kobe’s also got two scoring championships on Larry Legend, but I don’t know how much weight people put in that.
I'm the opposite I guess
I’d take MVPs over all-team defenses/ scoring titles. MVP means you’re the cream of the crop. Bird racked up 3 of them, along with two finals MVPs, was ROY in 1980.
Kobe on the other hand won 1 MVP, and never won ROY. In pretty much everything else (all-star bids and all-nba teams), they’re even. So yeah, IMO Bird has the slight edge, though its pretty close.
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I see your point, I'm probably just biased
I’m not really sure how Kobe doesn’t have 3 MVPs, so I never seem to take into account he’s only got the one. I’m still not sure if you’d rather have the championships or the MVPs, but I’m leaning towards MVPs
sf3
You know though that MVP is rather who is popular that year among voters more so than who was better. I mean otherwise Jordan’s MVP’s would be off the chart. There truly was no one better during his championship years.
Likewise Kobe would have more, I mean during some of his best campaigns Steve Nash won (and nothing against Nash he’s great, but he didn’t compare). MVP has a lot more to do with if they are popular and how well their team did in the regular season.
Nothing would make me happier than seeing CP3 traded to the Lakers. Mitch, make it happen!
I could see that, purely from an accomplishments standpoint
Wouldn’t make it my determining factor in calling Bird better than Kobe though, as I think the latter edges out Bird by a fair margin.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
I can only assume, since I was kinda not alive at the time, but
I’d imagine they gave him MVP based on the Celtics being dominant and him being the undisputed leader. Not saying that’s a reasonable way to decide the MVP, but it does happen.
i think this has been said before but i will bring it up again for kobes legacy. i cannot put kobe over jordan or magic overall. however, one thing i will say is kobes skill level is his calling, in my book he is number 1 in sheer skill. no disrespect to jordan but kobe has the biggest offensive arsenal i have ever seen. its not about accuracy or efficiency but rather the ability to improvise on the fly while making it look pretty easy.this to me is kobes greatest skill and one which i believe he has mastered more then anybody before him or during his playing career
This is all opinion-based.
Remember where not talking about the greatest players of all time here, that subject is far more opinion-based than this one.
In order to be irreplaceable one must always be different. - Coco Chanel
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yes it is
thats why i said…
“I feel the top 5 players in NBA history in terms of career accomplishments go as follows”
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 29, 2011 12:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Then stop blasting people for giving their opinions and listing their own top 5s.
You “feel” one way, others feel differently.
In order to be irreplaceable one must always be different. - Coco Chanel
Tweetness
and he was being a weee bit condescending for whatever reason
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 29, 2011 3:04 AM PDT up reply actions
This topic should be,
A lot less angry lol. Every one here’s just expressing an opinion an entirely subjective matter. It’s fair for the topic creator to only consider people with an exceptional (5+) amount of titles as ‘most accomplished’, just like it’s reasonable to say larry, oscar, and wilt should be in the discussion. Every one should relax a little, voicing opinions shouldn’t frustrate us so much. People come for good discussion, opposing views is a part of that.
OK . . . Citation and clarification time(out) . . .
what do you value when ranking individual basketball accomplishments? . . . This article is not attempting to list the greatest players of all time, i want to make that clear. It is attempting to list the most accomplished, in other words… it is not about the most talented players in NBA history, but about the players that made the most out of their talents.
To me personally, the most important thing is championships.
rjp — Based on the above, people should be free to comment / debate based on your criteria — or their own — regarding the players that have “made the most out of their talents”.
Using your criteria, and a bit of my own, I give the nod to Kareem. To me, Jordan basically played in one era, whereas Kareem won championships in two markets and spanned eras during which he sustained excellence despite significant formal and formal changes to the way the game is played in the NBA.
"Please tell me some of these stories about Los Angeles being the basketball capital of the world." - Red Auerbach
"质量是我们的尊严。服务是我们的电梯。" ("Quality is our dignity. Service is our lift.")
"make em eat your bubbles" - Cup Noodles
agree with koshu.
can Cap have his statue now?
this
Always Lurking. Always. Yes. But not that often.
I always like being the hunter, I’m going after something. It doesn’t matter that I have one now, that means nothing to me. I have five (NBA titles), next year I’m playing like I don’t have five, you know what I mean? I’m playing for that one. I’m not looking over my shoulder and seeing who is coming behind me, I’m coming to get something else.
-Kobe Bryant
that is true
but i stated the emphasis of the article,and the lists on this article, should be championships
by robertjamespfeifer on Jul 31, 2011 2:58 AM PDT up reply actions
For you, yes. But this isn't set in stone as the only primary criteria, based on the portions of your fanpost I called out.
One could make an argument, depending on how heavily championships are weighted, that there’s no taking the top spot away from Bill Russell.
So subjectivity is healthy for the discussion here.
"Please tell me some of these stories about Los Angeles being the basketball capital of the world." - Red Auerbach
"质量是我们的尊严。服务是我们的电梯。" ("Quality is our dignity. Service is our lift.")
"make em eat your bubbles" - Cup Noodles
championships is the article's weakness
rjp,
Your egocentric, nauseatingly repeated whine, “…but I stated in the article…” has tainted an otherwise fine article and most enjoyable comments section. We all get it, (gawd only knows you’ve certainly made it more than clear!), your perspective assume championships to be key in making your selections.
My perspective takes your term “accomplishments” to allow for more than just championships Championships reflects “team.” Your perspective has a built-in conflict by pitting “individual accomplishments” together with "(team) championships.
The NBA Record Book should also have some weight. From this perspective, the most accomplished player is easily Wilt Chamberlain. Note that Larry Bird also stated recently at the NBA Hall of Fame ceremony, that Wilt’s number of fantastic records qualifies Wilt as not just the most accomplished, but the GOAT as well. Bird then added, “No question.”
“Wilt Chamberlain is the holder of 72 official NBA records, 63 of which he holds by himself.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain
MJ has 24 NBA records.
Kobe has 9.
by gundersonrogers on Aug 10, 2011 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Wilt has a outstanding case for the greatest player of all time
but i really dont think he is anywhere close to the most accomplished…. just as lebron james is arguably the most talented player of all time, but he is no where near the most accomplished… i want these comments to talk about the players that did the most with the talents they had, not who had the most talents.
the ultimate accomplishment for a player is leading his team to a championship. that is his goal every time he steps on the court. he doesnt set out to break records or compile awards and accolades… those are nice things and are important to the debate but take a back seat to a players collection of rings
again wilt was GREAT but he didnt accomplish nearly enough with his greatness
by robertjamespfeifer on Aug 11, 2011 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I consider the nod to go to Magic honestly
the man could play all 5 positions at an all star level who in this league has ever had that ability?
Certainly my favorite player ever (though not sure we can say he was all-star level at all five positions).
Magic never won a championship without Kareem. And again, Kareem won a championship with a relatively newly minted expansion team.
"Please tell me some of these stories about Los Angeles being the basketball capital of the world." - Red Auerbach
"质量是我们的尊严。服务是我们的电梯。" ("Quality is our dignity. Service is our lift.")
"make em eat your bubbles" - Cup Noodles
i think that would make him the most talented player ever
not the most accomplished
by robertjamespfeifer on Aug 11, 2011 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
yes they should
But they should not put words in my mouth like “so (player) is better than bird? Ok whatever”
I never said that
by robertjamespfeifer on Aug 12, 2011 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I like this topic
Personally I think Luther Head is number 1 and nobody else is close to him. No hating on my opinion, because to me its right and you’re wrong.
Nothing would make me happier than seeing CP3 traded to the Lakers. Mitch, make it happen!
by Vmuse on Jul 29, 2011 10:28 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Kobe can move into that Top 3 easily.
He’s what the NBA needs more of, guys that will do it all without other superstar help (ahem LeBron). He’s clutch in the most important games. Although I hate this lockout, the good thing is that Kobe and the boys are getting some good rest for another championship run.
If Charlie Sheen played for the Leafs, the Leafs would be #winning. If LeBron James played for the Cavs, oh wait, he already did that.
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