Evaluating the Experts: A Look at ESPN's #NBArank
Ranking athletes in any sport is a perilously subjective and inherently difficult exercise, as it is subject to any number of foibles, biases, or idiosyncrasies coming from the unfortunate people creating the ranks based on what they believe to be a fair criteria. Depending on the person, strengths can be exaggerated, weaknesses downplayed, or vice versa, and any hard standards are always at the mercy of the gut check reaction every sports fan has had in which one declares that a certain player can't possibly be considered better than another one in defiance of whatever data is in front of you. The manner, then, that ESPN has attempted to go about ranking every player in the NBA borders on being somewhat equitable: asking 91 of its NBA scribes to provide a rating from one to ten of every player and then averaging out the result. It's simple, has a high sample size to account for various writer quirks, and probably is the most fair way of going about a rather painstaking task. Naturally, no ranking system is perfect, and after the jump, we will review the grades of each of the Laker players, evaluate their immediate companions in the rankings, and look at some implications for the team in the future.
For ease of reading, we will start from the bottom, grouping some players together as appropriate, showing the player, his overall rating, and ranking:
#478: Andrew Goudelock (1.80) | #473: Darius Morris (1.84)
#427: Derrick Caracter (2.20) | #396: Devin Ebanks (2.37)
As far as rankings go, trying to place a concrete value on rookies, especially those who don't have a minute of NBA play to their credit, is downright impossible, but at the same time, these are more or less appropriate. I was pretty bullish on the prospects of both Morris and Goudelock in my review of the Lakers' draft night, but to say that they will amount to something significant that warrants ranking themselves over the tenth and eleventh men of a lot of NBA teams is premature. It's one thing when you're Kyrie Irving (#140/4.99) or Derrick Williams (#196/4.40), the consensus top two players in the draft, and quite another when you're simply good value picks in the second round that happened to have borderline first round grades. Both have a niche that would make them useful to the Lakers next season, so they'll have opportunities to prove themselves.
For Ebanks and Caracter, who both had playing time so sparse one might as well consider rookies, these rankings are also more or less fine. As their D-League play indicates, Ebanks is definitely the better of the two prospects, easily dominating his competition while Caracter struggled with foul trouble and defense. Ebanks, who was a first round prospect that dropped on draft night -- is this starting to sound familiar? -- also stands to get some more burn next season with a spot on the wings open on the bench, and it appears that he is being groomed by the team for the spot. Caracter, on the other hand, likely will have an uphill struggle to even make the team, especially given his IHOP incident, and the large number of cheap veteran bigs that will be available in free agency. From what we have seen of him, he has been working diligently at IMG and participating in the Impact Basketball Academy league, so he may buck that prediction, but I wouldn't expect too much.
#357: Theo Ratliff (2.67) | #353: Joe Smith (2.71)
If you want to know why Pau Gasol looked like a shell of himself after November, I give you Exhibit A and Exhibit B, both of whom defined the Lakers' underwhelming frontcourt depth behind Odom, Bynum, and Gasol. Even before he got injured, Ratliff was barely more than a stop-gap solution, having no offensive utility whatsoever and despite being advertised as a decent defensive player despite his age, looked slow-footed and well, old. Smith, for all the time he got on the court, was equally inadequate, and the Lakers tossed away a first round pick and a somewhat serviceable backup in Sasha Vujacic to see him sit on the bench and to have Jerry Buss pad his bottom line. It's hard to say whether their ranking is deserved or not given the assorted flotsam around them in the 300s and whether they deserve to be ranked above the Laker rookies and sophomores, but a pair of D-League bigs could have easily equaled the meager production Ratliff and Smith brought forth last season.
#318: Luke Walton (3.11)
It's hard to blame Luke for being terrible at basketball given the degree to which his injuries have sapped him of any athleticism or explosiveness, and to his credit, he has handled his situation with grace, noticeably his rather selfless decision to let the much more effective Trevor Ariza start over him in 2009. Save for his ridiculous contract and the fact that he had to play a significant number of non-trivial minutes last season due to Barnes' injury, Luke would be free to swim in the same adulation that fellow bench warmers and victory cigars Adam Morrison and Sun Yue have done.
This noted, Luke's ranking is pretty indefensible given that he was pretty much contributed nothing while on the court past reliving Kobe or World Peace from playing more minutes. His immediate inferior Tristan Thompson (#319/3.09), the number four overall pick, is almost certainly going to be more productive even if one believes that the Cavs made a reach to get him. He's even only five spots away from Jonas Valanciunas (#313/3.14), the number five overall pick who played effectively against tough competition at the Eurobasket and would have went higher if he didn't have a complicated buyout situation.
Moreover, it was a common refrain that Ebanks, who showed some promise in limited action, should have gotten the nod from Phil to fill some of the spot minutes on the wing, and I see little reason why Luke deserves to be ranked 78 spots higher than him. Perhaps he got a few sentimental votes for wearing the purple and gold and being an all-around good guy, but he really has no place anywhere above the bottom heap.
#241: Steve Blake (3.96) | #215: Derek Fisher (4.22)
The ordering of Blake and Fisher here is correct, as Fisher almost certainly had a better year than Blake, who struggled to adapt to the triangle and was plagued by spells of passivity, but how high they're ranked is another question altogether. For instance, Fisher gets the nod over Austin Daye (#217/4.21), Zaza Pachulia (#218/4.20), and Tiago Splitter (#226/4.13), all of whom were generally solid role players on their respective teams and reasonably productive. As much as you want to credit Fisher for his stabilizing presence on the court and off it, his play has dipped to a point where it's a struggle to call him a decent backup, let alone a fifth starter on one of the league's premier teams, and these rankings are putting him above tangibly -- pun intended -- effective players.
Similarly, Blake is getting some rather undeserved love here; some of the players he eclipses include Gerald Henderson (#242/3.95), Wesley Johnson (#245/3.91), and Ronny Turiaf (#247/3.88). It really can't be emphasized enough how completely putrid the Lakers were at the point guard position last year, and the degree to which that hurts the rest of the team. One can blame Gasol's well-publicized struggles for instance, but when your point guards shoot 2-12 every other game, play matador defense, and force every other player to overcompensate for the fact that they're playing 4-on-5 on offense, that matters, if not more, than those other problems. Sure, both Fisher and Blake deserve to be ranked over all of the aforementioned Lakers, but just to twist the knife a little, look at Toney Douglas' (#193/4.43) well-deserved ranking.
#185: Matt Barnes (4.47)
The Lakers' best bench player last year outside of Odom, Barnes was an underrated pickup who had the misfortune to experience the first major injury of his career, which more or less derailed the rest of his season. Before then, he was everything he was advertised to be: a solid cutter, aggressive attacking the offensive glass, and an overall solid energy player. Perhaps this ranking is slightly generous given that he was largely ineffective post-injury, particularly from behind the arc, but his decision to stay on with the Lakers ensures that the wing rotation will be stable next year and he deserves the solid backup label this ranking infers. Regardless, he'll have plenty of opportunities to substantiate his spot next season.
#181: Shannon Brown (4.52)
One wonders whether the rankings split the difference between Brown's borderline Sixth Man of the Year start to the season and his mediocre play for the rest of the year since this ranking is far too high. A borderline top 100 player with the former appellation and the mid-200s with the latter, Brown's year was an up and down roller coaster, although that does not detract from the fact that he was a reasonably serviceable backup when it's all said and done despite his flaws. However, that does not make him better than Luke Ridnour (#182/4.51) or Will Bynum (#188/4.45), both of whom were solid backups at their position last year. In any case, this may all be a moot point given recent comments he has given about his future, as he appears to be leaving for greener pastures next year.
#97: Metta World Peace (5.67)
If anything will keep the newly christened Metta World Peace in the top 100, it will be his defense, which was still elite last season despite wavering effort throughout the season. With his athleticism completely shot at this juncture in his career, MWP's sole utility on offense is his outside shooting, although it would greatly help if he mastered a quicker release and how to shoot in the corner given the implementation of a Spurs-derived offense next season. As for his ranking, it's more or less appropriate, with fellow defensive specialist Shane Battier (#98/5.66) right behind him. It's tempting to chart a decline for him given the number of offseason non-basketball activities we've seen MWP in, but he should be motivated given the way the Lakers went out last year and he'll have a coach supportive of his defensive gifts in Mike Brown, so we'll leave him off the Patrick Ewing and Shawn Kemp post-lockout obesity list for the moment.
#44: Lamar Odom (6.94)
On the other hand, the consensus among your esteemed bloggers is that a certain Kardashian husband will return on the portly side next season, which would be unfortunate given that he had a career year last year that vindicates his top 50 ranking. Hornets fans would likely offer a vigorous debate over whether he was better than his immediate inferior, David West (#46/6.94), but that shiny Sixth Man of the Year trophy likely seals that question. The larger problem is that many aspects of Odom's play, notably his shooting, scream "fluke year," and he'll have to adapt to a new offense in which he'll likely have more ballhandling responsibilities given the team's dearth of even semi-serviceable point guards. As always with Odom, the talent is there to sustain or even exceed this level of play, but there's a lot riding against him repeating last year's stellar performance.
#30: Andrew Bynum (7.45)
Just for the degree to which Bynum embraced his inner Mutombo following the All-Star break to and became the defensive force Laker fans have wanted him to by being at the heart of the Lakers' 17-1 run, this ranking is largely deserving, although there is a healthy dose of optimism for Bynum's future sprinkled in there as well. At his best, he impacts a game more than his immediate inferior Nene (#31/7.41) or even Marc Gasol (#26/7.51), whose rugged consistency stands in contrast to Bynum's explosive potential.
Still only 23 years old, Bynum will be at the forefront of Brown's San Antonio offense next season and will get every chance to prove himself worthy of being a top 30 player. That will depend on whether he can stay healthy, the degree to which he and Pau can mesh in an offense that requires both bigs to play off each other, and whether he can expand his burgeoning post game, but all of those things are certainly possible for Bynum. The question of whether he'll be shipped off for a certain top five player next year aside, Bynum is the only real player on this roster besides the rookies and sophomores who has a chance to significantly outstrip his current ranking, and assuming he can get over clobbering airborne players, it wouldn't be remiss to say that he "got it" last season.
#11: Pau Gasol (8.53)
Whether this ranking is appropriate depends a lot on whether you think MVP Gasol from the start of last season will show up next year or the shell of himself that struggled through the season and showed none of the grace and fluidity on offense that Laker fans have come to associate Pau with. Certainly, it was endearing for those of us who saw Pau struggle so mightily in the playoffs to see him put together a dominant outing in the Eurobasket; respected Euroleague blogger Jay Aych thought that the MVP of the tournament should have gone to Pau instead of Juan Carlos Navarro. Moreover, Pau will get a system next season almost tailored to his talents that will maximize his efficacy at passing out of the high and low post, get him into his favored spots on the block, and make him a weapon off the pick-and-roll, all of the things he needs to maintain his current ranking.
Pau's ranking also brings into question where and how you draw the line between the game's truly elite players and the second tier stars. Immediately below Pau is Carmelo Anthony (#12/8.42), Amar'e Stoudemire (#13/8.39), and Steve Nash (#14/8.33), from which one can discern the "dominant offensive player who is a cardboard cutout on defense" pattern. Even at his very best, it's an open question as to whether Pau can exceed Melo's and Amar'e's offensive explosiveness or Nash's shooting and passing wizardry; however, Pau brings much more on the defensive end -- ignoring the latter half of last season at any rate -- than any of those three and makes the players around him better in a manner that Melo and Amar'e, both notorious black holes on offense, can't. As his time in Memphis showed, Pau can't carry a team as any of those three do on offense, but is arguably a much better complementary player in the larger scheme than any of them. Does that mean he should be ranked higher than either of them? There's naturally no right answer to that question, as you then get into the composition of specific teams, but it's a noticeable reminder of how difficult it is to construct these kinds of rankings.
On another note, Pau is also ranked immediately behind Blake Griffin (#10/8.78), which raises another set of thorny questions. There's no doubt Griffin was an amazing player on offense last season, with absolutely ridiculous conversion rates around the rim and solid rebounding stats, but his lackluster defense would make Stoudemire blanch and his absurd athleticism doesn't completely make up for his lack of a post game or a reliable midrange jumper, all of which Pau has in spades. Come next season, Griffin could make this discussion look positively silly, but one would think that Griffin got some points for potential just as Bynum did.
#7: Kobe Bryant (9.40)
Ah, and now the one ranking that has Laker Nation up in arms. Twitter glowed so blindingly red from sheer outrage when the ranking was released that it's amazing that ESPN was able to find some semi-reasonable tweets to post on Kobe's ranking page. As for yours truly, I have no problem with this ranking. None whatsoever. It's difficult to chart a path through this debate that doesn't enter the radioactive sections, but let's start with this: Kobe is old. He is certainly not at the end of his career or on the verge of some precipitous decline; quite to the contrary, Kobe was -- and will continue to be for the foreseeable future -- an extremely effective player. He is by far the most skilled player in the NBA, his post game alone will keep him in the league's upper echelon, and there's no denying his unshakeable drive.
This noted, Kobe simply can't perform at the level he did during his peak because his body won't allow it. The post game he introduced during the '09-'10 season to great fanfare? Took a big dip in effectiveness because he couldn't elevate enough for his fadeaway to get cleanly over defenders. Same problem with his isolation game as he simply doesn't have his former explosiveness to blow by players and fakes and misdirection can only get you so far. This also contributed to the decline in Kobe's 3P%, as defenders were able to play him tighter without fearing him on the drive. On the other side of the court, Kobe clearly mailed in defensive possessions and his free safety defense became a liability due to his diminishing lateral quickness. How much of this was a result of a bad knee and ankle is debatable, but both aren't great signs at his age, and Kobe had to go to huge lengths to stay on the court last season despite his legendary pain tolerance. No doubt it was a relief to see him hammer down two sweet dunks in the playoffs against the Hornets, but it's always going to be an open question how gracefully his body will let him wind down his career.
Of course, Kobe isn't one to rest on his laurels, and he certainly has confirmed that this offseason. Besides getting an experimental knee procedure to stimulate the healing in his balky knee, Kobe stopped by the Drew League to show off his new Dirk-esque fadeaway, which solves the previous separation problem and is probably the highest praise Kobe can bestow on any single player, as well as drop in a sick game winner after a 45 point effort. How effective Kobe is next season depends a lot on how well he adapts to Brown's new offense and what his body will allow him to do, as he will likely take on a more of a distributing role as a primary ball-handler while Brown shifts some of the offensive responsibilities to the bigs. Thanks to Kevin Ding, we can determine that Kobe is likely to be amenable to Brown's philosophy, and there's definitely space for him to flourish as a set up man and off ball threat in addition to his regular diet of isolation plays. Given the relative youth of the players in front and behind him, it's unlikely that Kobe goes past the top five next year barring him learning how to shoot like Ray Allen, but again, that doesn't mean he can't be tremendously effective as he usually is, albeit in a different role.
And there you have it. It's no secret that the Lakers are a top-heavy team, with four players in the top 50 and three in the top 30, and the rest all below the top 200 with the exception of Brown and Barnes, both of whom played like sub-200 players when it counted in any case. This is particularly why Gasol's bad play was so damaging, as with no other consistent options, it was more or less impossible to make up for Pau's production. We can attribute the Lakers' lack of depth to numerous things, whether they are bad free agent decisions or a poor handling of the draft, but clearly, the supporting pillars around the Laker core will definitely have to be replaced for the team to contend next season. A quick look at the Mavericks' roster, in which there are seven players in the top 100, one of whom (Caron Butler) didn't even play during Dallas' playoff run, is testament enough.
With that in mind, let's take a brief look at the ranks of the players whom we have talked about as potential trade targets or free agent replacements:
#34: Andre Iguodala (7.29) | #41: Monta Ellis (7.05)
Both possible trade targets for Odom, this ranking offers the pretty clear verdict that Iggy is the better choice, which jives with previous thought on the matter. Ellis' slim lead on Odom also reflects how such a trade could be potentially dangerous, as there's a lot of things that need to go right for Ellis to have a successful transition in L.A.
#141: Mike Dunleavy (4.97) | #228: Marco Belinelli (4.10)
One can question whether Dunleavy can be had for whatever cap exceptions make it out of the hell that the CBA negotiations currently are in, but there's no question here that he's an upgrade on Brown and would be a solid backup. Belinelli is much dicier, but he clearly is a good shooter, which is enough for this team, and the alternatives in Michael Redd (#252/3.80) and Anthony Parker (#259/3.73) are much worse.
#232: Jeff Foster (4.04) | #263: Troy Murphy (3.66) | #304: Kwame Brown (3.23)
All cheap, veteran vets who won't get crushed if they have to play 10-15 minutes a night as fourth and fifth bigs. Foster is clearly the best available backup, but the Lakers aren't looking for miracle workers this far down the depth chart and it's testament to how terrible Ratliff and Smith were that they couldn't even fulfill this meager role. Any serviceable big would be fine here really.
Altogether, while it is nice to dream of Dwight Howard, the Lakers should consider it a successful offseason if they are able to fill in the ends of the roster with serviceable role players. As the rankings above indicate, any notion that the Lakers primary core still can't contend for a championship is ludicrous, but the team success' will be directly correlated to how well the players around that core will chip in to help bring another title back to L.A.
Follow this author on Twitter @brosales12.
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I don't think you'll ever get over
Toney Douglas… lol
Going back to finish now…
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
Dam what a weak crowd in game 5.
Kobe with 2 explosive dunks and like 10 people got out of their seats. I was at home watching on TV and I went berserk :/
Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer
by afrikabamboodle on Oct 18, 2011 1:01 PM PDT reply actions
What?
It looks like he got standing ovations for both dunks.
Crowd reaction looked a little weak though
Compare it to the cheers after his sick reverse double pump dunk in ’08 that basically sealed the MVP conversation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMptipbXh7I
Might be the angle, but felt like the crowd cheered a lot harder at that one.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Seeing Kobe use the Dirk jumper in his repertoire was cool.
I can’t wait to see it during an NBA season.
What is this "NBA season" you speak of?
I only know winter, spring, summer and fall.
You're only a success for the moment that you complete a successful act. - Tex Winter
Tweetness
Interesting. I must look into this.
Where can I find the information?
You're only a success for the moment that you complete a successful act. - Tex Winter
Tweetness
Sounds good to me. Thx!
You're only a success for the moment that you complete a successful act. - Tex Winter
Tweetness
Zach Lowe said the Lakers bought a championship.
Anybody know which championship team one would consider to be bought? I can’t think of one.
No idea
kinda makes no sense if you ask me. How do you buy something that must be earned on the floor?
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
I hear it all the time in baseball because I'm a Yankee fan.
I guess the premise is trading trash for a diamond (Pau Gasol) and signing free agent superstars or former all-stars.
Lowe's a relentless Laker hater.
The last time the Lakers “bought” a player (I can only assume he means paying free agents more than other teams, or something along those lines, as that’s the only way to gain an edge by paying more) was when the Lakers got Shaq. Four years later, with the only other all-star being a draft pick we got at the END of the lottery, and had to trade for, it turned into championships. Other than that, there have been tons of free agent signings and sign and trades of all-stars and superstars, and not once have they gone to the Lakers. Did the Lakers “buy” a good roster by trading future picks and a good prospect for an all-star? Or because the Lakers got a player who’s good, but never been an all-star, to resign? Or for overpaying for a past-his-prime former all-star?
I apologize if this rant seemed a bit out of nowhere, but I’ve heard too much Laker bashing, and dismissal of all the stuff that the organization’s won, like they bought out the league and all it’s talent.
Its cool. I think Zach Lowe is really good at what he does.
I’m just thinking aloud about which Laker team he thinks bought a championship.
HIs point was more nuanced though
He was trying to say that you have to get all your primary pieces through the draft, and I would say that he actually was trying to say that the Lakers’ primary success was drafting Kobe, not necessarily getting free agents. He later said that while having money helps, you still need savvy management regardless of how you try to create competitive balance. Actually, I say he fits with the notion that you have to use the draft as a primary tool to fill your roster, and you could say that the Lakers’ mismanagement of the draft recently has hurt them.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
He did emphasize the draft. I'm just wondering Laker team he thinks bought a championship.
Maybe that statement slipped while he was thinking aloud about what makes teams successful.
I think he meant that the Lakers have had the wherewithal to deal with bad decisions
By throwing money money at the problem, as the only championships you can say that the Lakers “bought” were the ones due to Shaq, and even then, that took more roster moves, a coaching change, and didn’t happen overnight.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Bought a Championship, huh?
The Championships were won before the Lakers extended all of their guys. It was earned first then paid for.
Follow me on Twitter: @wondahbap
"open your eyes and brain then see in next five years from now will see what happen okay." - Nam Pham
Can't agree.
Wouldn’t take Dirk/Howard/LeBron/Durant over Kobe.
You can only reasonably make the case for D-Wade and Chris Paul.
Dirk: Improved defender, but still much more of a liability than Kobe is (if he is at all, since his free-safety D earned him First-Team honors from the coaches).
Howard: Still isn’t a consistently effective offensive player.
LeBron: Really starting to worry me with his late-game disappearances. I don’t hate the guy, I think he’s a phenomenal player, but I don’t know what his deal is and this is happening too often.
Durant: Not as good driving to the basket IMO, despite Brendan Haywood’s objections. Plus, he isn’t an elite defender either.
But it’s all good. I’m pretty sure Kobe is reading these articles and is ready to prove them wrong. Again, and again, and again.
Thought we’d learn the Mamba’s lesson by now. GO LAKERS.
"I was just letting the shots fly. You know, I don't leave any bullets in the chamber."
"Everything negative- pressure, challenges- is all an opportunity for me to rise."
-Kobe Bryant
Chris Mortensen: "You know it's the 'Show-Me' State right Sam?"
"Pshh, 'Show Me.' (smirking) Yeah, I've heard that."
-Sam Bradford
You're really overrating Kobe's defense here
It’s not that he can’t play stellar defense, but that he rarely did so last season and his free safety defense was actually harmful last season, as he doesn’t have the quickness anymore to be that effective in that role. He couldn’t (or wouldn’t in a lot of cases) recover to shooters and was definitely more prone to being beat in one-on-one situations. As I said in the article, you have to question how much of that was because of a bum wheel, but one way or another, Kobe didn’t perform well on defense last season and there was a pretty clear consensus, even on this site, that Kobe didn’t deserve first team honors for the effort he put in last season.
As for the rest of them, I find it pretty hard to argue that Kobe had a better season than any of the above players. Dirk was obviously dominant in the playoffs, I’m shocked that you consider Howard unreliable considering that he was the only thing keeping Orlando remotely afloat last year, the Kobe/LeBron shtick is a mostly set discussion at this point in Kobe’s career, and I find it hard to say that Kobe was better at driving to the basket than Durant given that the former barely had any explosiveness to do so with. Again, Kobe definitely can improve next year with a clean bill of health, a few new tricks under his sleeve, and changing his approach more to accommodate how the bigs are going to be used in Brown’s offense, but to say that he was better than any of the aforementioned players given what we saw last year is a pretty tough call.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
You think Dirk should be above Durant and the Chris Paul should be that high as well
I mean, I like Paul, but he’s also similarly limited like Kobe due to surgery. He can’t explode every game. Dirk was obviously dominant in the playoffs, but I don’t think last year he was a better overall player than Kobe, just a more effective shooter (obvious rebound difference aside) which is one role as part of a larger better whole. I mean I don’t even think Kobe should move up that far because these guys 4-7 are interchangeable depending on circumstance, but to me Kobe is the most multifaceted of all of them currently. Obviously, factoring upside, that’s why I think the no. 7 spot is ok since he’s the oldest, but I also think he could’ve been placed as high as 4
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
It's close. You're right that the end of last year probably factors in quite a bit
But I felt Kobe looked much more limited than any of these guys, again, likely due to his bad wheel, but that should be relevant. Maybe it’s also the degree to which he struggled last year to play his usual style of ball and forced it a lot when he didn’t have to. Paul was definitely handed a huge gift bag in the form of the Lakers’ disorganized P&R defense and Fisher’s pathetic effort that allowed him to end the year with a bang, although you have to judge whether the passivity he got due to his injuries was worse than Kobe’s over-aggressiveness. I would order it Dirk/Durant/Paul/Kobe; like you said there’s a bit of flexibility there, but Paul might be the only one I give Kobe an edge over.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
I think you gotta define what you value, and how much as well.
Are you putting your placement based on what they’d do in a game right now, or how well they did last season? If it’s right now, the injuries to Kobe and Paul don’t really matter, unless they’re hampering them (I’m gonna say probably not)
And besides that, do you value post season a lot more than regular season or not? If you give last season’s post season a lot of extra weight because it’s the most important games, Paul and Dirk look really damn good. On the other hand Kobe was actually on the floor more than Nowitzki during the regular season, and Paul was inconsistent the whole way through. Kobe flared out a little in the playoffs, but in a sample size of 90 or so games, that’s not as big a deal. If those last 10 games mean a lot extra, it is though. And Durant’s placement could easily be above all 3 of them if we combine the both of them, but he didn’t have as good a postseason as Paul and Dirk, how do you personally factor that? These two things are a big deal, it determines a lot.
I dunno, I’m just talkin’ out loud here. I don’t think any one in the top 7 is clearly better than any one else really, with the possible exceptions of LBJ and Dwight, it all depends on what you personally think is important.
You have to weigh each and see what the picture you get out of it comes out like
It’s not a hard science, as some rankings are wont to be, and context matters quite a bit, but I think the best way to go about it is to look at last season and see the current ranking as a spot in time. The postseason should receive more weight than an equivalent amount of offseason games since you’re past the, “Oh, he was conserving energy for the playoffs” shtick, teams actually start game-planning against one another seriously, and the better players tend to step up. Given that you can draw a rough parallel statistically between the regular season for the four of them, it becomes important then to consider the postseason as more of a determining factor.
Maybe if Kobe didn’t have a bad wheel we would be talking a different tune here, but Paul had the same problem and he looked like vintage CP3 for a series. As for Dirk and Durant, they obviously had better playoff runs that both Kobe and Paul, and while you hate to judge on last impressions, they provided more when it mattered most. But again, context matters. If we absolutely knew that Kobe was going to be healthy next season, then you could wave this off as an outlier, but as this isn’t the case because you have to factor in Kobe’s age and the question of whether this actually represents where he is right now.
For an example that offers a different take, let’s look at the Gasol quandary that I note above. I think we all agree that Pau was a top ten player for the early part of the season and then suffered greatly from the minute overload. He probably deserves some flak for not snapping out of his funk after his minutes became reasonable, but we could see fairly clearly that old Pau was back during the Eurobasket, so considering his poor play in the latter half of the season as an outlier probably applies. Does that make him better than Melo? Maybe not in a pure, individualized player comparison, but Melo’s faults (being a primarily isolation based player who is a black hole on offense and plays terrible defense) I would argue are worse for his team overall than Gasol’s, so there’s another added bit of context to consider independent of whatever happened last year.
Really, any ranking system comes down to contextual stuff that can run the gamut between individual players and it’s hard to quantify any of it until you sit back and look at a pair of players. Even then, it really just comes down to how well you construct an argument for one side or another by weighing the various factors going into the ranking, and even then, it’s hard to say whether you’re right or wrong. In the case of Kobe though, I find the arguments for the people ranked in front of him pretty convincing.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
You really think you can dump it Dwight everytime and he'll score?
With his sloppy footwork and Free-Throw Liability?
Shaq had the same liability, but he more than made up for it with his sheer power/soft touch/quick spin ability. THAT’S a consistent scorer.
You really think Dwight is there now? 23 PPG during the Regular Season makes him 11th, barely ahead of Kevin Love.
"I was just letting the shots fly. You know, I don't leave any bullets in the chamber."
"Everything negative- pressure, challenges- is all an opportunity for me to rise."
-Kobe Bryant
Chris Mortensen: "You know it's the 'Show-Me' State right Sam?"
"Pshh, 'Show Me.' (smirking) Yeah, I've heard that."
-Sam Bradford
Did u see him against the Hawks?
footwork- solid
destroyed everything they threw at him.
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
I did actually.
But that’s a small sample size. According to these rankings, it’s over the course of the season.
"I was just letting the shots fly. You know, I don't leave any bullets in the chamber."
"Everything negative- pressure, challenges- is all an opportunity for me to rise."
-Kobe Bryant
Chris Mortensen: "You know it's the 'Show-Me' State right Sam?"
"Pshh, 'Show Me.' (smirking) Yeah, I've heard that."
-Sam Bradford
I mean,
the team is organized around him and his rebounding and takeover at the end of last season once they attempted to stop being such a three-heavy team was very impressive. He’s under-utilized in the post especially when he had mismatches due to the system relying so much on his presence to kick out for threes
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
Well let's see it play out over an entire season.
I’m not saying he’s a bad offensive player by any means, but I am saying he isn’t consistently dominant.
"I was just letting the shots fly. You know, I don't leave any bullets in the chamber."
"Everything negative- pressure, challenges- is all an opportunity for me to rise."
-Kobe Bryant
Chris Mortensen: "You know it's the 'Show-Me' State right Sam?"
"Pshh, 'Show Me.' (smirking) Yeah, I've heard that."
-Sam Bradford
his post moves are great
he can spin past defenders with his athleticism and quickness. Also his presence down low attracts double teams, which helps space the floor for open shooters. Forget PPG, he does this all at a 59% clip, which is pretty damn consistent. Efficiency is what matters here, not volume, otherwise Andrea Bargnani would be considered an elite center.
"Great" is reserved for Hakeem Olojuwan.
The best you can say for anyone is “good” (i.e. Shaq, Duncan).
I don’t think Dwight is there. Take the eyeball test and tell me you think Howard is in the same league as the guys in the “good” category.
"I was just letting the shots fly. You know, I don't leave any bullets in the chamber."
"Everything negative- pressure, challenges- is all an opportunity for me to rise."
-Kobe Bryant
Chris Mortensen: "You know it's the 'Show-Me' State right Sam?"
"Pshh, 'Show Me.' (smirking) Yeah, I've heard that."
-Sam Bradford
I never said he is as good as those guys
we have to wait till his career is done before classifying him for one of those groups. For now though, he is the premier center in this game, and probably the best player right now thats not named LeBron. How you can find him to not be a consistently effective offensive player is beyond me.
Al Horford ahead of Bynum?
and LO in the 40s? That chart is wack. What exactly are these rankings even based on?
"I don't mind being the goat. I don't mind being the villain, hated. I've been that my whole career, so it's not like that's anything new. I don't mind people jumping on the bandwagon or jumping off. I just focus on playing the game." -Ron Artest
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." -Confucius
u think LO should've been higher??
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
Ehh...
It doesn’t bother me by the actual ranking, but the players that ranked higher than him… (Josh Smith? I’d take LO over him any day) Wasn’t LO also being considered for the All-Star team as well? I think it was him, Aldridge, and Kevin Love going for the last spot. and both of those guys are over 20 ranks ahead of him. I are confused…
"I don't mind being the goat. I don't mind being the villain, hated. I've been that my whole career, so it's not like that's anything new. I don't mind people jumping on the bandwagon or jumping off. I just focus on playing the game." -Ron Artest
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." -Confucius
The rankings themselves are incredibly confusing
players much more polished than Blake Griffin and only slightly older didn’t get nearly as much love. I mean I like Blake, but no. 10 #cmonson
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
#voteforpotential
Only way John Wall broke the top fifty also, IMO.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Yeah, LO deserved that ranking, but he's top a top 40 player by any measure
As for Horford, he had a much more consistent year than Bynum and stayed healthy. Post-ASG Bynum was better, but he took a while to get going.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
LO is not necessarily a top 40 player by any measure. I think lakers’ fans really got caught up with LO playing well during spurts this past season, but it wasn’t his best season as a pro, and Terry probably should’ve won the 6th man award, and let’s not forget LO and Bynum have each 0 AS game appearances. Bynum is rightfully rated ahead of LO, but he’s still too high as well. He has never shown during any season to sustain high performance for any extended period of time, only sporadic spurts.
It’s not as interesting to see where everyone is ranked, but probably more interesting to see who the ‘experts’ are that are ranking them. Probably at least half of them are rather clueless, and rely heavily on PER and misleading advanced stats. Kobe was obviously seriously hurt in the playoffs, so that might be a legitimate factor to weigh in. But, I seriously doubt if he’ll stay injured if the nba ever decides to play some games. Paul has always been overrated. Let’s not forget who was guarding him in the playoffs last year: fisher and blake. And the one game that kobe guarded him, game 2, Paul was extremely frustrated and the hornets offense was terrible, and kobe was playing on a leg and a half. Not to mention, Paul was a complete no-show in game 6, an elimination game. Dirk was king of last year, but if they’re ranking for the upcoming year, then dirk shouldn’t be #1. Lebron really has never been the best player in the nba for any given reg. season/postseason. Not only has he shown he’s incapable of leading a team through 4 rounds of playoffs, but he often just quits on his team, and still doesn’t truly understand how to play team basketball.
Kobe is still an elite defender. He’s one of the few elite lockdown and help defenders. Some past defenders like bowen were basically just lockdown defenders. Kobe does it all. And Kobe is the leader on the lakers’ defense, unlike most other teams, where the last line of defense, the center, is almost always calling out rotations, etc. on defense. Kobe does it for the lakers. The coaches vote for the all-defensive teams, and they generally know a lot more about the game than the media members, who vote for some other awards.
by express34texas on Oct 19, 2011 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions
They already did
and u cld prolly name 10 more than they did.
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson
"I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence." -Lupe Fiasco
Overall, 2010-2011 was LO's best season.
You're only a success for the moment that you complete a successful act. - Tex Winter
Tweetness
Oh wow, thanks for making me re-look at the list. I definitely wouldn’t take any of the 43 ahead of LO, and I could name at least 10 more behind him I would take ahead of LO. He was greatly overhyped up last year. And as we saw in the playoffs, Terry was a much better 6 man. LO is more or less ‘lost’ out there 1/2 the time, his nickname mr, inconsistent is there for a reason. He’s not even a borderline AS. He’s a very good #4 guy on a contender, maybe borderline #3 guy, that’s it. I think people saw some signs of LO last season that he was getting his act together, but that couldn’t last, just like premature reports for Pau for MVP. LO’s had several better seasons that last year, might want to re-look at his past seasons some.
by express34texas on Oct 19, 2011 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Err, meant not* a top 40 player by any measure
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
And dude, were you watching any of last year?
Kobe was lazy as hell on defense and rarely displayed any great concentration on that end, not to mention that he was beaten far more often in one-on-one situations. He would just refuse to recover to a shooter and let him shoot at least once a game, and it grew increasingly apparent as the season went on.
As for the LeBron hate, sure, he deserves all your opprobrium for failing miserably when it counted, but saying that he or Dwight weren’t the top two players is just silly. There’s a point where hate becomes irrational and that’s the case here. If you want an example contrary to his relative suckiness in the Finals, look at the Chicago series, where he basically won a few games by himself.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
I watched every single game.
As did the coaches who went up against the Lakers last season.
Think you know more than them? Otherwise, you’re just questioning their integrity/fanhood, but why the hell would the vote for Kobe if they didn’t see his D?
Actually, Doc Rivers knows a little about defense. I’ll take his word for it as far as Kobe goes. He obviously isn’t the only coach that felt that way.
Your head is just focusing on the times that he let people shoot. Kobe knows percentages of outside shooters and plays by them. If he sagged, it was probably because he thought there was a good chance the shooter would miss.
Plus, does anyone on this list, or in the league in general, give it max effort on D on every single play? It seems you’re implying that because Kobe didn’t go all out on every play, that he was somehow bad on Defense. It just wasn’t the case, and I was watching the same games you were. I’ll take the Coaches’ opinion ahead of both of ours.
"I was just letting the shots fly. You know, I don't leave any bullets in the chamber."
"Everything negative- pressure, challenges- is all an opportunity for me to rise."
-Kobe Bryant
Chris Mortensen: "You know it's the 'Show-Me' State right Sam?"
"Pshh, 'Show Me.' (smirking) Yeah, I've heard that."
-Sam Bradford
why the hell would the vote for Kobe if they didn’t see his D?
Kobe’s got quite a reputation, ya know… It’s easy to be biased..
I do agree Kobe was lazy at defense this season, however we all know he has the potential to be a lockdown defender. I guess it just takes alot more as you get older.
"I don't mind being the goat. I don't mind being the villain, hated. I've been that my whole career, so it's not like that's anything new. I don't mind people jumping on the bandwagon or jumping off. I just focus on playing the game." -Ron Artest
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." -Confucius
So Doc Rivers voted for him off reputation?
As did the other 29? Please. This isn’t a buddy-buddy league. Kobe was good on D this year, and he wouldn’t be on the 1st-Team otherwise. To say he wasn’t as good as he normally is (or in years past) would be more fair, but he’s still in the top 5/10 and the 1st Team reflected that.
Hell, there were a couple of years earlier in his career (2001-2002) that he didn’t make that list. He even made the 3rd team All-NBA once (2005). Think his reputation helped him at all those years?
"I was just letting the shots fly. You know, I don't leave any bullets in the chamber."
"Everything negative- pressure, challenges- is all an opportunity for me to rise."
-Kobe Bryant
Chris Mortensen: "You know it's the 'Show-Me' State right Sam?"
"Pshh, 'Show Me.' (smirking) Yeah, I've heard that."
-Sam Bradford
Dude, it's basically established fact that most coaches delegate the responsibility for voting
To some random PR staffer or similar because there have been downright ridiculous votes the last few years (David Lee anyone?). They treat it like a joke, otherwise Tony Allen and Andre Iguodala would have won first team last year by a mile. Kobe is a big name, they don’t have to think that hard about the selection, and it was almost solely based on reputation. Even Lakers-based journalists — Mark Medina and Brian Kamenetzky, both of whom are pretty fair and intelligent analysts — don’t think Kobe deserved it:
http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/lakers/post//id/18232/ron-artest-on-the-dpoy-award
blank">http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2011/05/kobe-bryant-named-to-nbas-all-defensive-team-for-ninth-time.html
I am not saying that Kobe can’t play great defense, but he clearly 1) doesn’t try hard, which isn’t new, but it was particularly endemic last year 2) has reduced lateral quickness, whether it was due to his bad wheel or not, that made him much less effective in one-on-one spots, especially keeping with his man through screens 3) didn’t contribute a whole lot with his regular free safety defense, which usually allows him to zone off areas of the floor, play passing lanes, and help with ball denial, all of which he didn’t really do a whole lot last year. There’s a big difference between “can” and “did,” the latter of which didn’t show up a whole lot last year.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Then I'm wondering if we really watched the same games...
…I think you’re just overreacting to the drop in the quality of his D compared to his actual D. It went from Great to Very Good. You’re simply assuming that since it isn’t Great that it’s suddenly bad or not elite. Because you’re aware of how great he can be at that end, anything less is going to seem worse than it actually is.
I thought it was still very good, and elite at that. It just wasn’t AS good by HIS standards. Also, I’d like proof that coaches vote on these things with their PR staffers. Then I might shut the hell up about the coaches’ factor in the voting.
Also, if it was reputation, why would Kobe be on a second-team All-D(2000, 2001) as well as missing entirely (2005), AND barely making the 3rd-team all NBA in 2005? That’s quite a few omissions if the “coaches,” or PR staff if you’d like, vote solely on reputation. Unless you’re saying that 2000, 2001, or 2005 Kobe was so bad at defense that they overlooked his 3 First-Team selections before 2005, which seems like enough of a reputation to give him the nod there. Mind you, his numbers that season were on par with his career averages (27.6 PPG, 6 RPG, 6 APG, 1.3 SPG, .8 BPG). Why didn’t his “reputation” get him the recognition there? The team’s performance? Surely a PR staffer can ignore that.
"I was just letting the shots fly. You know, I don't leave any bullets in the chamber."
"Everything negative- pressure, challenges- is all an opportunity for me to rise."
-Kobe Bryant
Chris Mortensen: "You know it's the 'Show-Me' State right Sam?"
"Pshh, 'Show Me.' (smirking) Yeah, I've heard that."
-Sam Bradford
You'd rate it as "very good"?
Granted, I’m not calling Kobe’s defense bad by any means as he still was a generally smart defender last year despite not being able to move well laterally, but the only thing I’d call “very good” last year was his ball denial, which is still world-class. Pretty much everything else rounds out at “above average” at best, and that’s assuming Kobe gave an honest effort on that end, as there were plenty of games where he simply mailed it in. Part of the reason Artest is there is so Kobe doesn’t have to try and can play his usual free safety defense to minimal detriment, but Kobe wasn’t even particularly focused on lesser wing players last season. With his bad wheel and the offense troubles we were going through last season, I wouldn’t blame him, but there’s no way he was more deserving than either Tony Allen or Andre Iguodala, both of whom were lockdown defenders at their position last season.
As for the point about coaches not really caring about the vote, here’s Probasketballtalk’s Kurt Helin, another former Laker blogger:
The votes on NBA All-Defensive team are often more about reputation than how somebody is actually performing.
In theory coaches vote on this award, but it’s taken about as seriously as the coaches ballots in college football polls. Which means sometimes an assistant fills it out, sometimes the team PR guy, pretty much anyone but a cheerleader.
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/09/howard-leads-nba-all-defensive-team-but-with-kobe/
If you want more, here’s ESPN’s John Hollinger:
As longtime readers know, I’ve been doing my All-Defensive team at this time of the season for the past several years, and it’s again time for the nominations. Note that in the real world, the writers don’t decide who makes it. Instead, the league’s coaches cast the ballots (allegedly, anyway — looking at recent votes, it’s pretty easy to conclude at least a few coaches were “outsourcing”) after the season.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-110406
I’m not really sure what you’re getting at about Kobe’s 2005 season either. Even PR guys and assistants were aware that Kobe wasn’t having that great of a year in Rudy T’s system, was hampered by injuries, and that the Lakers sucked that year, so there wasn’t a whole lot of reason to uphold any sort of reputation there. He STILL nearly made the team anyways with 12 votes, three of them first team ones.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Wow, are you way off on the analysis of Kobe’s defense. Sure, Kobe was better on defense 5-6 years ago, but he’s still an elite defender. Like I said, he’s the vocal leader on defense for the lakers, telling everyone to go. This responsibility is primarily designated to the teams’ centers, and the lakers actually have a good defensive big in Bynum, but yet Kobe is the one controlling the team’s defense while in the game. And I think the coaches actually know just a bit more than you or I. Now, if you want to argue that you know more than most media members, then, yea, I’m behind you 100%, but not the coaches or GMs. I seriously doubt any, if many, people involved with the game would claim artest is better defensively than Kobe, but we all have our opinions, I guess.
Kobe’s reputation is still more of a bad one than a good one overall in society, I strongly disagree with the notion that his reputation is getting him undeserved awards. It’s just that few people truly understand what is going on in the game, even lakers’ fans, when it concerns Kobe’s defense. While us lakers’ fans love Kobe, I don’t think most of us truly realize just how amazing he really is.
The Tony Allen argument is an easy one. Allen didn’t play nearly as many minutes as Kobe, and Allen’s primarily a man-man defender. These types of defenders get graded well because they generally do a good job on their man, but their overall team defense and help defense isn’t that good. This is why guys like Allen from the media’s eyes, which are the articles that the fans read mislead our perceptions of who is actually an elite defender in the league. Don’t get me wrong, Allen’s a good defender, but he’s still not as good as Kobe. Kobe means a whole lot more and does a whole lot more than Allen with their respective defenses. And the notion that Kobe takes plays off and other guys don’t is just plain not true.
by express34texas on Oct 20, 2011 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Did you watch Allen play defense last year?
By far the best one-on-one defender in the league. And off the ball too — Kobe definitely is still excellent at ball denial, even last year, but Allen was right up there as well. Sure, he doesn’t have a whole lot of offensive responsibility and Kobe does and whatnot, but hey, what actually happens on the court matters. Allen shouldn’t get penalized for an honor centering on defense and nothing else because he can concentrate on playing good defense without worrying about other parts of his game. Saying that Kobe was better than him last season is just so, so blatantly wrong. In a vacuum comparing the two straight-up with no context? That’s different, sure, and you can make a lot more arguments for Kobe. But definitely not when comparing what the two actually did on the court last year.
And again, I’m emphatically not saying Kobe is bad on defense. Far from it — he’s still solid in most respects, but didn’t give it his all at that end last year, probably since he had to conserve his legs for offense, which has always been the case, but especially last year with all of his various maladies and the team’s offensive dysfunction. Moreover, I’m not saying that I’m smarter than any of the coaches (except Vinny Del Negro but everyone is, so I digress), but rather pointing out that a lot of coaches don’t give a crap about the reward, which is reflected, as Helin and Hollinger note above, in some particularly inane voting that either meant that the coaches were indifferent or they outsourced it to some random bloke on their bench. Finally, when even Lakers-based media members are saying that Kobe wasn’t really deserving of being All-Defense last year — and they’ve watched more of the Lakers than any coach in the league other than the Lakers’ own staff — I’m more than inclined to say that it confirms my beliefs than going off a group in which half didn’t care and the other half barely paid close attention to Kobe last year beyond knowing his reputation as a solid defender.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Larry Hughes made the 2005 First Team and he played less games than Kobe.
66 for Kobe. 61 for Hughes.
Tim Duncan played in 66 games as well.
Ben Wallace played in 74.
I’m going to assume that these players sat some games because of injury. Mind you, they all were named to the First-Team.
As for the 2nd team, which Kobe also failed to make:
Marcus Camby played in only 66 games.
Jason Kidd played in only 66 games.
Andrei Kirilenko played in (gulp) only 41 games.
Let me reiterate that Kobe had already been selected to the first team 3 times, and the second team 2 times. I think that would have been enough of a reputation to garner first, or AT LEAST 2nd team honors if Kobe played at least as good defense as he did THIS season.
So what happened that year that made it any different? He had as many games on the court as about half of the selected players on each team, and significantly more time than Hughes and Kirilenko. As I recall, he was pretty young, thereby his lateral quickness/passing lane playing was still great, and despite the team’s struggles, he was his typically great self.
On top of that, Washington, Utah, and New Jersey weren’t world beaters record wise, which is the only factor Hughes, Kirilenko, and Kidd would have over Kobe to justify their selections.
Thereby, given these circumstances, why was Kobe’s reputation overlooked by PR-Staffers, or Coaches?
And if there exists an example that Kobe did not get selected to either Defensive Team due to his reputation, how can you claim he gets selected based on reputation at any other point? I’m not saying that every situation is the same, but that it seems inconsistent that you can claim it in this circumstance but not explain why it didn’t happen exactly the same way in 2005. I mean, at least 2nd team over Kirilenko or Kidd? Come on.
Unless of course, Kobe is much better on defense than you’re giving him credit for. Perhaps for the communication/leader role alone that express43texas notes. I think it’s more than that, his help defense was still superb. Many times he handled his 1v1 roles well, though admittedly not as well as in years past. But I never saw any noticeable drop, at least not an alarming one.
I honestly feel it’s an overreaction to his not playing to his normal standards, not an actual significant drop in his defensive prowess/intensity/importance.
"I was just letting the shots fly. You know, I don't leave any bullets in the chamber."
"Everything negative- pressure, challenges- is all an opportunity for me to rise."
-Kobe Bryant
Chris Mortensen: "You know it's the 'Show-Me' State right Sam?"
"Pshh, 'Show Me.' (smirking) Yeah, I've heard that."
-Sam Bradford
If I recall correctly, Kirilenko was really damn good on defense that year
In the time that he played and led the league in blocks per game as an undersized four despite only playing half the year. In any case, I’m not going to parse through Kobe’s performance that year since I don’t remember enough specifics on top of my honest attempt to delete that year from my memory, but at that point, the Lakers were basically Kobe’s team and the team in general was terrible, which, fairly or unfairly, reflected on him. If you want to go through advanced metrics — which hold a bit more weight here since we’re comparing Kobe to himself instead of other players — Dtrg paints him as well below his career norms and his PER — again, okay since this is as versus Kobe himself — indicates that his offense was well below his usual standard. Did the voters know that? It’s debatable, but it’s easy for them to see the correlation between the Lakers’ success resting on solely Kobe’s soldiers and Kobe less than succeeding in that role from the onset. That doesn’t require any terribly complicated analysis beyond looking at the storylines of that year and picking out some key players on the league’s better teams. It’s reputation when the Lakers are good, Kobe can safely be assumed to be so as well, and there’s no need to actually micro-analyze Kobe’s actual defense there. Regardless, trying to extrapolate something out of this doesn’t really hold water here, and I refer you to Helin and Hollinger above if you still believe otherwise, and Medina and Kamenetzky, both of whom arguably watched more Laker basketball than you or I and are pretty solid analysts from my experience with their writing, if you still think Kobe was deserving last year.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
You'd take Kirilenko for 41 games over 66 from Kobe?
Under any circumstances? Plus, I already established that at least 3 of those players on either the 1st or 2nd squad didn’t have good records either. So there isn’t a factor to be considered unless the coaches (or PR staffers) genuinely thought Kobe wasn’t as good or his reputation had NO bearing on his selection, then or now.
Now you’re just qualifying: reputation when the Lakers are good. Wouldn’t that entail the same criteria for the other players and their respective teams?
Watching Basketball =/= Understanding Basketball from an on-court perspective. Helin/Hollinger saying PR staffers and not coaches vote on this =/= reality (necessarily). I’ll take Doc Rivers’ quote on Kobe’s D last year over the opinion of any ESPN writer. I’m pretty sure he knows a lot more about defense than anyone here.
"I was just letting the shots fly. You know, I don't leave any bullets in the chamber."
"Everything negative- pressure, challenges- is all an opportunity for me to rise."
-Kobe Bryant
Chris Mortensen: "You know it's the 'Show-Me' State right Sam?"
"Pshh, 'Show Me.' (smirking) Yeah, I've heard that."
-Sam Bradford
AK47 played much fewer games that season
roughly half as many minutes, and had twice as many defensive win shares than Kobe. Also had a better defensive rating.
Defensive rating? How do you even know that’s a good stat? And to say someone playing 1/2 games deserves all-nba recognition is rather quite not right. But,regardless, Trojan is right. He’s come up with several good examples about how foolish it is to say that Kobe’s ‘reputation’ is earning up all-defensive team spots. 2005 was a different year for Kobe. He was public enemy #1. The media didn’t even give him 1 MVP vote. And the coaches certainly shafted him a bit on the all-nba and all-defensive teams, but he still made 1 of the teams of each. The lakers were the worst defensive team in the nba, so nobody is going to have a good defensive rating, I’m sure. It was a lost season for the lakers, but Kobe still played brilliantly and actually had his highest apg, I believe.
And for Tony Allen over Kobe last year, that’s an easy one. I don’t know how any objective observer can put Allen ahead of Kobe. Kobe played 82 games, Allen 72. Kobe averaged 34 min/game, Allen averaged 21 min/game. Based on that alone, Allen better be playing extremely better than Kobe to get the nod, which was not the case. Kobe does it all on defense and is the team defensive leader. Allen is primarily going up against the 2nd team and not the starters, another thing to consider. Allen is not the defensive leader on the team, and he basically just stays with his man, not worrying about anyone else’s man, which really isn’t how defense works. Allen might be better man-man throughout the season than Kobe, but that’s Allen’s only responsibility. And as we saw from game 2 from Kobe in the hornets series, Kobe can play awesome man-man defense, and on one of the quickest players in the nba, who is 6-7 inches shorter than he is, and Kobe had a bum ankle. But, that’s greatness, which Allen does not have. Maybe Allen deserved 3rd or 4th team all-defense, if the nba issued those teams, but certainly not first and certainly not ahead of kobe.
by express34texas on Oct 22, 2011 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions
its not a perfect stat
but it gives you some semblance of the quality of defense, and the fact is Kobe’s defense that season was nothing spectacular.
Also your logic for not giving Tony Allen 1st team defense is flawed. The guy who plays great defense in his limited amount of minutes should absolutely deserve the honor over someone who plays starter minutes but drifts around the floor aimlessly for three and half quarters. It would be like giving Monta Ellis DPOY because he played in more games and played more minutes than Dwight Howard. Quality should always comes first.
Saying that lebron or howard weren’t the top 2 players last year is not silly, that’s just your view. Rose did win MVP. Lebron just quit on his team. How can a player who quit be the best player in the nba? On talent alone, lebron is the best individual player in the nba, but there’s a lot more to it than just talent. Incorporated into the team sport of basketball, lebron isn’t necessarily the best player in the nba. I don’t think he truly understands how to play basketball correctly. He has to have the ball in his hands to be effective at all, and watching him and wade mis utilize bosh last year was atrocious to see. Sure, bosh deserves some blame, and the media’s love for wade/lebron cause them to bash bosh even more, but wade/lebron don’t know how to maximize bosh’s skills, very unlike how Kobe is able to mesh with Gasol so well. lebron is not good playing without the ball. He is very skilled, but nowhere near as skilled as Kobe, though that doesn’t necessarily mean Kobe’s better. But, as we all know, there’s more to the nba than just the reg. season, we have something called teh playoffs, and Kobe outplayed lebron in the 09/10 playoffs, meaning Kobe was the man those years.
You could make a case lebron was a little better than kobe during the 09/10 reg. season, that’s fine, but the playoffs are obviously more important than the reg. season, and that’s where the real superstars step up and shine. Lebron has shown signs of stepping up, but not consistently, and has just flat out quit in multiple playoffs, something we’ve never seen from another supposed superstar. Lebron was better than kobe in last year’s playoffs, but that’s primarily because Kobe was legitimately hurt. I don’t think Kobe’s age is necessarily catching up to him yet, but we’ll see. Kobe still made the all-nba and all-defensive 1st teams last year, and rightfully so, and took home the AS game MVP, it’s not like he’s on his last legs. Howard’s great, but not quite there yet. And Dirk was the best playoff performer last year, that’s why it’s the year of the Dirk.
by express34texas on Oct 20, 2011 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Why is Rose even in this conversation?
He won MVP because there was voter fatigue with LeBron and had a better story than Howard, who had way more overall impact on the court since he’s the best defensive player in the league whereas Rose is average at best at that end. He’s a scoring point with average point guard skills, an unreliable outside shot, and a still burgeoning game. He definitely catapulted himself past Williams in the PG conversation, but that puts him range of the top five overall, not anywhere near the top.
As for LeBron, you’re frankly serving up platitudes and excuses. Sure, castigate him for failing in the playoffs, being a crappy leader, a media whore, and whatnot, but there’s no freaking way you can say that Kobe was a more effective player last season than him, and it has everything to do with Kobe getting older and LeBron being in the prime of his career. He was definitely terrible in the Finals, but hey, he was damn good in those previous three rounds, won a few games basically by himself, and I can’t see any real way you rank Kobe above LeBron as of right now. It isn’t a fair comparison because of the age difference, but that’s the reality of the situation. As of two or three years ago? Definitely more points in Kobe’s favor. Now? With his declining athleticism and balky knees? Can’t make the comparison. Again, Kobe is still really, really damn good. No one is denying that. But saying he’s still the best is just ignoring where he is in his career right now.
Finally, name a player better than LeBron or Howard right now not named Wade, whose placement anywhere in the top four is arguable one way or another. Dirk obviously brought home the hardware, but I’d also credit Rick Carlisle for some brilliant coaching, Tyson Chandler for being absolutely dominant defensively, and the rest of a very deep Mavs team that all stepped up to the occasion. This isn’t to diminish what Dirk accomplished — I think he deserves at least the number four spot and possibly number three — but on an individual player basis, he’s not better than LeBron or Howard.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Dude, you’re not listening. I never said Kobe was better than Lebron last season, reg. season or playoffs. And I said you could make a case for lebron over Kobe during 09 and 10 reg. seasons, though it was super close, and I would take Kobe. But, I said I would take Kobe over Lebron during 09 and 10 playoffs over Lebron for sure, so combining 09 and 10 reg. season/playoffs, I would think it would be obvious Kobe was the better player, but I guess not. I would still take Kobe, if healthy, which he clearly wasn’t in 11 playoffs over anyone. We’ll see if that happens. If Kobe isn’t healthy, I don’t know who I would take. Initially, probably howard or lebron, but you never know how the playoffs will pan out, which in 11, I would take Dirk over anyone else. He was better than anyone else overall.
I would disagree with Rose. He was a top 5 player last year, and the best player on the best team. Lebron might be more talented, but Rose understands how to play better team ball. For the reg. season, Rose was slightly better. For reg. season and playoffs combined, lebron was better. Kobe’s still a top 5 player for sure. Kobe could’ve scored 30ppg last season, but he’s smart and saved himself for the playoffs, which unfortunately didn’t pan out. Like I said, I’ll still take a healthy Kobe over anyone, hopefully he stays healthy. Lebron’s a choker, and unreliable.
by express34texas on Oct 20, 2011 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I could care less about Kobe's #NBARank.
I have more of a problem with ESPN shoving PER, Total QBR and now NBA Rank down our throats. By the way, does this mean that PER is dead? It took a mighty big hit last season with the Heat failing.
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"open your eyes and brain then see in next five years from now will see what happen okay." - Nam Pham
Ah, you bring up a great pt. about PER. I think lebron/wade/bosh were each in the top 5 in 2010, and then stat gurus at espn claimed that the heat would then win 90 games during the 2011 reg. season. Oops, I guess that didn’t happen. Lebron’s supposedly super team actually was worse than his previous 2 cavs’ teams, how ironic is that?
PER has rarely, if ever, been a reliable stat to be used to predict anything, but somehow so many people completely rely on it and other advanced stats solely. When things don’t go as these stat gurus want or their predictions don’t come true, then they place the blame on other things, like spoelstra or bosh or the supporting cast’s fault. Funny stuff. All PER is, is combined raw stats, interesting to look at, but nothing more than that, and even these raw stats aren’t necessarily recorded accurately. And abbott had an article last year about why he was confused some player was recorded as getting a steal and not his teammate, but he was wrong. He doesn’t even understand what a steal is.
by express34texas on Oct 19, 2011 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions
And by that projection...
…Kobe is ahead of Paul, Durant, and Nowitzki. BUT, he isn’t better than Kevin Love.
"I was just letting the shots fly. You know, I don't leave any bullets in the chamber."
"Everything negative- pressure, challenges- is all an opportunity for me to rise."
-Kobe Bryant
Chris Mortensen: "You know it's the 'Show-Me' State right Sam?"
"Pshh, 'Show Me.' (smirking) Yeah, I've heard that."
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