Kobe Bryant vs Zone Defense
2008 NBA FINALS: Kobe Bryant vs. Boston Celtics Zone Defense (via LakersPlayoffs)
This is a really intresting video I found on youtube the other day. I'm sure many Laker fans have been told that Kobe Bryant has never played threw hard defenses but this video posted here proves wrong. I cant believe how they guarded Kobe Bryant in the 2008 NBA finals. This video is intresting and makes you wonder alot that the 2008 Celtics had similar rules like the "Jordan Rules" of the 90's when guarding Kobe Bryant. Well enjoy and comment...
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the music and voice makes it sound like kobe died after trying to attack the zone or something
and this is a tribute to his memory
but good video nonetheless lol
LOL
Yeah I know they make it seem like Kobe died. But its a great video and details how Kobe was guarded by multiple defenders in the finals especially by bigger defenders like James Posey and Paul Pierce. Posey and Pierce dont seem big at all but when compared to Kobe both defenders each have 2+ inches in height advantage and at least 20+ pounds over Kobe, now that doesnt seem like much but that sure as hell comes into effect when posting up on Pierce and Posey, thats length and size over Kobe folks.
" I wanna be the best, I wanna be the best simple and plain and to be the best you have to win and thats what drives me" -Kobe Bryant
by 15xtimeNBAchamps on Jul 28, 2010 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions
lol
I remember this video. It hit right after game 6 :( kinda fit the mood then.
by wickedskillz on Aug 4, 2010 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Very interesting video man
thanks for posting. I didn’t get to watch all of those games because of work that year, and this was a pretty good situational analysis. Good post.
Unfortunately the legend of MJ has long surpassed the reality of MJ. -Joshua S.
Great vid man
I’m just glad we put that stuff behind us. Speaking of putting the past behind us, dud, change your screenname. We have 16 now lol
Today's sports media excels at over-reaction to a single event and specializes in hyperboles. But hey, it's that or my biochem textbook...
Not a very good example because Kobe had some pretty bad games that series.
ie 5-29. I’m not a Kobe hater and he’s probably the best player in the NBA but this video is ridiculous. First of all, if you compare the rules he’s played with to the rules in Jordan’s era there’s no contest; the 90’s were much for physical.
Also… every, and I mean EVERY star has had to deal with hard fouls and some no calls. Jordan did, LeBron does, ‘Melo does, Wade does, and Kobe does to. I’ve seen one video about the Bad Boy Pistons on Jordan where Jordan was jumping and as he released the ball Rodman took a hand to his side and blatantly threw him to the ground. It would have been a flagrant 1, maybe even 2 in today’s NBA and it was a no-call. And saying that Jordan played “isolation” basketball because there was a lot of man to man is absurd. Good spacing allowed opposing defenses to collapse on Jordan and maul him. There was no handchecking back then. They could use their hands to slow him down and it was legal; they didn’t have to sneak and get away with anything. The lack of a defensive 3 in the key allowed them to play REAL zones, meaning if he got to the paint there was someone there by default. Not to mention the fact that 3 others would collapse and get away with a lot of contact.
Kobe is great but saying he faces tougher defenses than Jordan faced is ridiculous.
"Before I write I let my mind go blind and let the Lord do His thing. " -Tupac Shakur
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it looks like work." -Thomas Edison
I agree with the 90’s being a harder defensive era maybe the hardest defensive era of all time but what I wanted to point out is that many people say Kobe Bryant never played through hard defenses. Kobe well in fact has played through hard defenses as a matter of fact the 2008 Boston Celtics are one of the top defensive teams of this era. This video also points out the hand checking, illegal screens and “physical defense” Kobe played against. Many others don’t even point out how Kobe was guarded by fowards bigger than him and forget Kobe is a 205 pound guard. James Posey, Paul Pierce, Rashard Lewis, Kevin Durant ect all players who most recently guarded Kobe in the post season in the past 3 years.
" I wanna be the best, I wanna be the best simple and plain and to be the best you have to win and thats what drives me" -Kobe Bryant
by 15xtimeNBAchamps on Jul 28, 2010 8:34 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Kobe has definitely played tough defenses. There's no debating that.
But the guy in the video is making idiotic statements about Jordan’s era when he clearly hasn’t studied up on what Jordan played against. Saying that Jordan’s offense was mostly from “isolations and post ups on smaller players” is just ignorance of history. I’m not trying to attack the guy but statements like that are ludicrous. Jordam played some of the toughest defenses in the history of the NBA. Actually, you could make the argument that the Bad Boy Pistons were the best defensive team in the history of the NBA and Jordan found ways to beat them.
But I do agree that Kobe plays tough defenses. He is always guarded by bigger players like Posey, Artest (when he played for the Rockets,) Pierce, KD, etc.
"Before I write I let my mind go blind and let the Lord do His thing. " -Tupac Shakur
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it looks like work." -Thomas Edison
Check this out.
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2010/6/21/1525036/kobe-bryants-game-7-in-perspective
Josh makes some interesting counterpoints.
Kobe Bryant's no Michael Jordan. Kobe Bryant is Kobe Bryant.
"Lebron joins teams with his friends; Kobe’s enemies join teams with him." - Gil Meriken
by Saurav A. Das on Jul 29, 2010 2:22 AM PDT up reply actions
This is just incorrect
As linked by Saurav, above, Jordan never played against anything resembling an elite defense in the Finals. And even then, he often performed every bit as “poorly” as Kobe has against the Celtics (especially in the latter three-peat), and also had extremely poor shooting games, much like Kobe’s 5-21 in 2008, or 6-24 this year.
Also, as to your comment about every player having to face physical defenses… that kinda misses the point. This isn’t about physical play; it’s about kind of defense. It’s about the fact that teams can play a form of team defense against an elite player that (a) was NOT possible before, because it was not allowed, and (b) allows them to recover to other players (after the pass) much more quickly than they could have before, again because now they’re playing in zones now.
The hand-check rule is nice, cute thing to reference. The problem? Jordan got foul calls like no other. Even LeBron and Wade don’t get the kind of superstar treatment Jordan got… and that’s saying something. On a consistent basis, he got far, far more foul calls than Kobe has gotten at any point in these last three years. Do you think Jordan’s Bulls would have taken only 2 free throws to the Celtics 19 at halftime of a game? Yeah, right. So while you can cite the physicality of the perimeter game overall, backed by the lack of a hand-check rule in Jordan’s era, the point applies only to a limited degree to Jordan — because overall, the net effect is that he got far more favorable treatment from the rules and refs than anyone else, and certainly more than Kobe gets these days.
The other problem with that is the fact that in Jordan’s last three championship series, he shot consistently poorly — low .400s. And that second three-peat, if I have my facts straight (I’m honestly fuzzy, and don’t have the energy to look this up, so I could be wrong), was actually after the hand-check rule was enacted. If the hand-check rule is the most significant factor in defending great wing players, why is it that Jordan performed better when hand-checking was allowed than he did when it wasn’t?
The absence of a 3-second rule is relevant — but it does not come close to equating to the current zone defense rules that are allowed, particularly with regards to perimeter players. First — and this is a key point — teams were never allowed to double Jordan before the catch. This meant that Jordan, with the ball in his hands, could look to make his move and deal with the double team as it arrived, rather than finding himself already double-teamed and having to find a way out of it. It’s a simple case of proactive vs. reactive — a proactive approach to dealing with a problem is always easier than a reactive approach. Jordan had that luxury; Kobe did not.
Second, the lack of a defensive 3-second rule is rendered moot by the fact that the vast majority of the time, against Boston’s zone defense, Kobe doesn’t get close enough to the rim for that to have mattered — and Jordan wouldn’t have, either. The double team comes further out, forcing Kobe to take a contested mid to long two, rather than a contested layup or floater — which would have been the result of the big man camping out in the lane coming to challenge Jordan. Against Boston’s defense, Jordan wouldn’t have even gotten into the paint most of the time — as has been said before, what would Jordan have done when double- and triple-teamed as thoroughly and solidly as Kobe was in 2008… sprouted wings and flown over them? He was good, but not that good. Jordan’s options would have been the same as Kobe’s: plow through and get called for a charge, pull up for the mid- to long-range jumper, or pass. The first option results in a turnover, the second in a low-efficiency shot, and the third depends on your teammates.
The reality is that in the 2008 Finals, Kobe did pass out to his teammates quite a bit. But what people fail to recognize is that only one of his teammates had been past the first round… ever. As a result, in the 2008 Finals, Kobe struggled, but his teammates wilted. They just weren’t prepared for it. They weren’t able to compete at that level, nor were they able to deal with such a high degree of physicality (which is really where the physicality came in — Kobe’s no stranger to it, but his teammates were, at the time). They were jarred by Boston’s suffocating defense, mentally intimidated by the Celtics’ ability to get back to cover them on what, 95 or so games, had always been wide open shots. Against Boston, they were contested, and Kobe’s teammates couldn’t deliver on the pass.
What would Jordan have done in that circumstance? Do you believe he would have continued to pass, and pass, and pass, like the model teammate and supreme playmaker everyone prefers to remember him as? Such a belief would be equally ignorant of history. Remember, when Jordan started winning championships (i.e., when he started defeating the Pistons), it coincided with the formation of a very good team around him — a team that, when he left almost without notice three years later, won 55 games… only two fewer than the 57 they’d won with him the year before.
The Lakers’ lineup, that year, included Sasha Vujacic, whose transformation from great shooter to total dud and absolute liability took place, apparently, right before the Finals. It included Vladimir Radmanovic… as a starter. Lamar Odom did the greatest disappearing act of his career… which is saying something. And Pau Gasol wilted; he didn’t have the strength, physically or mentally, to fight back against Boston’s bigs.
There was no defensive wing specialist, except for Kobe himself. There was no enforcer, except for Kobe himself. He didn’t have one of the greatest rebounders in the history of the game, nor one (or two) of the greatest defenders in the history of the game, suiting up next to him. He wasn’t playing alongside one of the top three-point shooters of all time… and with Sasha’s mind caving in, he didn’t really have any three-point threat at all… except himself.
He also played with great defenders; the Bulls were regularly very good defensive teams, usually top three in the league. The Lakers? Starting Radmanovic? Pre-Artest, pre-Ariza, and back when the “soft” label actually was a pretty apt one for Gasol? Not even close.
Do you think that, surrounded by these players (as they were then — inexperienced and incapable, both physically and mentally, of handling the pressure and intensity of that situation), Jordan would have continued to pass, and pass, and pass… even as his passes yielded extremely little positive result? I doubt it. And what would he have done, then? Only two options. Bull through them and turn it over, or raise up for the long jumpers, just as Kobe did. And just as Kobe did, Jordan would have struggled to score efficiently.
The bottom line is that Jordan never faced a defense like the Celtics. Not even close. Certainly not in the Finals, and when he did in earlier rounds, he usually lost. He often performed comparably to the way Kobe has performed in the 2008 and 2010 series against Boston… but did so against far inferior defenses. Had he played against these Celtics, he would also have struggled — especially playing with Kobe’s 2008 teammates, as they were in 2008. He couldn’t simply go over or through them, and he would not have been able to single-handedly take over offensively against that Boston defense… nor would he have been able to play defense 1-on-5 against Boston.
So let’s put aside the whole Zone vs. Hand Check argument, and come to what this is really about: How would Jordan have fared, even in his prime, against this Celtics defense? Because that’s what we’re really after. And the answer is that there’s no reason to think he would have fared better, and plenty of evidence to support the likelihood that he would have struggled just as much.
Oh, and lost.
They say if you can't beat them, join them. By joining them, LeBron just admitted he can't beat them.
by Josh Tucker on Jul 29, 2010 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions 10 recs
and we got another smart analysis from josh tucker
trademark “that-all-makes-sense-why-did-I-not-think-of-that?” concrete argument moment.
kobe bryant=batman
Sweet.
It only took one cup of coffee this time to read. Hehe =]
Sweet 16
by bluexfalcon on Jul 29, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Besides when you watched them and thought, “Oh, they’re really good.” The team would have probably lost even with Jordan on it in ‘08 but that’s beside the point; they also lost with Kobe. Moving on, who said anything about zone versus handcheck? Jordan dealt with zone and handcheck, as clearly shown in the videos I posted below. You’re underrating the level of dribble penetration shown by Jordan. He did it while being mauled.
He got some calls but that’s beside the point; so does Kobe, so does LeBron, so does Wade, so does every star. Please don’t tell me Kobe doesn’t because that would be false and you know it. It was the very nature of the rulebook that made it tough for Jordan. You’re just ignoring facts when you say that Jordan was never doubled off the ball. As you can see in those videos, due to fantastic spacing teams could use “sandwich” double teams off the ball and not miss a beat on defense.
Jordan most definitely would have gotten to the paint on the Celtics on a decent basis. He could deal with those handchecks. Those were minor. In his era he would be borderline held back from the basket by multiple defenders. That was something that would regularly happen. And once he got to the basket, the whole defense would collapse. They could actually play ball-side defense off the ball because they could be in the paint. They could stay at the perfect spot and shift over when they saw him drive without being concerned over a defensive 3 second violation. You’re supposed to play defense on the ball-side of the basket to help. Defenders today can’t do that unless they want to shift over to the other side of the paint and allow a skip pass to the other side. They can’t do this. This causes Kobe to get a few easy one on one situations every game. Jordan was used to being mobbed if he got the ball.
So I’ve established that Jordan could get to the rack and there would be less help defense there to stop him. That leaves one question; could he finish at the hoop against Perk and Garnett? This is the easiest answer of the day; abssolutely. This is asking if the guy who dunked all over players like Ewing and a Prime Shaq, also the player whose amazing lay-ups and moves could make Dennis Rodman and Bill Laimbeer look silly, could finish against Perkins and Garnett. Definitely, especially when you consider the rule changes that have made it hard to play defense without a foul being called at the basket.
This leaves the Celtics with one option once he gets to the rim; hack him. Mike was an 84% foul shooter. He could get fouled, go to the line and knock down most of his free throws. He would have scored just as well as Kobe did in that series, probably better. You’re completely overlooking the fact that the rules were different back then and zone defenses were actual zone defenses. Teams played match-up zones that could get far more difficult to beat than the Celtics zone.
"Before I write I let my mind go blind and let the Lord do His thing. " -Tupac Shakur
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it looks like work." -Thomas Edison
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this.
My mom stopped me right in the middle of writing it so there was a pretty long delay.
Oh, and I don’t mean to clash with a mod or anything but I feel like this is a constructive argument, not anything bannable.
"Before I write I let my mind go blind and let the Lord do His thing. " -Tupac Shakur
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it looks like work." -Thomas Edison
You're overrating the dribble penetration
most of his best penetration was done without the ball, not with it especially in those videos you showed. He often dribbles into double teams and sometimes even triple teams in the videos you posted only to kick them out and if he was doubled on the perimeter it was rare because he wasn’t really a threat from 3-pt range, except for when they moved it closer. Occasionally he would break through the zone, but it wasn’t often in the videos you had. In fact, the video above and the videos you posted below of how Jordan and Kobe dealt with defense are pretty similar. Eerily similar in fact. This also depends on the Jordan we’re talking about. Old age Jordan from 96-98 or relatively younger Jordan of 91-93. 91-93 Jordan would’ve scored better than Kobe, but old age Jordan probably wouldn’t have dealt with that much doubling as well. He was still great, but his bread and butter was the post game and fadeaway at that point and he couldn’t use his superior athleticism over defenders a lot of the time. It was also after the rule changes about defenders on the perimeter and somehow people act as if that rule was only put in place in 2000. Its been in place since 1994, Drexer played in it and he didn’t drop 45 even with that extra space. Jordan played in it and wasn’t as efficient as he was when he could jump over everyone. So honestly, guys can we stop this. Kobe gets mobbed when he has the ball and Jordan did too. This eras defense is wholly better than previous years, but nostalgia is a hell of a bitch to overcome for people who are watching it from memory. This is honestly a Kobe vs. Jordan debate and no matter who you think is better, they are easily 1 and 2 for best SGs in the league who overcame defensive gameplans to wholly perform great.
Unfortunately the legend of MJ has long surpassed the reality of MJ. -Joshua S.
Josh: The hand-check rule is nice, cute thing to reference. The problem? Jordan got foul calls like no other.
For those that watched the era, this really is the case. Jordan would turn the hand on the hip into an and-one mid-range jumper again and again. He was a very physically strong player who could easily absorb contact, in an era where he had the refs waiting to blow the whistle. Pretty soon it became a regular habit. When Jordan went from “best player in the league” to superstar, to best player ever, this was accompanied with a red carpet ride to the freethrow line.
Kobe and the refs is weird. Sometimes he gets the touch foul, but he does so much contorting, and the league has changed so much, there are times that he is down right mugged with nothing called. Its very hard to tell if going into a game he is going to get the superstar treatment or not. Its rather inconsistent. With Jordan you never doubted. You put a hand on him and the whistle goes.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 3, 2010 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
KV totally agreed with you there!
I don't do it for your thanks, I do it because I had a calling, but I do love the support you give me and my Soldiers.
by Sarge Clemins on Aug 4, 2010 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I know!
It’s bizarre.
So… since I’m new to this alternate reality, care to clue me in on any other differences between this universe and the one I came from?
They say if you can't beat them, join them. By joining them, LeBron just admitted he can't beat them.
Jordan
I went back and watched several of the Bulls vs. Jazz games from 96-97 & 97-98 last weekend. I was surprised, Jordan had some pretty mediocre shooting games. He shot something like .43 for the series in 98 if I am not mistake. People (including myself) remember Jordan as superhuman, I didn’t remember it that way. He was damn good, but he had struggles in the finals, like Kobe has (and like every other star player). What really stood out to me was the quality of the entire team, particularly Pippen and Kukoc. They held leads and cut deficits with Jordan on the bench. They were the ultimate professionals. It’s easy to forget how good Pippen actually was- he was a monster on defense. He was as dominant as Jordan, in his own way. Most of the games are up on YouTube, check em out. It will give you some perspective
His worst series
was against Seattle where he was shootin 41% from the field.
Unfortunately the legend of MJ has long surpassed the reality of MJ. -Joshua S.
2008 Boston Celtics were better than any defensive team Jordan ever faced.
They were one of the greatest defensive teams of all time.
Josh did an article on it, a while back.
Kobe Bryant's no Michael Jordan. Kobe Bryant is Kobe Bryant.
"Lebron joins teams with his friends; Kobe’s enemies join teams with him." - Gil Meriken
by Saurav A. Das on Jul 29, 2010 2:20 AM PDT up reply actions
*ever faced in the Finals.
Of course, the Pistons were in the ECF.
Kobe Bryant's no Michael Jordan. Kobe Bryant is Kobe Bryant.
"Lebron joins teams with his friends; Kobe’s enemies join teams with him." - Gil Meriken
by Saurav A. Das on Jul 29, 2010 2:27 AM PDT up reply actions
One interesting thing to note
Is that with the removal of the hand-check as a means of keeping a defender from penetrating, (And subsequently the implementation of the semi-circle under the hoop where you can’t take a charge) players and referees alike have been more eager to see (and call) charges as a legitimate form of defense. The Bad Boys and similar defensive aces in that era (Gary Payton, Byron Russel) would never have taken some of the charges that the Celtics did against the Lakers both this season and in 2008 both because it was not always necessary (hand check), and because it was seen as a pussy tactic. With defenders more willing to flop to get the whistle blown (and refs being forced to call something when the defender hits the deck), it’s hard to imagine Jordan being able to penetrate at will without getting some preferential treatment from the refs. Even Kobe, who has an uncanny ability to maneuver himself in mid-air to avoid taking charges, had a bunch of offensive fouls called on him in the last few Finals. That had to play a part in his hesitation at times to get all the way to the hoop.
by JustRuntheOffense on Jul 30, 2010 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Umm
maybe you didn’t head what he said. He said zone is the most sophisticated defensive scheme a team can play which was something Jordan never faced IN THE FINALS. He said it every time he mentioned the defense. Jordan has never played against a defense like that in the finals, and the one time he faced something remotely close to it as pointed out by others on this blog, Jordan shot 41% from the field.
The Pistons are often the exception when we think of what players went through. They went brutally out to hurt players and Chuck Daly taught them to. They were a great offensive team, but that doesn’t mean they played great defense. Thats bad defense if you have to resort to pushing a player down to stop him from scoring. In fact its not even defense at that point. I often have to point this out, but how often do you see the best defenders in the NBA today have to resort to pushing someone down or wrapping them up to stop them from making a jump shot. Thats physicality, not defense. Defense can be physical, but to say that it was great defense because they fouled the shit out of someone is just dumb because the reason it was stopped was because freaking idiots like Bill Lambeer, or however you spell his name, clotheslined people and junk. I’m so glad I don’t have to watch that every night from teams. Their “defense” is not how it should be played. Minor hand-checking and hard fouls while contesting a basket are one thing, but to say that pushing, clotheslining, holding, and elbowing people while in the air is good defense is just false.
Unfortunately the legend of MJ has long surpassed the reality of MJ. -Joshua S.
by Marty Mart on Jul 28, 2010 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
"A good man defense resembles a zone and a good zone resembles man defense."
Some of the teams Jordan played were so good with spacing that it was like they were playing a zone. Jordan was always trapped, triple teamed and quadruple team. Also, less rules on the perimeter off the ball made it hard for him to get to the ball. EVERY time he wanted the ball to do some work on the perimeter, he had to make a move just to get the ball. A move that he made through grabbing, “sandwich” double teams, players lowering shoulders, etc.
Hereis a great video about Jordan vs. some of the defenses he faced. Yeah, Kobe faces the Celtics in the Finals sometimes. Jordan faced defenses with a similar mentality to the Celtics on a regular basis.
"Before I write I let my mind go blind and let the Lord do His thing. " -Tupac Shakur
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it looks like work." -Thomas Edison
if only i wasnt at work i could show you COUNTLESS vids on the work Kobe has to do to get the ball as well.
These 2 were (and are in Kobe’s case) the best…..EVER. I still think Jordan was better but then agian i remember the LEGACY not the PLAYER. Why cant we all just sit witness to 81 and every other thing he has done.
One thing i love bout Kobe…..when his shot was WAY OFF in the biggest game of his career? He became a blue-collered worker and worked and hustled for EVERY possesion and rebound like he was fighting for life and death. ADMIRED …..thats the word i gots for Kobes!
I don't do it for your thanks, I do it because I had a calling, but I do love the support you give me and my Soldiers.
by Sarge Clemins on Aug 4, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Here is another great video about Jordan playing against zones and destroying them.
"Before I write I let my mind go blind and let the Lord do His thing. " -Tupac Shakur
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it looks like work." -Thomas Edison
Another one. This one is really good because it actually compares the two eras.
"Before I write I let my mind go blind and let the Lord do His thing. " -Tupac Shakur
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it looks like work." -Thomas Edison
good vids, defense then is tough...
…but the defense now is definitely better. Better defenders. Better team defensive plays.
kobe bryant=batman
Ah. Part of that “bad defense” was Joe Dumars who was the best 2 guard defender in the league, hands down.
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 3, 2010 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Who didn't play for the Bulls, yes
Joe Dumars was, but he was also smaller, less athletic, and less muscular than Jordan giving Jordan the advantage every time down the floor no matter how well Dumars played. Besides, I was more referring to their tactics once a player made it to the rim. Players today are just as effective at curving the fg% rate near the basket without having to resort to that sort of behavior, except against Lebron who is the Jordan equivalent of the modern era. Bigger, stronger, and faster than anyone else at his position.
Unfortunately the legend of MJ has long surpassed the reality of MJ. -Joshua S.
All I know is against Dumars Jordan lifetime shot 8% less from 3, and 4% less over all. He had his games against Dumars, especially in the post, but Dumars went to the HoF principally, one might argue, for his play against Jordan.
It remains one of the enduring images of NBA lore—Joe Dumars guarding a determined young Michael Jordan in the 1990 Eastern Conference playoffs.
Dumars of the "Bad Boy" Detroit Pistons, the league’s two-time defending champs, looked like a gaucho corralling the ultimate toro, his feet moving furiously (maybe the best defensive slide in the history of the game), one forearm firmly barred into Jordan to keep contact, the other bent arm thrust into the air, giving Dumars his only hope of keeping his balance while trying to ride the Jordan whirlwind.
Jerry West watched the performance and remarked privately that most people considered Isiah Thomas the Pistons’ superstar, but West pointed out that it was Dumars who was the supreme talent.
Why?
Well, West said, both Thomas and Dumars could push the envelope offensively, "but Joe’s defense sets him apart."
"...where they don't play with a shot clock." - C. Sager
by kv on Aug 5, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not saying he wasn't great
I was just saying that I thought overall, Scottie was a better 2-guard defender, but then I forgot that Scottie didn’t really emerge for another couple years since he was drafted in ’88, I believe. Either way, Dumars played Jordan the best on defense and was one of the only players that could actually keep up with him. As I said though, his physical stature and ability when compared to Jordan gave Jordan the advantage. Dumars happened to be good enough defensively to overcome those disadvantages, but they still are disadvantages.
Unfortunately the legend of MJ has long surpassed the reality of MJ. -Joshua S.
For every Joe Dumars
There was some schlub guarding Jordan who wouldn’t even crack the starting lineup of an NBA team today.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
Two things
1. They played in different eras mostly so comparing them is difficult at best, and in my opinion a little pointless.
2. Zone was straight up illegal in Jordan’s era so by default you did not see as much zone. Thats not to diminish Jordan’s greatness. But it is fair to say that Kobe has faced defenses that were at least as good as what Jordan faced. The spurs (at the height of their powers), the Pistons, and the Celtics twice. The fact is that Kobe is a great player, and is at worst top 10 all time at this point.
I think the point of the video was to show that he has faced tough D and that while Jordan played in a tougher era, the kind of D he played against in the finals was not great.
by Vincent Allen on Aug 5, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, that was kinda the point
It was more this: After the 2008 Finals, there was a lot of “Jordan would never have” going on. The point of this video was to show that there is not much Jordan could have done. The question that presents itself when watching this video is, “What could Jordan have done differently… sprouted wings and flown over the defenders?” At that point, the obvious answer is that Jordan would have had just as hard a time beating that defense as Kobe did.
That was the point of the video, and it was extremely relevant at the time. It said, “No, you’re wrong — there’s not much else Jordan could have done in that situation.”
All your other points are correct, though I do think that it’s possible (though difficult) to compare players across ages (though it’s clearly subjective, not objective), and also quite useful.
They say if you can't beat them, join them. By joining them, LeBron just admitted he can't beat them.
Josh.....sometimes you make me feel dumb. Kinda like i never went to college and joined the military dumb.
Oh wait! i did…..hehe
I don't do it for your thanks, I do it because I had a calling, but I do love the support you give me and my Soldiers.
by Sarge Clemins on Aug 5, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Uhhh... in a good way, or a bad way?
Like, I make you feel dumb because I say intelligent things? Or, I make you feel dumb because I treat you like you’re dumb?
I sure hope it’s not the latter. Not that I really want to make anyone feel stupid (well, okay… I don’t mind making stupid people feel stupid, especially stupid people who think they’re smart… but not anyone around these parts, of course). But if it’s the latter then we really have a problem.
They say if you can't beat them, join them. By joining them, LeBron just admitted he can't beat them.
naw dude it's the 1st one....i find it hard to type what im thinking.
Im a VERY good speaker and do well in front of crowds though
I don't do it for your thanks, I do it because I had a calling, but I do love the support you give me and my Soldiers.
by Sarge Clemins on Aug 5, 2010 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Man its just insane how they double teamed, triple teamed and on various other occasions quadruple teamed Kobe Bryant. Its freaking crazy the mad defense the Boston Celtics played on Kobe. What pisses me off the most is when they say Kobe never faced the type of defenses Michael Jordan did.
" I wanna be the best, I wanna be the best simple and plain and to be the best you have to win and thats what drives me" -Kobe Bryant
by 15xtimeNBAchamps on Jul 29, 2010 9:18 AM PDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
damn
this video actually pissed me off :P
YOU CAN PUTITONTHEBOARD YES! mercy
Well, the '08 Celtics did have one of the best all-time defenses
From a statistical standpoint, and arguably had one of the most disciplined defenses of all time in terms of how effectively they zoned out parts of the floor with amazingly efficient rotations. As far as Jordan goes though, let’s remember that he played the other great defense of all time in the Knicks of the early 90s, although he mixed in virtuoso performances like his 54 point explosion in ’93 with a few sub-.400 shooting games as well.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
this proves it
we are the doldrums of the offseason
"Lebron has the ball, dribbles down the court, splitting the Lakers defenders with 5 seconds left on the clock with the game on the line in the 2011 NBA Finals Game 7! Lebron pulls up from deep, in Kobe's face and drains the three pointer! HEAT WIN HEAT WIN!!! 89-88!!!!!
...BEEP BEEP BEEP...BEEP BEEP BEEP...
Then Lebron's alarm goes off and he wakes up and goes downstairs to eat a delicious breakfast made by his mom and Delonte West."
GAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH
SEASON START NAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"There are no "Kobe Lovers", just people who are right." - Gil Meriken
right arm sister, right arm
"Lebron has the ball, dribbles down the court, splitting the Lakers defenders with 5 seconds left on the clock with the game on the line in the 2011 NBA Finals Game 7! Lebron pulls up from deep, in Kobe's face and drains the three pointer! HEAT WIN HEAT WIN!!! 89-88!!!!!
...BEEP BEEP BEEP...BEEP BEEP BEEP...
Then Lebron's alarm goes off and he wakes up and goes downstairs to eat a delicious breakfast made by his mom and Delonte West."
with all due respect
to Jordan,who was my favorite player with Magic and Kareem when growing up,I have watched tons of his games and still watching in Youtube
.80’s/90’s teams were really weak aside from say a couple standouts,but most importantly Jordan was referees’ star.He was being rewarded nearly every-time with a call after a touch/maul/hack,in playoffs and regular season.Benefit of the calls usually went his way when compared Kobe.I believe Jordan would have three-peated 08-09-10,given how atrocious officiating was in 08 finals,he would have overridden referees.
Thanks.
Michael Jordon during playoffs
10.4, 7.8 and 10.7 FTA in the second Three peat.
While kobe had 9.2 , 8.6 and 7.9 in the last three playoffs.. So yes MJ does shoot a hell lot of FT in the tough “defense” era…
The funny thing about that picture is Tyron Lue sitting on the Celtics bench
wearing a PURPLE shirt and tie.
"There are no "Kobe Lovers", just people who are right." - Gil Meriken
cant see it here at work :(
I don't do it for your thanks, I do it because I had a calling, but I do love the support you give me and my Soldiers.
by Sarge Clemins on Aug 5, 2010 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Yep
and he will always remember for being stepped over
Unfortunately the legend of MJ has long surpassed the reality of MJ. -Joshua S.
Really
cuz all I remember is his march to irrelevance after leaving the Lakers. lol.
Unfortunately the legend of MJ has long surpassed the reality of MJ. -Joshua S.
haha me too Marty
I don't do it for your thanks, I do it because I had a calling, but I do love the support you give me and my Soldiers.
by Sarge Clemins on Aug 5, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
The Myth of the Era of Defense and Jordan vs Kobe
I always hear people constantly talk about Jordan’s greatness and how he dominated in the “Era of Defense”. But some of that is simply not true… sure Jordan dominated (everyone would have to agree) but it wasn’t the era of great defense. It was jus an era of a different defense.
A couple of the statistics I like to look at are Defensive Rating (DRtg) which is the number of points given up per 100 possessions, Effective FG% (eFG%) which is the FG% adjusted for 3’s, and FTA/FGA which is the number of Free Throws attempted relative to the number of Field Goals attempted.
So lets look at these stats from the Jordan era (1986-1998) and the Kobe era (1999-2010) for the league as a whole.
DRtg: Jordan era 107.5, Kobe era 105.2
Wow…. despite the handchecking rules the teams Jordan faced typically gave up 2.3 more points per 100 possessions than those that Kobe faced. In fact, only once in the 12 year Jordan Era (98) did the league have a DRtg better than 106.5, compared to 9 out of 12 in the Kobe Era. The best defense that Jordan faced was in 1998 and that year the league average was 105.0, in comparison Kobe played 6 straight seasons (99-04) winning 3 titles against defenses that were all below 104.5
eFG%: Jordan era 49.1%, Kobe era 48.4%
Again, despite Jordan supposedly playing in the “Defense” era teams still scored more eficiently on average than in the Kobe era. Only once did the league finish with an eFG% lower than 48.7% during Jordan’s days, yet Kobe played 6 straight seasons where the league was at least a full percent better defensively.
FTA/FGA: Jordan era: 24.6%, Kobe era 23.5%
So not only did Jordan play against easier defenses that gave up more points and allowed more effecient shooting, but he was also the benefit of a friendlier whistle. Even ignoring the Jordan rules, the league still was given more free throws per field goal attempt.
So while Jordan did play in a different era when it comes to defense, there really is no objective data to support that the defense was actually better. In fact, the true era of great defense occured from 1999-2004 and that was when Kobe won 3 titles.
It wasn’t just the league averages either. Jordan went to the finals 6 times and here were the Drtg’s of the teams he faced: 105.0, 104.2, 106.7, 102.1, 104.0, & 105.4 for an average of 104.6. And how about Kobe’s 7 trips: 103.6, 98.9, 99.5, 95.2, 98.9, 101.9, & 103.8 for an average of 100.3. That is a difference of 4.3 points! How big is that? The difference between last years Orlando Magic and the Indiana Pacers were only 3.5 points apart defensively!
Finally, is tough to compare Kobe and Jordan’s early careers as it is now evident that the defenses were much better in Kobe’s time. But over the last few seasons the defenses have worsened and are now similar to what Jordan faced. So I thought it would be interesting to show Jordan and Kobe’s playoff numbers (per 40 min) for Jordan’s second 3-peat (96-98) and Kobe’s recent run to 3 straight finals (08-10). Both players had played almost the same number of career minutes to that point so they have the same “wear and tear” on their bodies.
Jordan: 30.3 pts, 5.7 reb, 4.0 ast, 1.6 stl, 0.6 blk, 45.9% FG, 29.7% 3P, 81.9% FT
Kobe: 29.3 pts, 5.6 reb, 5.4 ast, 1.5 stl, 0.7 blk, 46.5% FG, 34.5% 3P, 84.5% FT
It certainly looks like Kobe is right there with Jordan and has actually been a more efficient scorer and better facilitator.
I thought I would take one final look at just the finals performances for those 3 year periods and here are the results:
Jordan: 31.1 pts, 5.4 reb, 4.2 ast, 1.6 stl, 0.6 blk, 52.8 TS%
Kobe: 28.7 pts, 6.2 reb, 5.2 ast, 2.1 stl, 0.7 blk, 52.0 TS%
Certainly Kobe has been Jordan’s equal during each players second attempt at a 3-peat.
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