If You Don't Want to Get Called For So Many Fouls, Don't Foul So Much

thanks for the breakdown!

i just read the back and forth you had on another site about this subject not 20 minutes ago. people can pick apart a game in so many ways as to why a team lost, but this seems to be the way people use most because of an inherent trust in referees and david stern. all sorts of things happen throughout a season, series, game, and possession that can really make the pendulum swing. all this noise from celtics fans and laker haters is just something to make them feel better about the result. nice work Gil

sorry.

And how does this dude get so much play?

Wilmer Valderrama hits up every upcoming starlet in Hollywood.

Negotiations moving toward Cavs hiring of Brian Shaw as coach stalled Tuesday and Lakers aide left meetings without a contract, source says

Cavs GM Chris Grant emailed team hadn’t “made an offer to any coach,” but sources say that’s pure semantics. Shaw and Byron Scott finalists.

I surmise the disconnect between the fouls per possession and FT per possession, occurs when over 330 fouls are called in a 7 game series, that ultimately had no continuance of rhythm or transparancy.

Some Celtic fans brag saying the Lakers can’t handle Celtic physicality, and how they are going to get roughed up so much and fade away. Now they’re mad and wondering why Lakers are getting FTs while their players are getting in foul trouble? Stupid, if you ask me.

That said, I was on the Celtics’ side during their Round 2 series against the Cavs. I could not believe the calls Cleveland was getting in Game 4. I thought for sure they were gonna lose, but they fought through it and pulled off a win.

The rest of their whining is bullshit.

How did this photo not get picked up by DocFunk?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qy6iz3zyVk

manu ginobli is right there with them.

paul pierce is opting out! i hope boston is ready for another 20 years of lottery picks.

Kinda related.

Paul Pierce is going to opt out.

and in general, with respect to that irate subset of Celtic fans, this

It’s only in the face of a losing result that it is looked upon as a negative.

 I was really, really tempted to join you then, but held back coz I might get banned, lol.

ive been looking for a post like this for a while. Everyone keeps whining about the calls in that 4th quarter.

http://twitter.com/FisolaNYDN/status/17375667159

I also posted at basketball-reference comments:

OK … I keep going down further down the rabbit hole here … and learning more (useless?) info … I took a look a the regular season matchups between the Celtics and the Lakers, and the Feb 18 game in LA (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=300218013&period=3)left me befuddled because the Lakers had 20 fouls, the Celtics had 18 fouls, yet the Lakers took 25 free throws compared to Boston’s 13.

Some of those were offensive calls, and only a few were due to the penalty. I decided to track the shooting fouls versus non-shooting, and came up with Lakers committing 8 shooting fouls and 8 non-shooting (the other four must have been offensive fouls). Boston was 11 shooting, 7 non.

So if the Lakers fouled the Celtics 8 times, so why did Boston only get 13 FTA? What gives? Well the sharper ones of you probably already figured it out: Boston had 5 and-ones! Plus one technical foul shot.

So the fact that Boston had so many continuation fouls where they made the basket created the discrepancy in FTAs.

Now, I wonder if that trend continued in the Finals …

The Lakers were too athletic for the geriatric Celtics and often Boston had no choice but to foul what must have looked like overwhelming yellow Toyota Tundras whizzing past them.

so it really is that obvious…dang i guess the chowdas were all in their beds for the 4th quarter in la and just looked at the stats afterwards……anyone watching the game saw what was happening

I hope this get picked up and linked.

I had argued that the Celtics and Jazz were teams who have a tendency to commit fouls on most possessions in a basketball game, and depending on how the game was being officiated that night would affect their success. It’s not the only indicator of whether a team like Boston or Utah would win, but it does add into the litany of reasons why a team won or lost a game.

Boston and Utah are both physical teams. They enjoy banging bodies and putting the onus on the official to make the call. If the calls are not being made, the pressure on the opponent just doubled, because now not only do they have to face extremely physical defense, but they also must battle their own frustrations with the officials, which can lead to blown defensive assignments or poor shot selection judgments.

Now, I don’t believe the officials did a 180 in Game 7 and started to call every bit of contact a foul in the 4th quarter. Maybe the did a 125 degree turn, I’ll admit, because some of the lighter fouls they wouldn’t have called earlier. Just try and remember how much Pau Gasol was getting pounded every time he went up in the post or to get an OReb. It was borderline murder in the paint for 3 quarters. But, that being said, anyone who watched that game could see the Celtics were tired, which led to defensive breakdowns and players commiting fouls, either to prevent an easy score, or out of simply being out of position. Rasheed complained about every call against him but 1, and I’m willing to admit that 1 of the ones he DID argue was a bad call, but how many did he have in the 4th? His lack of commitment to Boston the entire season cost them in Game 7 just as much as their propensity to play physical, hacking D, or just as much as Ray Allen take a vacation to Pluto, or Perk’s injury.

Short story, and basically what Neil said in the first place (after all that work!): the shooting foul discrepancy was unusual, but the total foul discrepancy was not.

It is what it is.

But one of the prior series gives the best example of what I am trying to get at:

In the BOS-CLE series, over 6 games the total foul count was BOS 163, CLE 136 (please do verify, I had to add them up from the box scores) and the FTA count was BOS 175, CLE 210.

That is a 20% foul discrepancy AND a 20% FT discrepancy against Boston, yet nobody was talking about the officiating (well, I’m sure someone was, but it wasn’t as big a deal), because Boston won that series. All the talk was focused on Lebron’s performance.

It seems that only in the face of losing that concerns about the fouls, and in turn, the officiating, are blown totally out of proportion, by member’s of the losing teams’ fan base.

Just remember that the next time the Lakers lose and you want to blame the refs. Yes, I do expect you to be a little bit rational, even as a fan. Not a lot, just a little.

Much ado has been made by a significant subsection of irate Celtics fans about the foul discrepancy in the 2010 Finals versus the Lakers! WHAT? The Celtics fans better go back and check the 2008 series ,it was just as bad if not worse on the Lakers!

The team that plays with more intensity and determination gets the benefit of the calls by the refs. I’m surprised the C’s aren’t called for more fouls. In this Finals, they made the correct calls – the calls that were let go in 08, like moving screens.

I thought their was a conspiracy against the Lakers all year because they seemed to get called for more fouls than the other team often. But if you watch enough, you’ll notice that the team that plays with more intensity is rewarded by the refs with effort calls or non-calls.

Great series. C’s got a taste of their own medicine. I wonder if KG will be back to barking next year. Or is his bite too weak now?

but the more I think about it, the more difficult I find them to believe. Perhaps some small percentage of bias (such as in the case of that guy who admitted to gambling) and definitely human error (to a larger degree) exists in these games but I think it’s minimal in terms of the impact. You can’t fix putting a ball into a ring not much larger. To say that these games are fixed is a discredit to the hard work that the players put in, and to discredit the effort they give on the floor, and the clutch shots they make in pressure situations. You can’t fix a Derrick Fisher three. Impossible. I can see bias existing in sports, but I’m just not so sure how easily it can be pulled off in some sports, especially basketball.

Mostly, those Boston fans who are angry over foul discrepancy are just blinded by their own anger over losing the Finals to the Lakers. According to studies, 90% of the ugliness of our anger is due to our own exaggeration. Think back to some of your own feelings for a moment.