Thoughts on categorising the All-Time Greats.

by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 11:28 AM PDT

Well, it's the dead of the night, I'm very bored waiting for today's coverage (seriously, I'm starting to get addicted to SSR. Somebody help?), and for some reason thoughts of how to rank all-time greats are racing through my mind, primarily due to taking a look at this very interesting article on the topic, as well as looking at linkbacks and noticing some forums that were discussing Tucker's work, with obviously very varied results.

Personally, I think it is impossible to develop a definite ranking of these players, because different people have different opinions and preferences, and everyone is guilty of bias. It's too subjective to ever work. However, it is in human nature to try and rank, to compare, to categorise, and to that I propose the idea of simply using a tier system, with Tier 1 being the highest, and then proceeding in descending order. None of these tiers have truly set rankings within the tier, so all the players in the Tier are considered more-or-less comparable in skill, success, and impact upon the game.

There's no set size for each Tier, nor is there is definable value, as in 'Tier x players would be the greatest in the League at any era you place them in' while 'Tier y players would be career All-Stars in any era' etc. Nor is there set requirements for each tier in terms of achievements or statistics. I'll try to be even across the eras, but obviously my knowledge of players from earlier eras is not as thorough as that of modern-day players, so I'll inevitably miss a few past stars.

Some of the Top Tiers, after the Jump:

TIER 1
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russel

TIER 2
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Bob Cousy
John Havlicek
George Mikan
Isiah Thomas

TIER 3
Scottie Pippen
Elgin Baylor (only player without a Championship ring in the Top Three tiers, but his skill was too high to place him any lower)
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Bob Petit
David Robinson
Willis Reed
Sam Jones
Robert Parish
Clyde Drexler
Gary Payton
Kevin Garnett
Kevin McHale
Julius Erving

TIER 4
John Stockton*
Moses Malone
Karl Malone*
Charles Barkley*
Pete Maravich
Clyde Lovellette
Walt Frazier
Bob McAdoo
Tom Heinsohn
LeBron James*
Patrick Ewing*
Nate Thurmond
Dwyane Wade
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Ben Wallace
Alonzo Mourning
Dwight Howard
Dikeme Mutumbo
Pau Gasol
Ray Allen
Reggie Miller
Paul Pierce
Allen Iverson*

Note: Players with an asterisk (*) next to their name deserve to be higher, but are stopped by the lack of a Championship ring)

TIER 5
Wes Unseld
K.C. Jones
Bill Walton
Gail Goodrich
Vince Carter
David Thompson
Alex English
James Worthy
Adrian Dantley
Nate Archibald
George Gervin
Carmelo Anthony
Kevin Durant
Chris Paul
Chris Bosh
Deron Williams
Amar'e Stoudemire
Dominique Wilkins
Chris Webber
Shawn Kemp

Some notes:

Generally, to make the Top 3 Tiers, you have to have at least one Championship Ring.
While players can advance ranks, players may never drop ranks .
Rankings are NOT based whatsoever on potential for active players, hence why many youngsters are yet to make the list.
For current players, it's assumed that their current career stats will continue through for the rest of their career (an imperfect method, I know), no additional NBA Championships, MVPS or DPoYs will be won, and All-Star and All-NBA appearances will continue at current rate.
Using that method, many current players actually stack up very favourably to players from previous eras - interesting considering how many claim that modern basketball is lower-quality compared to that of the '80s and '90s, particularly those who use that as defense for Kobe being 'nowhere near' Michael.
Team success and Playoff Appearances/Performance play a significant part in rankings.
ABA contributions do not hold as much weight as NBA contributions.

Assessing Kobe

Kobe Bryant, in my opinion, is currently in the Second Tier, having been propelled there with his last Championship defining him as the undeniable Greatest Player of His Generation (if you want to know how I think Kobe advanced chronologically: Threepeat took him up from unranked to Tier 4, stuff like 81 and 35.4 took him to the border of Tier 4 and Tier 3, '09 took him to the border of Tier 2, and '10 has him near the top of Tier 2). By the end of his career, if we assume production similar to his career average (which his below his average in recent years, due to being influenced by his rookie and sophomore years) for 5 more years, plus about 19/4/4 for another 3-4 years after that, and 1 more ring, he'll be right at the top of Tier 2, ahead of Bird. Magic and Wilt but still not on the level of Russel, Kareem and Jordan. If, however, he wins 2 more championships, 1-2 more Finals MVPs, and breaks the 35k point-plateau, his sheer body of work means that he has to be put in the first Tier and thus expand it from a Triumvirate to a foursome. Think about it, he'll have scored more than anyone with more championships than him, and he'll have more rings than anyone with better stats than him. But he'll never be the GOAT, simply because his averages aren't as high or efficient, and his first three championships did come as an option 1A to Shaq's 1.

Importantly, I'm not saying that Kobe will overtake Jordan, Russell or Kareem, just that he will join their company. Those players are too good to EVER be bumped off the top Tier, but other greats may join them on the Top Tier, as it is possible for Kobe to do.

Also, anyone note Pau's appearance in Tier 4? Career stats of 19/9/3/2, 2 rings, European Player of the Year? Hell yes, he's on there. And, if the Lakers do indeed win 1 or two more rings, while Pau maintains or improves on his current level of production, he'll move into Tier 3, easily; and if it's two rings, one Finals MVP, and stats mirroring his 2010 Playoff numbers, then he could quite possibly move into Tier 2, especially if he plays into his mid-30s.

DISCLAIMER: This whole piece is opinion, and solely that of my own. I do not attempt to pass it off as fact, nor do I assume to represent the views of SSR in voicing my opinion.

Also, these tiers are not all-inclusive, they're just a guide of the sort of players I'd put in each tier. There may very will be players missing that should be in a Tier, in which case point them out in the comments.

Anyways, what do you guys think of my ranking system? Agree, disagree, think I'm a fucking moron? Feel free to discuss in the comments, just don't insult me too harshly. =]]

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Gah, SBN is really giving me the shits with their formatting.

< b > tags keep randomly appearing, hidden among the < br > s.

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 11:34 AM PDT reply actions

and they don't even show up in visual view, meaning more html-reading for me

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions

fixed

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions

And Tier Four is large because a lot of people who deserve to be higher never won a ring, and are thus stuck in Tier 4.

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 11:42 AM PDT reply actions

I think Elgin Baylor is the only player I put in Tier 3 who does not have a ring

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions

Ray Allen, and Ben Wallace in the same list as Karl Malone and Julius Erving...

I don’t know, man…

"I’m like a superhero. Call me Basketball Man." - LBJ

by LakerUNLTD on Jun 26, 2010 11:55 AM PDT reply actions

There's a big logjam at Tier 4.

Due to me instituting a ‘ring-or-gtfo’ policy for the top 3 tiers. May be well-served in splitting Tier 4 into 2 subdivisions, really. Though, remember, Ray is one of the top-2 pure shooters of all time, and Ben Wallace one of the most intimidating defensive Centers.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions

I see...

Yeah, that 2 subdivision thing would be appropriate, I believe, because I wouldn’t say that, for example, Ray Allen and Ben Wallace are the main parts to a championship… more like they are VERY good supporting players.. but wouldn’t be able to fully lead a team. Whereas Karl Malone and Julius Erving would be centerpieces for their teams.

"I’m like a superhero. Call me Basketball Man." - LBJ

by LakerUNLTD on Jun 26, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions

Well...

Karl Malone was a 1/2 punch with Stockton, and Dr. J won his championship with the help of Moses Malone, not to mention much of Erving’s best work was done in the ABA, and I’m not entirely including ABA contributions in these rankings.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions

Well I guess when I hear the names Erving and Malone I think legends.

Allen and Wallace, All Stars.

"I’m like a superhero. Call me Basketball Man." - LBJ

by LakerUNLTD on Jun 26, 2010 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions

Ben Wallace isn’t a legend, but he is a historically great defender.
4-Time DPoY
5-time All-Star
3-time All-NBA 2nd Team
2-time All-NBA 3rd Team
5-time All-Defense 1st Team
1-time All-defense 2nd Team
14 seasons
Career numbers of 6.2p/10.1r/2.1b/1.4a/1.3s on 48fg%, 42ft%
Playoff numbers of 7.2p/11.2r/1.9b/1.3a/1.5s
Considered the greatest post defender of his era.
Championship Ring

Karl Malone is a legend of the game, one of the top-3 power forwards of all time, but his lack of a ring holds him back.

And Julius Erving in the NBA:
Games – 836; Field Goal % – .507; Rebounds – 5,601; Assists – 3,224; Total Points – 18,364; Points per game [PPG] – 22.0
Considered one of the best athletes in League history.
1 NBA Title.

Ray Allen’s career numbers:
20.5ppg/4.3rpg/3.7apg, 45% from the field, 40% from deep, 90% from the line.
Considered one of the best shooters in League history.
1 NBA title.

Though, I did move Erving up one tier, giving him consideration for the respect other players had for him. Malone’s not moving up unless he steals a ring or something, though.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions

Wallace's main asset, of course, is being a 4-time DPoY

I don’t know of many players who’ve matched that.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions

Great analysis =D

But I can’t say that I wouldn’t take the old school guys if I had to choose. Just out of curiosity, who do people think is a better defensive player, D12 or Ben Wallace?

"I’m like a superhero. Call me Basketball Man." - LBJ

by LakerUNLTD on Jun 26, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions

Ben Wallace in his prime, easily.

Dwight has the athleticism, but he does not come anywhere near intimidating players like Wallace did. He’s not as tough, nor is he as skilled. Dwight’s one-on-one post defense is good, but not DPoY-caliber in its own right, and his defense out on the perimeter is decent due to his athleticism, but nothing like KG-in-his-prime level.

Dwight’s main defensive asset is his blocks, yet his career-high for a season is 2.9, Ben Wallace had three seasons above that. Dwight’s blocks have also been assessed to be some of the least valuable in the League, due to a high percentage of them being blocking jumpshots as opposed to dunks and layups.

Wallace also didn’t have the issue of foul trouble feature as heavily in his career, as far as I know, and his man-to-man post defense was superior to Howard’s.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions

Wow, that's impressive...

Especially considering Wallace is “only” 6’9.

"I’m like a superhero. Call me Basketball Man." - LBJ

by LakerUNLTD on Jun 26, 2010 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions

Many of history's greatest Centers were around that height.

Russell – 6’9"
Mikan – 6’10"
Moses Malone – 6’10"
Hakeem Olajuwon – 6’10" (listed at 7’, but insists he is 6’10")

Kareem (who was tall but slight, and avoided contact), David Robinson (who was an even 7’, but had no true bulk to him) and Shaq were the only truly dominant 7-footers.

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions

Oh, and Mutombo was 7'2".

Alonzo Mourning, conversely, was 6’10".

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions

and Wilt was 7'1"

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions

but skinny earlier on in his career

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions

The really big guys often are either really skinny,

or fail to stay healthy. Or, often, both.

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions

Lol...

Rookie Bynum:

BYNUMITE

"I’m like a superhero. Call me Basketball Man." - LBJ

by LakerUNLTD on Jun 26, 2010 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions

Or just unco-ordinated as hell.

See: Kwame Brown.

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions

Erving

22/6.7/3.9

Allen 20.5/4.3/3.7

Erving is better, but they are evidently comparable, there’s not a big difference seperating the two. And both have made their mark on history in their own ways. Dr. J will always be remembered for his dunks and athleticism on the court (not to mention his role as spokesman of the NBA and the respect in garnered him off it), whilst Ray will be remembered for his status is either the best or second-best shooter of all time along with Reggie Miller (also in the same Tier, without as much as a ring).

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions

Not to mention the pace in Erving's era was faster.

Inflating the stats of every player from that era.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions

You also have

to make up for the fact that Ray let a lot of his stats go to be a part of two separate three man teams. First, being the leading scorer for the Bucks, but splitting time with Glenn Robinson and the Alien Cassell, then again in Boston with Pierce and KG. Not to meniton his years in his prime he was pretty good at 25+ a game with Shard in Seattle. I don’t think its a stretch. Its only viewed as such because Erving was a pioneer and thus like Jordan can’t be viewed in the same light as other players who come along afterward. An argument that will never cease to end as long as there are generations playing up each player from different eras.

Unfortunately the legend of MJ has long surpassed the reality of MJ. -Jevon O

by Marty Mart on Jun 26, 2010 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions

Maybe I'm biased because I followed the SuperSonics...

and Ray Allen didn’t win us any playoff series.

"I’m like a superhero. Call me Basketball Man." - LBJ

by LakerUNLTD on Jun 26, 2010 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions

I mean

name a team that has had Rashard Lewis as its second option that has won one. Even in Orlando, it was Hedo/Vince then Dwight, and then Shard. It would’ve difficult for them to make it newhere. Its like being mad at Kobe for never winning with Lamar Odom as his second option

Unfortunately the legend of MJ has long surpassed the reality of MJ. -Jevon O

by Marty Mart on Jun 28, 2010 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions

Kinda weird with all the young players

Like why is Deron on the same level as Steve Nash? And 2 tiers above CP3? Deron hasn’t done anything yet other than average nice numbers.

I would do it like this:

Tier 1: Michael Jordan

Tier 2: Magic, Kareem, Kobe, Russel, Bird

Tier 3: Wilt, Shaq, West, Robertson etc etc

too lazy to do the rest

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

by Justin N. on Jun 26, 2010 12:11 PM PDT reply actions

Steve Nash has never actually done that much...

Two-time MVP (which I never truly agreed with), some 60-win teams, but no Finals appearances, and mediocre career numbers. And Paul’s injuries and lack of team success hurt him. And my method for assessing young players is as mentioned in the article:

For current players, it’s assumed that their current career stats will continue through for the rest of their career (an imperfect method, I know), no additional NBA Championships, MVPS or DPoYs will be won, and All-Star and All-NBA appearances will continue at current rate.
Using that method, many current players actually stack up very favourably to players from previous eras – interesting considering how many claim that modern basketball is lower-quality compared to that of the ‘80s and ’90s, particularly those who use that as defense for Kobe being ’nowhere near’ Michael.

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions

He's one tier above CP3?

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions

Yeah, I love Deron Williams and all...

But don’t know if his seperation above these guys are appropriate:

Carmelo Anthony
Kevin Durant
Chris Paul
Chris Bosh
Paul Pierce

"I’m like a superhero. Call me Basketball Man." - LBJ

by LakerUNLTD on Jun 26, 2010 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions

Hmmm... you do have a point.

Paul Pierce should be a Tier 4, not a Tier 5, in retrospect. I’ve already discussed the Deron/CP3 argument, Bosh’s team has sucked, KD hasn’t done enough for long enough, and Melo’s body of work through his time in the League is surprisingly underwhelming compared to his hype and his level of play earlier in the 09-10 season.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions

But I think you're right in bringing Deron down a peg.

Main thing that had me going for him is that his playoff appearances/work is better than any of those guys asides from Pierce, and his numbers are actually better than Nash’s.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions

Shifted him.

Done some more shuffling, as well.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions

sorry, i meant one

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

by Justin N. on Jun 26, 2010 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions

You iz tekkin mah thread views!!!!111

Sweet 16

by bluexfalcon on Jun 26, 2010 12:17 PM PDT reply actions

We'll share them =]]

There’s plenty go round, considering the frontpage is dead today.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions

Oh, and just so you know, your thread doesn't even rank in the top 10 viewed threads for today, the last three days, or the last week.

Seriously, posts from a week ago got more views than yours did, today. To be fair, those were frontpage posts linked on Yahoo and stuff, but still. =]]

/still on your case :P

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions

goddamit!!

I was hoping you would sleep it off lol

Sweet 16

by bluexfalcon on Jun 26, 2010 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions

Speaking of sleep, I should get some.

It’s 5.20am. Night. Or should I say morning? Or afternoon, as it is in LA?
/confused

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions

lol

twitter is on fire right now. I’ll head over there
=]

#worldcup

Sweet 16

by bluexfalcon on Jun 26, 2010 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions

people are prolly watching the U.S.A world cup game

I enjoy their failure at the moment.

Sweet 16

by bluexfalcon on Jun 26, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions

of these guys the only one i think who will ever move up in tiers is KD

possibly lebron if he can win a ring.

by malmario on Jun 26, 2010 12:23 PM PDT reply actions

LeBron's numbers, MVP awards, and 60-win teams are enough in themselves

that if he wins a single ring, he’ll skip Tier 3 and go straight to low-Tier 2. I certainly don’t like it, but it’s the truth.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 26, 2010 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions

Good thing that won't happen for a long time~

Today's sports media excels at over-reaction to a single event and specializes in hyperboles. But hey, it's that or my biochem textbook...

by Mike1204 on Jun 26, 2010 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions

I think Allen Iverson should be in there somewhere

As well as Tracy Mcgrady and Vince Carter. Mcgrady was arguably the best player on the planet during his 02-03 campaign and was a dominant wing player who not only scored but rebounded well and was an underrated passer. Even though Mcgrady suffered a HUGE dropoff during his career, I feel like if Carmelo is already in there, then Mcgrady should be as well. Carter is more consistent than Mcgrady and we forget that he used to be a 26-28 ppg and 5 rebounds 5 assist type of guy back in the day. Allen Iverson speaks for himself.

by EhondA on Jun 26, 2010 1:45 PM PDT reply actions

Vince, yeah, I was thinking of him.

Only thing that was stopping me was him being viewed as a consistent underachiever/choker. And I’m not putting TMac on there, injuries derailed him too fast. If you want to put TMac on there, Grant Hill needs to be there too.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/ - Visit, and be loved. Troll, and die a painful death. =]]

Questions? Queries? Comments? Concerns? Expletive-filled inflammatory trolling? Contact me at saurav.a.das.1994@gmail.com

by Saurav A. Das on Jun 27, 2010 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions

Not sure about this...

If you’re dealing with the greatest of all time, I’m not sure the issue of rings should be the dividing point. Wilt had one, Russell had 11, but Wilt was by far the better player. Russell was on the best team. Wilt would kick Russell’s tail every time but the rest of the Sixers (or Lakers) couldn’t handle their assignments and the losses piled up.

TIER 1
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
***okay, no question on these guys deserving it. But, others do as well. See notes below.

TIER 2
Magic Johnson – tier 1
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant – tier 1
Wilt Chamberlain – tier 1
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Bob Cousy – no way. Tier 3 or 4.
John Havlicek – very good player. Compare him to Magic or Kobe or Wilt??? Sorry.
George Mikan
Isiah Thomas

TIER 3
Scottie Pippen (tier 2. without Pippen, Jordan wins nothing)
Elgin Baylor – tier 2 (changed the game)
Hakeem Olajuwon – tier 2
Shaquille O’Neal – tier 2
Tim Duncan (tier 2)
Bob Petit
David Robinson
Willis Reed
Sam Jones – tier 4,maybe 3.
Robert Parish – equating him to Shaq and Hakeem? Wow.
Clyde Drexler
Gary Payton
Kevin Garnett – maybe tier 2
Kevin McHale
Julius Erving

TIER 4
John Stockton* – tier 3
Moses Malone – tier 3
Karl Malone* – tier 3, maybe tier 2.
Charles Barkley* – Beware, Chuck would eat this list, tier by tier.
Pete Maravich
Clyde Lovellette – Whoa
Walt Frazier
Bob McAdoo
Tom Heinsohn
LeBron James* – probably tier 3 for now, and heading for tier 2.
Patrick Ewing*
Nate Thurmond
Dwyane Wade – definitely tier 3 and heading for 2.
Steve Nash – tier 3
Jason Kidd
Ben Wallace – are you kidding?
Alonzo Mourning
Dwight Howard
Dikeme Mutumbo
Pau Gasol
Ray Allen
Reggie Miller
Paul Pierce

Note: Players with an asterisk (*) next to their name deserve to be higher, but are stopped by the lack of a Championship ring)

TIER 5
Wes Unseld
K.C. Jones
Bill Walton
Gail Goodrich
David Thompson
Alex English
James Worthy – Ray Allen and Paul Pierce over James Worthy? Please adjust dosage.
Adrian Dantley
Nate Archibald
George Gervin
Carmelo Anthony
Kevin Durant
Chris Paul
Chris Bosh
Deron Williams
Amar’e Stoudemire

Thanks for taking the time to compile the list. We all have our opinions.

If you’re dealing with the greatest of all time, I think you stop with the first two tiers; or create all-time All Pro teams. The problem with that is trying to assign today’s positions like SG, SF, PF on players from the 60s and 70s, when those positions weren’t so well defined.

If I have to pick five guys for the first team, given today’s terms, I’d have a bit of trouble.

PG — Magic
SG — Jordan
C — Wilt
SF —
PF —

Nobody on Tier 1 for the forwards. From the Tier 2 list do I have to use Bird at SF when he’s clearly not a Tier 1 player? Or, can I toss Kareem in at PF, even though he never played the position? Or, if you can’t choose between Magic and Oscar, do you put Magic in at SF because you know he has to be on the team?

The very best players of all time, in my opinion, are those who completely revolutionized the game.

Completely changed the post game (in different ways):
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Mikan (in WNBA — White National Basketball Association)
Even Shaq…who used his enormous butt like nobody in history. But Wilt would have owned him.

Dominated from PG:
Magic
Oscar

Took over games and willed team to victory, from SG:
Jordan
Kobe
West

PF:
K. Malone
Duncan
(Who else? If you want true power forwards, these are the best two)

SF:
Bird
Baylor (Jordan/Kobe of the 60s)

Okay…I’m tired now. Must take my nap.

Former LakersForDeuce: "The 2010 champs made me up the ante and change my name!"

by LakersForTrey on Jun 26, 2010 3:33 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs

I think people underrate what KG

was able to do at PF after growing into the position. He had a nice back to the basket game, plus the mid-range game and great passing skills. He was just never surrounded with the talent to overtake the Lakers and the one time he did have them, the Lakers surrounded themselves with more talent. I’d say he’s up there with Duncan and Malone just statistically alone. He was one of the most dominant players to begin this decade and the only reason he hasn’t continued to dominate now is due to knee injuries.
Also, as much as I hate the man, Lebron/Barkley would have to be in the conversation of SFs as wel. Never going to say that their legends, but I think the case can be made for both of them.

Unfortunately the legend of MJ has long surpassed the reality of MJ. -Jevon O

by Marty Mart on Jun 26, 2010 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions

Wilt would kick Russell’s tail every time

Actually, while Wilt’s stats were marginally better, the rate at which Russel was able to hold him below his scoring average was better than anyone else, and Russell beat him even in the rebounding battle. Moreso than that, Wilt would positively be scared to play Russell. And Russell played through several different teams – same organisation, but the players kept changing, and yet he was able to keep winning.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/ - Visit, and be loved. Troll, and die a painful death. =]]

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 27, 2010 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions

Wilt

had two rings, one was with the 1967-68 Philadelphia 76ers which was one of the most dominant teams ever and one was with the 1971-72 Lakers. He was never scared to play Russel ever, rather they enjoyed each others friendship and the challenge of being matched up. Russel didnt exactly hold Wilt to less than is scoring averages he just made him work harder and Wilt respected that. Look into the match ups a little more, Whether or not his team won or lost, Russel NEVER owned Wilt— at scoring OR rebounding — Wilt scored 62 points and grabbed 55 rebounds on Russels ass.

What do you call three Celtics trying to make an oreo out of Fisher? "...AND ONE! "

by Captain $hugg on Jun 27, 2010 4:33 AM PDT up reply actions

Bill Russel? Hell no! What, because he won so many rings?

He was 6’9". He weighed 220 pounds. He once got 40 rebounds in one game. He won like 500 rings with the Celtics, he once saved a man by performing a tracheotomy with a spoon and napkin while… getting 40 rebounds in a game.

A 6’9" 220 pound center in the modern era would play off the bench, or in China, maybe Europe. Harsh?

Sorry.

He was an epic player of that era, and unfortunately he gets thrown in the mix with true greats of the modern era, post about 1979. Because in the modern era he would not have stacked up that much. I mean, 40 rebounds? Well, when you’re playing with these guys (picture posted below), it makes more sense… Here’s a list of people with 40+ rebounds in a game? See a pattern here? 1950s and 1960s? Last time it happened was in 1969…

Oohhhhkay. Let’s really rate the greats here. The greatest players that have offered the most enjoyment to fans. That sound better. Seeing Bill Russel bludgeon a bunch of shorter, less-athletic players for a decade was probably great for Boston, but shit for everybody else. Here’s a true list of greats, by contribution to “bad ass factor” in some way, shape, or form, for the NBA.

Tier 1

Addam Fucking Morrision. Hold your jocks bitches, you know he represents. Stache, Cash, and Flash, Ammo fuckin rules with TWO championship rings.

Shawn Kemp. This guy snorted so much coke, and dunked so damn hard, he was a fan (and pimp) favorite in Seattle for years. He brought the “rain”, and his aura still haunts the now teamless barrios of Seattle, looking for blow and a rim to dunk on.

Shaquille O’neal. You know it baby. People wanted to watch Shaq dunk and break things, and do stupid shit, and rap, and star in bad movies. He was a joy to watch. During his glory days he brought so much fan love to Lakerland. Even his earlier career in Orlando was great, because he was so menacing. Rar.

Michael Jordan. Dunks. Yes. Crazy-ass shots. Yes. Gambling problem. Check. Waaaay too good at basketball. Roger. Watching Jordan play was awesome, he was freaking crazy.

Kobe Bryant. Ditto what I said about Jordan, just substitute “poor decisions in Colorado” for “Gambling problems”. Hey, we still get to see this guy play, it’s one of the greatest joys of my pathetic existence.

Dominique Wilkins. Le Frenchy. Le Slam Dunk. Short Shorts. Bad-ass fade. Man he was fun to watch. He did all sorts of crazy stuff, but always attacked the basket like a mad man.

Charles Barkley. I loved watching Barkley play. He was a ferocious, short, fat guy that stuffed it on everybody. He intimidated everybody, and liked to fight ugly white dudes from Detroit.

Showtime Lakers. All of you. Magic, Kareem, Worthy. Thanks, it was sooo fun. Coop-a-loop. Worthy’s spin. Magic in all his glory. Young Byron dunking, AC “virigin weirdness” Green, and Rambis Youth made it quite the special time. You’re all Tier 1 champions.

Tier 2

Elden Campbell. For a while in the early 90s, he was the only guy on the Lakers who could dunk.Fans remember that. Yes, dunking is important, it’s what fans like.

European players of the 1990s. Here’s to you, Detlef Shrempf, Arvedis Sabonis, and Sarunas Marcilonis. You guys kept it real, sporting mullets, mustaches, and other nonsense. Without your sacrifices in an era where you were usually the punching bag of greats like MJ, 7’0" shooting guards like Dirk Nowitzki would never have had a chance to steal MVPs from Kobe Bryant.

Shawn Bradley. I believe his name is mormon for “please dunk on me”. That you allowed so many people to dunk on you was wonderful. Also, watching you run really excited and amazed most people. How did two sticks propel all that blah down the court. Magnifique.

Rodman. Because weird shit would happen. Thanks for bringing it to LA, even for just a little while. Thanks for prepping Phil for Ron Ron. Thanks for boning Madonna. LOL. j/k, that’s kinda weird.

Bottom Tier.
This is what I’ll call the “bad tier”.

Utah Jazz and fans. Hi, your style of basketball is crap. Thanks for boring me with an era of Stockton to Malone turning into Deron to Boozer. Thanks for being A-holes. Bust most of all, lol, thanks for giving us Fish back! Damn it feels good to be a gangster.

Cleveland. Hi. You are on the bottom tier also. Why, you may ponder? Well let me answer. Hype. It’s all hype. Futility flows in your water supply! Lebron is a pretender! Go New Jersey (sorry Wave). Seriously though, Flava Flav had it right.

For me its the consistent inconsistency that concerns me - PAGFL
It's always AMMO Time, in spirit- DexterFishmore

by 99bc99 on Jun 26, 2010 4:00 PM PDT reply actions 9 recs

epic. rec'd

"i remember one time,we was playing basketball,and we was winning the game,it was so competitive,he broke a piece of lead from a table,and he threw it and it went right through his heart and he died right on the court" - Ron Artest on wonderful childhood memories.

by eLrEiEc on Jun 26, 2010 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions

Amazing. Tear to my eye..

Addam Fucking Morrision. Hold your jocks bitches, you know he represents. Stache, Cash, and Flash, Ammo fuckin rules with TWO championship rings.

Sweet 16

by bluexfalcon on Jun 26, 2010 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions

LMAO

Shawn Bradley. I believe his name is mormon for "please dunk on me".

Sweet 16

by bluexfalcon on Jun 26, 2010 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions

LOL @ Bradley. He's the NBA's bitch

Even Fisher dunked on him once.

Today's sports media excels at over-reaction to a single event and specializes in hyperboles. But hey, it's that or my biochem textbook...

by Mike1204 on Jun 26, 2010 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions

i cried while i rec'd

Brian Shaw deserves to be in the first tier as well,and i would like to submit the clippers for the bottom tier as well, there fail has made clipper basketball unwatchable since the dawn of baron davis which was time

www.reverbnation.com/czheckproductions
www.mybeatshop.com/czheckproductions
Great men are never without flaws, but neither are they without magnificent traits that caused them to rise to such heights.

by Czheck on Jun 26, 2010 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs

LOL

epic baron davis line

Sweet 16

by bluexfalcon on Jun 26, 2010 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions

Czheck, there's a reason I didn't invoke Brian Shaw

It has to do with awesomeness, ninjas, spies, and Jenine Garaffalo. I’ll just leave it at that, but now we’re sunk. Best watch your back.

For me its the consistent inconsistency that concerns me - PAGFL
It's always AMMO Time, in spirit- DexterFishmore

by 99bc99 on Jun 26, 2010 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

i cant believe you pulled the garaffalo card

thats epic

Czheck Productions
My Instrumentals
Forget Lebron chasing Kobe,hes got to catch up to Adam Morrison first

by Czheck on Jun 26, 2010 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions

ROTFL

"Just by the aura of D.J. Mbenga being there, the shot missed."

by shaqfor3 on Jun 26, 2010 11:36 PM PDT up reply actions

You forgot that a 6'9", 220lb Center routinely owned a 7'1", 250lb Center.

Who’s still the only player in NBA history to score 100 in a game. And also, the average height of a Center in that era was around 6’8"-6’9". Plus, throughout history, the average height for a dominating Center is 6’10". Moses, Hakeem, Russel, Mikan, Kareem, Shaq, Robinson – out of them, only Shaq, Kareem and Robinson are 7ft, and only Shaq is a truly ‘big’ 7ft.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/ - Visit, and be loved. Troll, and die a painful death. =]]

Questions? Queries? Comments? Concerns? Expletive-filled inflammatory trolling? Contact me at saurav.a.das.1994@gmail.com

by Saurav A. Das on Jun 27, 2010 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions

Don't take away the epicness now!

REC REC REC

Sweet 16

by bluexfalcon on Jun 27, 2010 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions

We talking team vs. team, or Wilt vs. Russel? Yeah Russel's "team" owned Wilt's...

Chamberlain averaged exactly 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds a game during those 142 games, the point totals brought down a bit by his late-in-career transformation from relentless scoring machine to more well-rounded player. In the early years Wilt scored 50 or more points seven times against Russell, including a high of 62 on January 14, 1962. By the time we could start referring to these men as “aging warriors,” the numbers were a bit more back to earth. Wilt’s high game in their final year was 35, and three times he scored in single figures.

Russell’s totals against Wilt were 14.5 points and 23.7 rebounds per game. His highest-scoring game against his arch rival was 37.

But as can be seen, Wilt looked like he handled Russel pretty well…

For me its the consistent inconsistency that concerns me - PAGFL
It's always AMMO Time, in spirit- DexterFishmore

by 99bc99 on Jun 27, 2010 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions

Overall, Saurav - Great List, I think......

For 99bc99, I think some of your Bill Russell “Dislike” comes from the Fact that most of his rings came against The Seven Foot Two Inch Purple and Gold Wearing Wilt Chamberlin.

Not a short guy, there…..

But again Saurav Great List.

GameTime!

by Celtics18and19 on Jun 28, 2010 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions

He wasn't wearing purple and gold for most of those Finals'

Mainly Sixers’ colors during the ECF’s.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Jun 28, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions

I meant Warriors/Sixers.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Jun 28, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions

For 99bc99, I think some of your Bill Russell "Dislike" comes from the Fact that most of his rings came against The Seven Foot Two Inch Purple and Gold Wearing Wilt Chamberlin.

Not cause of the uni. more because of this:

Actually, while Wilt’s stats were marginally better, the rate at which Russel was able to hold him below his scoring average was better than anyone else, and Russell beat him even in the rebounding battle. Moreso than that, Wilt would positively be scared to play Russell.

I said it before and I’ll say it again:

Wilt had two rings, one was with the 1967-68 Philadelphia 76ers which was one of the most dominant teams ever and one was with the 1971-72 Lakers. He was never scared to play Russel ever, rather they enjoyed each others friendship and the challenge of being matched up. Russel didnt exactly hold Wilt to less than is scoring averages he just made him work harder and Wilt respected that. Look into the match ups a little more, Whether or not his team won or lost, Russel NEVER owned Wilt— at scoring OR rebounding — Wilt scored 62 points and grabbed 55 rebounds on Russels ass.

Wilt was consistently the far better player in these match ups and that was not a biased point he was trying to make, only to present the facts.

What do you call three Celtics trying to make an oreo out of Fisher? "...AND ONE! "

by Captain $hugg on Jun 28, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions

Of course it is Celtics18and19

I won’t deny that :)

For me its the consistent inconsistency that concerns me - PAGFL
It's always AMMO Time, in spirit- DexterFishmore

by 99bc99 on Jun 28, 2010 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions

Tier 1
Brian Shaw

Tier 2
everyone else

"The only difference between a good shot and a bad shot is if it goes in or not."
- Charles Barkley

by KobeisGod on Jun 29, 2010 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs

+1 and rec

Czheck Productions
My Instrumentals
Lebrons waiting to see where Adam Morrison goes first before he signs

by Czheck on Jul 1, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions

You get a rec, but Tier 0, which is actually the highest tier

Is inhabited by the creature known as Ammo.

For me its the consistent inconsistency that concerns me - PAGFL
It's always AMMO Time, in spirit- DexterFishmore

by 99bc99 on Jul 4, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

O_o

Sweet 16

by bluexfalcon on Jul 4, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions

you have alonzo mourning over allen iverson? i respectfully disagree with that choice.

by eLrEiEc on Jun 26, 2010 4:27 PM PDT reply actions

along with bosh, d-will, and amar''''e being mentioned...

iverson’s past two or three years haven’t been the best, but the dude played with heart and was one the most influential players in his prime.

by eLrEiEc on Jun 26, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions

i prefer a'm'a'r'e'

by Czheck on Jun 26, 2010 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Yeah, I missed AI and Vince.

Putting them in, now.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/ - Visit, and be loved. Troll, and die a painful death. =]]

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 27, 2010 12:03 AM PDT up reply actions

My attempt at organizing your tiers

I tried to keep it to 25, but the final number is 27 because I wasn’t able to cut anyone from my 4th tier.

TIER 1 – The best of the best.
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson

TIER 2 – The rest of what I consider the best of the game.
Bill Russel
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Kobe Bryant
Larry Bird
Jerry West

TIER 3 – Some of the best ever, but I’m not willing to put them in first two tiers.
Shaquille O’Neal
Tim Duncan
Oscar Robertson
Bob Cousy
George Mikan
Julius Erving
Hakeem Olajuwon

TIER 4 – great players, some with rings as lesser stars, some with none
Scottie Pippen
Elgin Baylor
John Havlicek
Bob Petit
David Robinson
Willis Reed
Clyde Drexler
Kevin McHale
Isiah Thomas
John Stockton
Karl Malone
Pete Maravich

There aren’t really that many current players I was able to put in this discussion, I mean we’re talking about the all time greats! It’s wayyyy to early for even Dwayne Wade, and if he retired tomorrow he wouldn’t crack this.

by remingtonmartin on Jun 26, 2010 9:16 PM PDT reply actions

Well, here's the thing.

If Dwayne Wade continues at his career production level, he’s better than Pete Maravich, John Havlicek, Bob Cousy, Julius Erving, and possibly even Jerry West.

The only thing that seperates today’s stars and yesterday’s legends is time and an ability to not fuck things up down the road.

And I’m surprised at how high everyone rates Magic. I mean, asides from the Showtime nostalgia, he couldn’t score to the level many of the other all-time greats could, wasn’t that great of a defender and not extremely athletic.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/ - Visit, and be loved. Troll, and die a painful death. =]]

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 27, 2010 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions

thats because

he was the best passer the game has ever seen.

More so than any player ever, the way he handled the rock and the flow/tempo of the game was as if it was in the palm of his hand, and mostly, it was. He knew how to take over a game and what the situation called for. He wouldnt force but seemed to know exactly when to be a scorer, a playmaker, a rebounder, a defender, etc. He wanted the ball in pressure situations. He could make the big clutch shots, plus he could play all five positions.

At 6’9" he was extremely athletic and there had never been a point guard that tall or big in the history of the game. His speed, strength, size and court vision gave opposing point guards fits, he led the league in steals a couple times.

Basketball isn’t just about scoring obviously, there have been plenty of players who scored more than Magic true, but only maybe just one or two who can be considered greater players.

What do you call three Celtics trying to make an oreo out of Fisher? "...AND ONE! "

by Captain $hugg on Jun 27, 2010 5:01 AM PDT up reply actions

Yep

I read his co-autobiography, “When the Game Was Ours” and his greatest strength was controlling the game. There was a part that said, if you limited Jordan’s shot attempts, you had dominated him. If you limited Magic’s shot attempts, he had dominated you.

"I’m like a superhero. Call me Basketball Man." - LBJ

by LakerUNLTD on Jun 27, 2010 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions

I just feel soo young when I see these all-time greats list

There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be committed against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the Limelight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.

by BrittneyM on Jun 26, 2010 11:07 PM PDT reply actions

Erving is a top two tier, period.

Even if the ABA accomplishments only account for a small percentage towards this system— He WAS the league. forced the merger himself. The NBA HAD to have him to save basketball. It was that simple. Saying he needed Moses to win a Championship holds about as much weight as saying Magic needing Kareem or Kobe needing Shaq, duh!!!
Still the most gracefull & exciting player to ever play the game, at a time when things were dark, mid 70-s mid 80’s Dr.J gave us hope. He WAS Michael Jordan back then.. Michael f-in JORDAN!
…how soon they forget.

What do you call three Celtics trying to make an oreo out of Fisher? "...AND ONE! "

by Captain $hugg on Jun 26, 2010 11:31 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs

heres my version:

If it was a simple top 20 of all time list, I would probably have on the fringe, somewhere between 10th and 8th and maybe when he retires, Kobe lands in the 7th or 6th slot but I dont think he can move much further after that or get ever get to GOAT status.

Tier 1
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird

TIER 2
Wilt Chamberlain
Jerry West
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bill Russell
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Shaquille O’Neal

TIER 3
Scottie Pippen
Elgin Baylor
John Havlicek
Bob Petit
David Robinson
Willis Reed
Clyde Drexler
Kevin McHale
Bob Cousy
George Mikan
Julius Erving

Isiah Thomas
John Stockton
Karl Malone

"Just by the aura of D.J. Mbenga being there, the shot missed."

by shaqfor3 on Jun 26, 2010 11:51 PM PDT reply actions

top 10 list*

"Just by the aura of D.J. Mbenga being there, the shot missed."

by shaqfor3 on Jun 26, 2010 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions

Moses Malone pwned and should be in people's tiers.

I have tears that he’s not in more tiers.

For me its the consistent inconsistency that concerns me - PAGFL
It's always AMMO Time, in spirit- DexterFishmore

by 99bc99 on Jun 26, 2010 11:52 PM PDT up reply actions

to me bird should be in tier 2

"You are asking me if LeBron is going to New York?, I’m trying to tell you in a polite way, I don’t give a shit"

by kb06 on Jun 27, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions

Russell was a mediocre offensive player

Look at his career FG%. No way he’s in anywhere close to the top tier, regardless of how many ringshe won in a downsized league.

I’d make more comments, but doing so from my iPhone is a pain.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Jun 27, 2010 8:28 AM PDT reply actions

Mediocre offensive player, but quite possibly the best defensive player of all time.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/ - Visit, and be loved. Troll, and die a painful death. =]]

Questions? Queries? Comments? Concerns? Expletive-filled inflammatory trolling? Contact me at saurav.a.das.1994@gmail.com

by Saurav A. Das on Jun 27, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions

True, but his offense doesn't match the defense of a lot of the players in that tier

And I really think he would look different a few decades later when the average level of athleticism and size skyrocketed.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Jul 3, 2010 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions

The 'size' of big men didn't exactly skyrocket.

That’s a myth of perception. The average Center in Russel’s time = 6’9"
Average Center throughout history = 6’10"
Average Center now = 6’11"

Two inches isn’t a major difference. It’s not like Russel is Elgin Baylor, the 6’5" power forward (oh, wait, Barkley did that too, 30 years later? Who woulda thought it)

And Russel was an Olympic-calibre athlete, he could have qualified for Olympic high jump, and would have done so if he wasn’t playing basketball. Even accounting for progress through time, Russel could still compete athletically with the modern Center.

If Kobe doesn't make his teammates better, how on Earth does Adam Morrison have two rings!?

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/ - Visit, and be loved. Troll, and die a painful death. =]]

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by Saurav A. Das on Jul 4, 2010 2:53 AM PDT up reply actions

I may be naive

but I do think KG deserves to be on the list of best PFs to ever play the game, right next to Tim Duncan, even if he plays C and refuses to accept it. Also, I think Hakeem needs to be put into top tier. What he did as a center for big man moves was revolutionary, almost as much as the sky hook. I mean they named an entire set of moves after him. His skillset alone should put him in tier 2, but the fact he won MVPs and championships should put him up there as well. Also, Moses Malone should be up there on the top tiers and Scottie Pippen is tier 2 completely, idc if you think he’s overrated or underrated.

Unfortunately the legend of MJ has long surpassed the reality of MJ. -Jevon O

by Marty Mart on Jun 28, 2010 8:37 AM PDT reply actions

Also,

if Elgin Baylor gets a pass for skill, then Stockton should definitely get a pass. One of the best passers ever and he did it for a longer period of time than anyone else. I mean he was freaking 35 outrunning 20 year olds. I’m just saying, he should be at least tier 3, skillwise even without championships.

Unfortunately the legend of MJ has long surpassed the reality of MJ. -Jevon O

by Marty Mart on Jun 28, 2010 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions

It's tough.

I mean, KG was unbelievable in his younger days. I still can’t get over the fact that he once had to run POINT GUARD for a a portion of a season due to Minny’s PG being injured. But there’s the fact he never won anything until teaming up with two other future HOF-ers.

And I can see what you’re saying about Hakeem and Scottie, but I just can’t put them on the same level as Kobe, Larry, Magic, Wilt, Oscar etc.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/ - Visit, and be loved. Troll, and die a painful death. =]]

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 28, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions

Yeah

but its like this. Had Jordan stayed gone, Scottie would have won MVPs if he hadn’t been injured. He was almost a Finals MVP twice and he was the best perimeter defender in the league at the time. And I don’t see the problem with The Dream being put in there. I mean he has a nickname like all those guys. He transformed the game in a way. He had the MVPs and the championships. He finally got someone to play with him, it just so happened to coincide with the time when Jordan was gone, and he furthered the position of C to a place no one has been able to replicate as a big man. Just saying. I think the Dream definitely deserves to be in there.
Also, you’re not discounting Wilt or Oscar or Magic or Larry for playing with Hall of Famers and I don’t think the same should be done. It’s be the same injustice that was thrown around for Kobe and honestly, KG was the best of those 3 hall of famers and they needed him more than he needed them. You could have paired him with anyone and they would’ve won. I mean imagine if KG came here and played alongside Drew. Would you have discounted both Kobe and KG because they played with each other. Just saying, his defense and steady contributions while playing every position on the floor at 7’ is something not many people could do in history. I mean KG did historical things in those losing seasons and even broke records when he was younger. I mean he led the league’s forwards in blocks in his SECOND season. Just saying, he got to the WCF with Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell as his main perimiter contributors. That has to be worth something, I mean he should get a trophy just for not being choked in practice. lol.

Unfortunately the legend of MJ has long surpassed the reality of MJ. -Jevon O

by Marty Mart on Jun 28, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions

dont agree with alot of these tiers! nagic and wilt tier 1 without a doubt! ben wallace,i dont care how good his defense was,to be an elite all time you need to be an offfnesive threat aswell,and he and no offense what so ever and was worse then shaq at ft’s! karl malone probly should be 2 no worse then 3 but i would go 2! mose malone was better then parish,just because he was part of the first big three in boston,bird and mchale were much better then parrish! Hakeem should probly be higher aswell! i think you have alot of 3 tier and 4 tier players that should be reversed!drexler to high,got is title pigging backing on hakeem,i would have dominique wilkins higher then drexler!and where is maurice cheeks!dumars should be tier 5 or maybe even a 4 tier!

by the fantasy king on Jun 28, 2010 9:38 PM PDT reply actions

Didn't even read...

Fix your grammar up.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/ - Visit, and be loved. Troll, and die a painful death. =]]

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by Saurav A. Das on Jun 29, 2010 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions

being serious for once.. = ) ( I like this way of categorizing btw) I'll try to keep it to 25 or so.

Tier 1:
Michael
Kareem
Magic
Wilt

Tier 2:
Kobe
Larry
Russell
Oscar
West
Dr. J
Moses
Isiah
Cousy
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan

Tier 3:
Havlicek
Scottie
Elgin
Pettit
KG
Charles
Robinson
Glove
McHale

"The only difference between a good shot and a bad shot is if it goes in or not."
- Charles Barkley

by KobeisGod on Jun 29, 2010 6:18 PM PDT reply actions

No love for CWebb?

C’mon! Not even Tier 5? Sure he got traded a lot and was derailed by injuries but the dude had all-world all-time talent I believe. Yeah, he was a Kings player but I’d rank him on level with Amare at least.

by Danish78 on Jun 30, 2010 8:01 AM PDT reply actions