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Everything you know about Derek Fisher is wrong

Um, OK, so full disclosure: The title of this piece is a bit of hyperbole.  A more correct title would be "There's a slight possibility that the order of importance you have assigned to the reasons why Derek Fisher shouldn't be the starting point guard of a championship contender is a tad bit inaccurate", but I think SB Nation has a word count limit on titles. Forgive my exaggeration, but hey, the flashy headline puts butts in the seats.

Everything you know about Derek Fisher is true.  You know he's an extremely poor defender, on account of his being ancient in NBA terms.  You know he hasn't shown the ability to shoot the ball well this year.  You know he's considered a very good leader, and that the only viable explanation for his continuing to play a large role in the Lakers rotation is due to the experience and intangibles he brings to the team.  But it's an accepted truth that Fisher's biggest liability is on the defensive end, and I'm not so sure that's true.  So, to aide me in re-aligning your perceptions, I've invited my good friends, advanced statistics, to help convince you that up is down, black is white, and Derek Fisher hurts the Lakers more on offense than on defense.

Star-divide

Let's start with the basics, shall we?  Derek Fisher, circa 2010, can not shoot the ball very well.  On the year, Fisher is shooting a lovely 37.9% on all field goals.  He's hitting 35.6% from 3 point range.  Throw it all together, and it's good for an eFG of 45.1%.  It's not the worst on the entire team, but the names below Fisher certainly make one squeamish:  Luke Walton, Josh Powell, and Adam Morrison are the only Lakers to be shooting less efficiently than Fisher.  For comparison's sake, the worst shooting team in the league, the New Jersey Nets, clock in at 45.3% eFG.

It's not the worst shooting year Fisher's ever had, but it's pretty close, and it is certainly the worst year he's had since re-donning the purple and gold in 2007.  Last year, everyone remembers Derek's struggle towards the end of the season and into the beginning of the playoffs, but before that struggle, he was actually on pace to break his career high in shooting percentage.  Even with a two month slump, 2008-2009 was the 2nd best shooting year of his career.  This year, however, Fish has been missing shots with startling consistency.  His monthly splits from November to February for eFG are 48%, 45%, 45%. 43%, and none of those numbers are good.  And, since his only job as the non dominant guard in the triangle offense is to float around the perimeter and hit open shots, it's pretty clear that he's not doing the Lakers offense any favors.

But it's not just the inability to hit open shots that has me thinking Derek Fisher is hurting the Lakers badly on offense.  It is the types of shots he takes.  For someone with tons of experience, for someone who Phil Jackson supposedly trusts to "run the offense the right way", Derek Fisher has abhorrent shot selection.  This is best illustrated by looking at the shooting information provided by the fine people over at 82games.com.  As you can see below, they have broken down Fisher's shot selection by location, and by how much time has been taken off the shot clock.

Shot selection
Shot
Att.
eFG%
Ast'd
Blk'd
Pts
Jump
85%  .475   71%  1%  5.5 
Close
14%  .350   38%  23%  0.7 
Dunk
0%  .000   0%  0%  0.0 
Tips
0%  .000   0%  0%  0.0 
Inside
15%  .339   38%  23%  0.7 
Shot clock usage
Secs.
Att.
eFG%
Ast'd
Blk'd
Pts
0-10
36%  .503   66%  7%  2.4 
11-15
25%  .448   70%  5%  1.5 
16-20
27%  .430   73%  2%  1.6 
21+
12%  .382   44%  0%  0.6 
Crunch
39%  .415   65%  1%  2.2 

 

There are two things I want to address here.  First of all, look at the distribution of shots throughout the shot clock.  Fisher takes more than a 1/3 of his shots very early in the clock.  Now, the Lakers are a team that likes to push the pace in an attempt to create transition baskets, so Fisher's distribution looks just like every other Laker on the team.  There's just one problem:  Derek Fisher is just about the guy you least want to get the ball in transition.  He's not filling the wing, ready to throw down on the 2 on 1 break.  The proof is on the other side of our tables.  On shots in close (i.e. for Fisher, layups), he's shooting an astronomically bad 35%.  So, since Fisher is ineffective filling the lane in transition, where do all of his early shot clock attempts come from?  That would be from the dreaded Pull Up Jumper In Transition.  Fisher has at least 1-2 per game it seems, and they are very ineffective shots.  For this, I direct your attention back to the 0-10 seconds category of the right hand table.  Now, I know what you're thinking.  "But, C.A., his best shooting percentage comes early in the clock."  Right you are friend, and if you were playing 5 Derek Fishers on the same team, you'd absolutely gouge your own eyes out want one of them to shoot early in the clock.  But Fisher is by far the worst Laker on the team shooting during this period of the shot clock.  The next closest player is Kobe Bryant (himself of questionable shot selection) who has an eFG of 53.7% in the first 10 seconds of the shot clock. 

In summation, Fisher takes a high percentage of his shots early in the shot clock, despite the fact that anybody else on his team would be a statistically better option to go with that early in the offense.  The veteran with strong leadership is just as prone to force up a bad early shot as anybody on the team.  Considering the offensive struggles of the team overall, and the consistent theme of a team that is either unwilling or unable to get the ball inside as much as it should, Derek Fisher's offensive performance and decision making is a microcosm of all that is wrong with the Laker offense.

633502095110658970-facepalm_medium

OK, fine, so Fisher isn't exactly the bee's knees on offense.  You already knew that.  But how can he possibly be worse on offense than defense?  It may not seem realistic, but just about every advanced statistic there is with the intention of measuring an individual's offense and defense all say the same thing.  For example, Basketball Reference has an individual Offensive Rating and Defensive Rating, which is simply an individualized calculation of a player's effect on the the team's OR and DR (which we've been talking about all year).  Derek Fisher's individual OR is 104 and his DR is 105, which means when he's on the floor, the Lakers score an average of 104 points per 100 possessions, and give up 105 points per 100.  Compare this to the Lakers overall numbers of 108.8 OR and 102.4 DR, and you see that, per 100 possessions, the Lakers offense is 5 points worse while the defense is only 2.5 points worse with Fisher on the floor.

Or, you could look at the example of win shares.  Win shares is a lot more straight-forward, in the sense that it gives you a number which does not need to be compared to anything else to provide relevance.  The only problem is that I have no idea how it's calculated.  In any case, Derek Fisher's Win Shares provide a pretty clear picture.  Offensive win shares: 0.8.  Defensive win shares: 2.4.  I have no idea what those numbers mean, but in comparison to each other, the message is clear.  Also, for the record, the rest of the Laker win shares fall in line with our expectations regarding each player's importance on each side of the ball.  Ron Artest and Lamar Odom have more defensive win shares than offensive.  Gasol and Bynum are higher on the offensive end.  Bryant is higher on offense than defense, but in a fairly equal distribution.

Unfortunately, these are both team statistical measures which have been broken down to an individual, and so it is possible that Fisher's defensive numbers are skewed because his teammates are so formidable defensively.  What is desired is a way to measure a player's individual offensive vs. defensive production.  Sadly, such statistics do not truly exist, but one can make a mildly compelling case using PER.  We've all been over the issues regarding PER, and how it can or can not be effective as a measuring tool.  If you don't want to hear about how it makes this particular case, feel free to stick your fingers in your ears for the next 5 minutes.  Then, remember that you are reading instead of listening.

For the rest of you, the argument breaks down like this.  PER, which is the combination of many different statistical categories, is basically considered in this argument to be the measure of offensive efficiency (there are some defensive factors included in PER, but they are pretty small in relation to all the offensive factors).  So, if we treat a player's PER as a measurement of his individual offensive production, we can treat opposing PER (the PER your opponent earns against you) as a measure of your defensive production.  It's an inexact approximation to be sure, but it's also not completely invalid.  And, since 82games.com happens to measure opposing PER, we have the opportunity to take a look.

Confused_medium

Once again, this appears to show that Fisher is more of a problem on offense than defense.  Fisher's PER is currently 9.1 (one of the worst starting players in the league, but that is another conversation).  His opposing PER, from 82games, is 18.3.  With PER, it's important to keep in mind that the average player is supposed to be valued at 15.  So, we can reasonably state that Fisher is performing 6 "points" below average on offense, and his opposing point guard is only performing about 3.5 "points" above average on offense.

I understand why you'd be hesitant to take all my statistical mumbo jumbo at face value.  It's not hard to see why everyone focuses on how bad Derek Fisher is at the defensive end.  It's easy to observe.  Whenever the Lakers lose, it's because Fisher is getting beat off the dribble.  Point guard is the only real weakness the Lakers have on defense, and Fisher is the main offender.  We watch him get beat time and time again, watch other team's point guards have a big night every single night.  Meanwhlie, it's easy to lose Fisher's ineffectiveness on the offensive end, because he's not exactly alone in appearing to struggle on that side of the ball.  His suckiness blends in with the overall play, especially on the perimeter, so it's easy to lose him and not realize the effect he might be having.

If you refuse to accept or think about this prospect on a micro scale, think of it on a macro scale.  For all of Fisher's defensive failings, the Lakers have one of the best defenses in the league.  Fisher is surely that defense's weak spot, but if the team overall is top 3 even with that weakness, how big of a deal is it?  Meanwhile, the Laker offense is far below where it was last year.  That hardly falls on Fisher alone, as many players are performing below the standard they set for themselves a year ago.  But, a lack of outside shooting and poor shot selection/ball movement have been the main culprits in the disappearance of the Lakers beautiful offense from last year, and if we think about it, Fisher is responsible for his fair share of both of those problems.  All of this begs the overall question:  If Fisher is bad on offense and bad on defense, and his team is good on defense, but mediocre on offense, where exactly is he doing the team the most damage?

Poll
Do you think Derek Fisher hurts the Lakers more on offense or defense?
Offense
347 votes
Defense
427 votes
Neither, Fisher is the perfect triangle point guard
222 votes

996 votes | Poll has closed

2 recs  |  Comment 136 comments |

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Comments

Display:

Wild is actually be weak in the WALIT

Oh well, still sounds all right

pslakerfan: "Well if you can get in (the Hall of Fame) by being a scorer who doesn't rebound or play defense.....
Then I guess you can get in by being a rebounder and defender who can’t score." referring to Dennis Rodman

by KobeisGod on Mar 11, 2010 6:02 PM PST up reply actions  

I had to say wild, because if derek fishers lay ups are one thing

they are wild. he flails and hopes for a foul and it just looks…. wrong.

God bless D Fish though… we all love him.

by Jevon O on Mar 12, 2010 7:29 AM PST up reply actions  

stats made my head spin

Offensively , the Lakers have too many weapons for Derek to really hurt this team. Even if Derek shoots 30%, 30% of the time he is successful. Defensively, his short comings are apparent in just about every play. The Lakers are constantly having to compensate when Dfish’s man blows by him.
 Dish, UPS, Farmar, Ron and Kobe are all guilty of chucking up ill advised 3’s early in the shot clock. . Phil should start fining his players when they do that. With two 7 footers in the line up, the Players should be running the offense.

by keefer on Mar 11, 2010 9:23 AM PST reply actions  

I agree, but disagree

Offense should be ran through 7 footers, but teams adjust: Most recently, Pau and Bynum have had trouble handling the ball, which has resulted in TOs. Secondly, our bigs refuse to kick it back out when they are well defended in the post. These situations require our Gs to take open looks.

Defensively, I see too many break downs overall. Recently, it’s been our inability to close out the perimeter. Most of the blame goes on Bryant, but Fisher is guilty too. We need weak side defensive help when fisher is in the game. When the weak side flashes on penetration, Bryant or Fisher must revert to covering the perimeter. Instead, they sit in the key watching the penetrator flash by. This is inactive defense.

by 81 Witness on Mar 11, 2010 10:47 AM PST up reply actions  

Fisher has never been known for his speed. The only reason why Fisher’s lack of speed is more obvious now rather than in the three peat years was because Shaq clogged the paint. However, since this is a team game the rest of the responsibility must fall on LO, Gasol and Bynum. Especially because Bynum is a foul magnet. I would like to know if there is a stat that shows how long it takes for Bynum to commit his second foul and is taken out of the game. That impacts the team defensively in a big way. But that also doesn’t take away from the fact that there is problem with the PG position…

The only realistic solution is for Fisher to come off the bench. If LO made the adjustment and he is like 100 years younger than Fisher why couldn’t he make that sacrifice also? Obviously, the Lakers are not going to do that now but I feel that it will be the case next year. Either way, Fisher originally left the Lakers to GS because he wasn’t starting. If he is a leader he will do whats best for this team.

"If you want to find the dumbest guy in the room just find the first guy to tell you how smart he is." - JG

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Mar 11, 2010 9:39 AM PST reply actions  

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this:
The only realistic solution is for Fisher to come off the bench.

Trust me, I’m well aware of Fish’s faults, and he frustrates me as much as the next guy. But, Farmar and Shannon aren’t any better on defense, if at all. Farmar has never been a good defender, he gets beat just as much, and isn’t as strong. Shannon just seems to have no clue sometimes. I can;t count how many times he doesn’t fight through OR goes under a screen on a guy killing us from behind the arc. Fish is 35. What’s their excuse? Not only that, but I have a hard time handing over the starting gig to 2 guys whom haven’t been good enough to rip the job from Fish – especially if Fish has been bad – and are thinking about their future contract. It’s not like their financial status is guaranteed. They aren’t superstars with the guarantee of a big pay day to the team of their choosing. Their stats will dictate their next payday.

If Fish is going to be put on the bench, then I want it to be for Sasha.

http://twitter.com/wondahbap

by wondahbap on Mar 11, 2010 10:49 AM PST up reply actions  

I wouldnt mind Sasha starting

But imo Farmar has played better than Fish throughout the season and his recent slump is nothing more than matching Fisher’s day to day play…..I feel Farmar’s play would stay at a high enough level if given the opportunity to start. There’s alot to be said about being on the court with Kobe Gasol Bynum and Artest for the majority of the game rather than Brown Odom Gasol or Bynum and maybe Sasha…He gives us another guard on the court that can attack the D, break the defense down off the dribble and create shots for others, something Fish cant do..Fish would have a calming effect on the 2nd unit and would probably be able to tone Shannon down when he gets shot happy at times…

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 11, 2010 12:07 PM PST up reply actions  

I can't help but agree with this

sentimentality with Fisher notwithstanding. Particularly since Kobe is there it tear Farmar up if he f*cks up, so he will be controlled.

"E-Coaches are heavy in here tonight! Take E-Sasha and put him on the E-bench on your fantasy league, that’ll show him!" - Jevon O

by altree on Mar 11, 2010 8:13 PM PST up reply actions  

I think that is the hard part for me to decide on

and I think sasha would be a good fit. A writer from LA once printed a story and he mentioned that Phil likes the back court of Sasha and Kobe but Sasha’s shooting F’s it all up.

But if the option is Fisher vs Farmar I think Farmar’s is better on the offensive end than Fisher is on either end of the court. I think there is no doubt that Shannon is not the answer at PG.

"If you want to find the dumbest guy in the room just find the first guy to tell you how smart he is." - JG

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Mar 11, 2010 2:30 PM PST up reply actions  

I really want the Lakers to use their second round pick on Scottie Reynolds from Nova.

I think he would be a great fit for the triangle.

He has a strong body like fish, finishes really well around the rim, is shooting 40% from behind th arc this season, plays pretty solid defense and has some quickness to him. Im pretty sure hes projected to go in the late second round, and the Lakers have an earaly second round pick, if im not mistaken.

"I work my ass off every day in practice. How many other guys can say the same thing? Not many. I'm fighting against becoming soft. That's the worse thing you can say to a basketball player." - Dennis Rodman

by LakersFoEva on Mar 11, 2010 3:15 PM PST up reply actions  

i'm going to keep that name in mind and look him up on youtube

"If you want to find the dumbest guy in the room just find the first guy to tell you how smart he is." - JG

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Mar 11, 2010 3:23 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm liking him alot. And its abvious to me that Farmar is NOT the answer at PG.

He has similar size to Fisher. Reynolds is 6’2" 195 lbs, while Fish is 6’1" 210 pounds. He’s a 4 year senior and the leader on Nova. Im pretty sure he has started all 4 years. His ppg have gone up steadily every year, his rebounds, assists and steals have been roughly the same all 4 years. his A/T ratio has gone down each year. He has shot 83% from the free throw line, 48% from the field and 40% from behind the arc.

He has a real knack for finishing at the rim while taking on contact (kinda the opposite of Fisher). Not sure what they got on him on youtube, but im sure there is something. There isnt much PG talent, behind Wall, in this years draft. Unless we make some kinda trade/signing for a point guard, I think he is our best option.

"I work my ass off every day in practice. How many other guys can say the same thing? Not many. I'm fighting against becoming soft. That's the worse thing you can say to a basketball player." - Dennis Rodman

by LakersFoEva on Mar 11, 2010 3:36 PM PST up reply actions  

*** obvious

"I work my ass off every day in practice. How many other guys can say the same thing? Not many. I'm fighting against becoming soft. That's the worse thing you can say to a basketball player." - Dennis Rodman

by LakersFoEva on Mar 11, 2010 3:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Dam!! he looks good

but what are the chances that the Lakers could get someone like him? I’m clipping his highlights if you want to see them. Not bad!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSEpf30LWmw

"If you want to find the dumbest guy in the room just find the first guy to tell you how smart he is." - JG

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Mar 11, 2010 4:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Scottie Reynolds is a nice player...Kinda reminds me of allen ray

not sure how that would translate to the league and Phil likes Big guards and doesnt like to play rookies, so its a double edged sword

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 11, 2010 6:22 PM PST up reply actions  

that guy is awesome

"Just by the aura of D.J. Mbenga being there, the shot missed."

by shaqfor3 on Mar 11, 2010 4:40 PM PST up reply actions  

if he is that good consistently than he is probably a top 10 pick..

"If you want to find the dumbest guy in the room just find the first guy to tell you how smart he is." - JG

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Mar 11, 2010 8:15 PM PST up reply actions  

I dont know how high he is on other people's draft boards...

a 1st rounder maybe but he could possibly be there in the 2nd round…..Im hoping the Wiz void Arenas’ contract and we pick him up…..dreeeeeam dream dream

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 11, 2010 10:21 PM PST up reply actions  

He's on the second round bubble

Lack of elite athleticism and being a combo guard hurt him a lot. Yes, he’s worth a flier (with the 59th pick), but people are praising him a little too much.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 12, 2010 8:16 AM PST up reply actions  

I have looked at a couple draft boards, and....

most people have him aroudn the 75th best player available in the draft. He is the 7th or 8th best pg in the draft though (according to these boards). He should be around when the Lakers have their 59th pick.

"I work my ass off every day in practice. How many other guys can say the same thing? Not many. I'm fighting against becoming soft. That's the worse thing you can say to a basketball player." - Dennis Rodman

by LakersFoEva on Mar 15, 2010 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

but this is for next season

what about at present? What are our remedies, if any?

"E-Coaches are heavy in here tonight! Take E-Sasha and put him on the E-bench on your fantasy league, that’ll show him!" - Jevon O

by altree on Mar 11, 2010 8:16 PM PST up reply actions  

at best, in my opinion either sign a player who was bought out or waived before the March 1st deadline

or try Farmar as a starter or give him more minutes than Fisher. Nothing else has worked in terms of improved shooting from the PG position. But some may say that Farmar isn’t any better at shooting but he puts more pressure on defenses with his ability to attack the basket by using his speed which Fisher has never had the ability to do.

"If you want to find the dumbest guy in the room just find the first guy to tell you how smart he is." - JG

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Mar 11, 2010 10:43 PM PST up reply actions  

I dont think the Lakers are making a move....

they woudl have done so already. Fisher is going to be starting the rest of the year and Farmar’s minutes will not go up at all. What you currently see is probably gonna be what you get.

"I work my ass off every day in practice. How many other guys can say the same thing? Not many. I'm fighting against becoming soft. That's the worse thing you can say to a basketball player." - Dennis Rodman

by LakersFoEva on Mar 15, 2010 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fish wasn’t quick to begin with, but the speed he did have along with his size used to have an more effective impact. Now that he is losing a step it only magnifies the hole he creates for other PG’s to penetrate or set up an offensive set.
Would the mental impact of Fish coming off the bench impact the team more than his deficiencies as a starter?
I am not in panic mode about Fish, but he needs to find the kind of rhythm and shooting that Jason Kidd has had, come playoff time. I have no reason to doubt him at this point, but I think this year’s playoffs will be very telling for the Lakers moving forward.
Keep your head up Fish!

by Joshua S on Mar 11, 2010 11:42 AM PST up reply actions  

You know what...

Fish has the easiest job on the court…He doesnt have traditional PG duties, so his only job is to Make open shots and play defense….In all Honesty his responsibilities end there..If He was shooting at the % he was last year we wouldnt be so hard on his defense..He’s not, so what does he actually contribute to the team? Leadership? We have a pretty veteran team im sure someone else could fill that role….He’s Clutch? In the past maybe but notsomuch this year…Beyond that he is nothing more than Ammo in a PG’s body getting playing time he doesnt deserve…..

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 11, 2010 10:14 AM PST reply actions  

waveocean,

I better Never hear you complain about Mo Williams or Delonte West ever again, no matter how many shotguns Delonte carries to the game on the back of his ninja, or how many KFC rap songs he makes while smoking marajuana in the parking at his favorite establishment.

FYI: You may continue to complain about Daniel “Boobie” Gibson. He is your Jordan Farmar. So much potential… but so little consistent return.

by Jevon O on Mar 11, 2010 10:48 AM PST up reply actions  

The Problem with Stats

I am impressed with C.A., Hollinger, Dwyer and others who try so hard to quantify every aspect of the NBA, but in the end these numbers only produce more articles about minutia stats, Fantasy League nerds and Vegas odds makers.
The players and coaches don’t take stock in stats on this level. At least not in practical application. No matter how detailed the numbers get they can never quantify team chemistry, competitive drive and mojo, which players absolutely care about.
I understand writers need an angle to the pieces they write, but it sure makes for a dizzying way to pass time until the playoffs.

by Joshua S on Mar 11, 2010 11:32 AM PST reply actions  

Daryl Morey

/thread

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 11, 2010 12:27 PM PST up reply actions  

...yeah, they're not that good

Considering that they have their best player out for the year with a major injury and they’ve played .500 ball with a roster that shouldn’t be able to put together any type of respectable offense. All this naturally ignoring how Morey has found fantastic value in the draft, fleeced teams on trades, and made superb free agent signings.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 11, 2010 1:57 PM PST up reply actions  

But seriously, dismissing stats because players and coaches don't like it

Is silly, primarily because it’s the domain of GMs, scouts, and personnel evaluators, and for good reason. The coach brings the practical side of it (does this guy fit into our greater scheme, does he have good attitude, etc.) but trying to say that stats are worthless because of this is completely wrong, as the success of statheads in the league has indicated. The metrics that are currently out there aren’t as fleshed out and honed as in baseball, but there’s been remarkable progress made, and looking down on what more or less is becoming an integral part of player evaluation isn’t a constructive stance.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 11, 2010 12:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Well Said

This stuff is the future. Understanding it isn’t necessary to be a basketball fan, but anyone who thinks this is angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin stuff for bloggers is incorrect. NBA franchises are hugely interested in it and are increasingly devoted ever more resources to their analytics departments. These are real-world evaluation techniques that aren’t going away.

Twitter feed: @dexterfishmore

by DexterFishmore on Mar 11, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not so sure I would put C.A. with Hollinger and Dwyer.

It’s not something he usually does.

http://twitter.com/wondahbap

by wondahbap on Mar 11, 2010 12:45 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not so sure I would either

Those guys are what you would call successful.

by C.A. Clark on Mar 11, 2010 12:54 PM PST up reply actions  

no

those guys are what id call major laker haters, or non kobe enthusiasts. keep up the good analysis C.A.

"i always tell the truth..even when i lie."

by j squared on Mar 11, 2010 12:58 PM PST up reply actions  

those guys are what id call major laker haters, or non kobe enthusiast

Are we really still on this? It’s one thing to call Bill Simmons a “hater.” That’s fine. It’s entirely another thing to apply an epithet like that to Dwyer or Hollinger, both of which write from an analytical viewpoint. It’s one thing to disagree with their analysis, but saying they’re “haters” for disagreeing with your preconceptions is honestly, a really lazy way of looking at it. Now, it doesn’t stop you from calling them a bad writer if that’s where you’re going, but let’s stop with the “hater” mindset.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 11, 2010 1:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I give Hollinger credit because he really is a numbers guy. Right or wrong he sticks by his guns, (while boring some of us to tears) I wouldn’t call him a hater he just sticks to what he thinks the numbers are saying.
As for KD, he tries to be too many things to too many readers. He has clear bias which he tries to shield with an unsophisticated understanding of the stats. Hater is an over used word and I’m not sure it applies even to Dwyer.

by Joshua S on Mar 11, 2010 1:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Dwyer's problem is that he goes away from what he does best

Which is unfettered analysis that you see in his BtBS posts, which are usually pretty good. Whenever he slips too much into the amateur statistician role or the polemic role, it gets bad really fast.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 11, 2010 2:00 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't understand how KD ever gets labeled a Laker hater

I guess it’s because he doesn’t genuflect to Kobe four times a day, as many people would prefer. But honestly, he writes more nice things about the Lakers than we do.

Twitter feed: @dexterfishmore

by DexterFishmore on Mar 11, 2010 3:58 PM PST up reply actions  

amen

"E-Coaches are heavy in here tonight! Take E-Sasha and put him on the E-bench on your fantasy league, that’ll show him!" - Jevon O

by altree on Mar 11, 2010 8:19 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think he's a Laker hater

But I know he doesn’t enjoy Kobe’s brand of basketball; it frustrates him.

That said, Kobe frustrates everyone sometimes, including me, and theres something extremely difficult in coaching a guy who takes the worst (statistically) shot the most often of all of his shots, and shoots the ball more than anyone else on the team almost every game. He’d be out of the league if that shot didn’t go in so damn much.

by Jevon O on Mar 12, 2010 7:33 AM PST up reply actions  

Ive learned that what the majority of us call bad shots arent so bad for him

The degree of difficulty for him isnt on the same level as it would be for most of the league….His shot selection is a whole nother story tho..The pull up 3’s when we should run the offense and extend the lead gets me every time, and you can see it coming a mile away

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 12, 2010 10:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Yep, I learn a long time ago that a player can have the best stats in the world but only one player or teams WINS.

If a person played any sport and worried about their stats 10-1 they didn’t win much, it is all score board baby.

LA Sports is what keep me off the streets and out of trouble, thanks to all the teams Rams, Dodgers, Lakers, USC sports and the Love of Tennis.

by so.cal.native1952 on Mar 12, 2010 2:39 AM PST up reply actions  

C.A. Tops Both

I’ll take C.A.‘s analysis over Hollinger’s and definitely over Dwyer’s! Sorry to lump you in with them C.A. (especially with KD).

Ben R: I agree that it’s a GM/Office job to do the evaluation of metrics and stats if that’s their thing, but does it really have a place outside of the executive level especially on blogs and sports sites? My tax return might be interesting but that doesn’t mean I’m going to post it and analyze it.
My intent isn’t to write off stats so much as it was to say that stats have their place, but there are too many articles being written for the sake of filling space while we wait for the real fun in the playoffs.

by Joshua S on Mar 11, 2010 1:12 PM PST reply actions  

...so because only GMs should care about it, we shouldn't?

Why should we care about trades then? Obviously just GM work. Statistics holds a place in pretty much every level of evaluation, and should be considered alongside other work. That you’re criticizing sites for using statistics as part of their analysis is just…bizarre. I’m completely confused as to where you’re coming from. Trying to compare basketball statistics — an interesting and engaging field of analysis — to your tax return is also completely off.

If you’re criticizing the multitude articles being written about statistics, I’m also not sure where you’re coming from. To me, it’s an indication of the breadth and increasing place that statistical analysis has, which is fun for me mainly because of the increase in written material I can digest. If you’re referring to Hollinger’s daily PER Diems, he’s being paid to write them. If anything, give the man credit for touching on a pretty large set of topics.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 11, 2010 1:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Gotta disagree

Obviously this one hits a little close to home since I wrote this particular “space filler”, but stats and their analysis absolutely have a place on blogs. In this case, the blogs are actually ahead of the curve. There have been cases of bloggers parleying stats work into jobs as NBA stats guys, and stats are a major reason why most of the best, most original, NBA writing is happening on blogs.

In the end, stats pieces get filed under “If you’re not in interested, don’t read it.”

by C.A. Clark on Mar 11, 2010 1:23 PM PST up reply actions  

the stats

no matter how it bogs us down, buttresses one’s arguments. So love ’em or hate ’em, it will be used, and not just to fill space

"E-Coaches are heavy in here tonight! Take E-Sasha and put him on the E-bench on your fantasy league, that’ll show him!" - Jevon O

by altree on Mar 11, 2010 8:21 PM PST up reply actions  

If Fisher was still hitting shots, we wouldn't care that much about this problem

I think that’s a good way to look at it. We have a top three defense despite Fisher being completely unable to stay in front of his man, which is testament to how good we are at the other positions, and in practically every big game this season, it’s been our offense that has let us down. If Fisher was shooting 40% from three, we would still be cajoling Fisher for being a defensive liability, but we would care less because we would have a top seven offense. Spacing is so, so important to the triangle, and the loss of that spacing really hurts our bigs’ productivity.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 11, 2010 1:31 PM PST reply actions  

This
Spacing is so, so important to the triangle, and the loss of that spacing really hurts our bigs’ productivity.

That’s telling ’em, Ben. I keep mentioning this in the game threads, as I notice it often.

"E-Coaches are heavy in here tonight! Take E-Sasha and put him on the E-bench on your fantasy league, that’ll show him!" - Jevon O

by altree on Mar 11, 2010 8:25 PM PST up reply actions  

and it's aggravated

by our bad outside shooting.

"E-Coaches are heavy in here tonight! Take E-Sasha and put him on the E-bench on your fantasy league, that’ll show him!" - Jevon O

by altree on Mar 11, 2010 8:26 PM PST up reply actions  

On Point

C.A., I definitely agree that the best, most original writing is coming out of blogs. That’s the main reason I joined SS&R. There is a “purity” to the breakdown here that doesn’t have the spin of other sports sites. Sure we see things here through purple and gold lenses a bit, but you guys have been so well written and the analysis of game play and strategy along with entertaining commentary is second to none as far as the Lakers go.

Some guys live for knowing that 10 seconds into the shot clock, on every third possession if your PG takes a right-side jumper 12’ out his odds of making it increase by 34%, but it’s not my thing and think most fans, even savvy ones, would agree.
Every once in a while is fine, but it seems like we’re see more and more of it. Sour grapes from me I guess.
Props to Ben R for the well crafted jab. I can digest stats too, but perhaps your threshold for tolerating minutia is just better than mine. Good comments, guys!

by Joshua S on Mar 11, 2010 1:44 PM PST reply actions  

is there a difference

between “minutia” and “minutae”?

"E-Coaches are heavy in here tonight! Take E-Sasha and put him on the E-bench on your fantasy league, that’ll show him!" - Jevon O

by altree on Mar 11, 2010 8:27 PM PST up reply actions  

cuase I think

minutae is more apt

"E-Coaches are heavy in here tonight! Take E-Sasha and put him on the E-bench on your fantasy league, that’ll show him!" - Jevon O

by altree on Mar 11, 2010 8:28 PM PST up reply actions  

On stats: It's nice to create a system of stats that helps keep you employed

It’s kinda what they’re doing, they use it and run with it because they’re vested in it as well. The dude at the Ford dealership pushes Fords because… get this… he makes money for doing that. It’s his job.

These guys push PER, win/loss, etc to such an extent because they benefit from crunching the numbers.

Basketball is not Baseball, there’s too many other nuances to the game. I mean, the “assist” stat itself is up to the statistician recording the game. We’ve all heard about the inconsistencies and such of that stat.

I’m not saying ignore stats, but I’m saying to lock onto stats as the be-all-end-all of basketball analysis is pure silly.

Guess what stats tell us guys?

Lebron James is a really, really good basketball player. He likes to dunk, and drive it inside.

Kobe Bryant is a really, really good basketball player, he has a nice inside game and has been scoring well in clutch situations.

Josh Powell doesn’t play much, he’s not very good at shooting the ball, he likes to foul…

Hey, that’s all shit I see every night I watch the game! I’m not constructing a line up for the next home game for the Dodgers, where I need to know who bats better against left-handed pitchers from Oklahoma named Bruce on Thursday nights when the moon is half full. That’s baseball man, not basketball.

We already know what the stats are telling us, and we’re not really going to use the stats to change anything in our line up. That’s why it’s a wash.

Can you imagine this conversation?

Phil: “Pau, you’re going to sit tonight because, according to 82games.com you’re not quite at the level of win/loss/PER we’re going to need against Amare tonight. Benga is going to start in your place”.

Pau: “Que?”

DJ: “Daco?”

whatever

by 99bc99 on Mar 11, 2010 1:47 PM PST reply actions  

Except that this very piece is an example of when stats are telling you something that isn't obvious

There aren’t many people out there saying that Fisher’s offense is more of a problem than his defense, but that’s what stats are telling us in this situation.

Are the stats right, or are our eyes? I’m not sure one way or the other. Yes, most of the time stats and observance are in agreement. That’s how you know that stats can be informative too. But when they aren’t, that is exactly how stats can be the most useful. Does it mean that if stats disagrees with what you think, you should automatically trust the stats? Absolutely not. But, at the very least, if stats tell you one thing and observance tells you something else, you might want give things a closer look.

by C.A. Clark on Mar 11, 2010 2:04 PM PST up reply actions  

No I understood that point of your post completely

But I think taking the big picture, we can just say, “Derek’s play this year has been hurting the Lakers”.

Now is it interesting that he’s not hurting us as much on the defensive end than the offensive? I guess, but we still know that he’s not been producing. Now we know that he’s not been producing and has been shooting too early in the clock, stuff we’ve all commented on in the blogs, etc.

I guess I just went on a tangent of sorts with Basketball stats as a whole. This was an excellent post and my response wasn’t meant to minimize your analysis, but more my reaction to basketball stats, and the people who use them to bad mouth Kobe, etc.

by 99bc99 on Mar 11, 2010 2:14 PM PST up reply actions  

No, we can't just say that

For one reason, a lot of people don’t get that Fish is hurting the Lakers. There are plenty of apologists who think that his “leadership” and “clutchness” vindicate his play, no matter how bad the numbers are. C.A. performs a valuable service by documenting in an objective way exactly how bad his play has been. It’s another salvo in the war against ignorance.

And “stats aren’t the be all, end all” is a pure straw man argument. No one, not a single person in the analyst community, believes that or thinks that stats are a substitute, rather than a complement, to scouting observations. Claiming they do simply betrays ignorance about the current state of hoops discourse.

Also, if “will this post actually affect lineup decisions by the Lakers?” is the editorial standard, there probably wouldn’t be many articles on this site. I don’t know if there’s been some kind of misunderstanding, but we don’t run the Los Angeles Lakers. I’m sorry if at some point we gave the mistaken impression that we do.

There will be many more posts like this on SS&R, believe me.

Twitter feed: @dexterfishmore

by DexterFishmore on Mar 11, 2010 3:02 PM PST up reply actions  

It's true

I have to watch my blood pressure when we get on this topic.

Twitter feed: @dexterfishmore

by DexterFishmore on Mar 11, 2010 3:14 PM PST up reply actions  

lol

ticked off at Derek Fisher, or re: stats?

"E-Coaches are heavy in here tonight! Take E-Sasha and put him on the E-bench on your fantasy league, that’ll show him!" - Jevon O

by altree on Mar 11, 2010 8:31 PM PST up reply actions  

I wonder when people will stop factoring in his "clutchness" as a reason to keep him in the lineup?

Michael Jordan was Clutch also but i doubt the Bobcats would want him to suit up and join the team…Fisher should be riding the pine and definitely not resigned next year, even at the vet’s minimum…I’ll take my chances with Joe Crawford lol he cant be that much worse

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 11, 2010 4:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Other than.........

Hollinger, you mean?

Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."

by pslakerfan on Mar 11, 2010 8:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Hrmm, so I offended?

Well, not my intention. I’m sure my opinion was probably a bit crass, especially as I admitted my posts went on a tangent. Either way, I will admit my “ignorance about the current state of hoops discourse”. I’m not a stats guy. I enjoy the game, enjoy the flow, and again, stat’s isn’t my thing.

Oh yeah, to recap, so Derek Fisher’s play is hurting the Lakers? !!!

by 99bc99 on Mar 11, 2010 11:34 PM PST up reply actions  

I heard somewhere Fisher is actually well aware of Laker fans wanting him to a) lose his starting spot and b) retire.

So sometimes, i feel when he takes those terrible shots he is just trying to prove to us and himself that he can still play the young mans game that is NBA basketball, especially at the 1. Sadly, this has only catalyzed our malcontent with Fisher. The guy is starting to resemble Robert Horry in his later years shooting wildly, and getting out-ran on defense.

The sad thing is for the lakers, is that Farmar and Brown arent exactly make a strong case for themselves to replace fisher. Sure they have a great game every once in a while, but its almost like a crapshoot with them. I just pray we get our shizz together before april

In Kobe we trust!

by robi s on Mar 11, 2010 1:51 PM PST reply actions  

anyone know what happened with PAGFL?

is he back? or still banned?

any more news on him?

what happened to that fanpost about him?

by matthewmafa on Mar 11, 2010 2:23 PM PST reply actions  

I'm not sure

"If you want to find the dumbest guy in the room just find the first guy to tell you how smart he is." - JG

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Mar 11, 2010 2:31 PM PST up reply actions  

lol...he needs help..

"If you want to find the dumbest guy in the room just find the first guy to tell you how smart he is." - JG

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Mar 11, 2010 3:24 PM PST up reply actions  

welcome back pagfl

we only love you for your magic johnson avatar.

just sayin’

by Jevon O on Mar 12, 2010 7:38 AM PST up reply actions  

lol..jerk!

"If you want to find the dumbest guy in the room just find the first guy to tell you how smart he is." - JG

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Mar 13, 2010 8:26 PM PST up reply actions  

thnx btw..

"If you want to find the dumbest guy in the room just find the first guy to tell you how smart he is." - JG

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Mar 13, 2010 8:26 PM PST up reply actions  

hah, ha-ha-ha!

"E-Coaches are heavy in here tonight! Take E-Sasha and put him on the E-bench on your fantasy league, that’ll show him!" - Jevon O

by altree on Mar 11, 2010 8:32 PM PST up reply actions  

on a more serious not

Big, big props to C.A.

"E-Coaches are heavy in here tonight! Take E-Sasha and put him on the E-bench on your fantasy league, that’ll show him!" - Jevon O

by altree on Mar 11, 2010 8:33 PM PST up reply actions  

on a more serious note

Bib, big props to C.A.

"E-Coaches are heavy in here tonight! Take E-Sasha and put him on the E-bench on your fantasy league, that’ll show him!" - Jevon O

by altree on Mar 11, 2010 8:33 PM PST up reply actions  

he's not very good on offense or defense.

"I work my ass off every day in practice. How many other guys can say the same thing? Not many. I'm fighting against becoming soft. That's the worse thing you can say to a basketball player." - Dennis Rodman

by LakersFoEva on Mar 11, 2010 4:00 PM PST up reply actions  

That's putting it nicely...

Ammo could provide the same level of production as Fisher and maybe even at the same position

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 11, 2010 4:02 PM PST up reply actions  

and to think the Lakers couldnt find a single player in the league to trade for ammo's expiring contract

Not one that could provide even a lil bit of something on offense or defense…..No D leaguer veteran or otherwise unknown that can at least hit open shots, defense is optional….hindsight is 20/20

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 11, 2010 4:07 PM PST reply actions  

I thought the exact same thing until I started looking at the trade rumors who seemed to of had some validity

The Lakers were looking to do a trade only if Sasha was involved because anyone who the Lakers signed they would be paying double for. That is the reason the Lakers didn’t get Hinrich because a third team had to get involved so they could get Sasha but because sasha sucks big balls no one wanted to risk taking on that contract. But next year that will change. I might be wrong but doesn’t sasha’s contrace become and expiring contract? He would be more valuable in that way. On top of that Ammos contract will fall off the books. The one contract that I think continues to effect the Lakers is LUke’s.

"If you want to find the dumbest guy in the room just find the first guy to tell you how smart he is." - JG

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Mar 11, 2010 4:42 PM PST up reply actions  

If im not mistaken both Fish and Farmar's contracts are up at the end of the year...

And seriously doubt Farmar is gonna re-sign with the Lakers, so we might be left with no other options besides Fish at point unless we make some kind of deal in the offseason…That hurts my head to even think about it…..

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 11, 2010 5:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Farmar is a restricted free agent

So the Lakers have the option of tendering a qualifying offer in the amount of $2.9 million and then matching any other team’s bid. I’d be surprised if they don’t tender the QO.

Fish will be unrestricted.

Twitter feed: @dexterfishmore

by DexterFishmore on Mar 11, 2010 6:00 PM PST up reply actions  

aaah ok

I wonder how much Farmar wants to stay? No need in signing a disgruntled player if he doesnt

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 11, 2010 6:17 PM PST up reply actions  

If we tender the QO, he really doesn't have a choice in the matter

Also, remember that for a team to make an offer, they’re essentially tying up a portion of their cap space (or their MLE) for those seven days that the Lakers have to match the offer, which can be a death knell in a summer with so many free agents and so many teams with cap space. In that light, Farmar isn’t going to get an offer until the end of the summer, and even then, he might just take the QO to come back a year and become an unrestricted free agent next year.

If we want to keep him long-term, I wouldn’t pay more than $4 million/year. Given Buss’ current spending preferences, I’d say Farmar will get little more than $3 million/year if he wants a long-term deal.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 12, 2010 8:24 AM PST up reply actions  

Good Point

The fact remains that it doesnt do well for team chemistry to have a player that wants to go elsewhere…I can definitely see that happening with him, especially this year with Fisher playing like crap and he still doesnt get an extended look as a starter. Doesnt Brown have a player option this year or next year?

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 12, 2010 10:13 AM PST up reply actions  

He has a player option for next year

I could make an argument either way for him exercising it or not, although I’d wager he probably wants to stay. Fisher is on the way out (or at the very least, to a third point guard role for the minimum), Farmar will have his contract status in the air, and that leaves him with a significant role if he wants it.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 12, 2010 12:59 PM PST up reply actions  

It'll be interesting to see if the Lakers bring Fisher back.

And if he does return, would he retain his role as starting point guard? I like Steve Blake, but there is competition for his services in the form of the Orlando Magic. The Lakers could go the four year college point guard route by drafting somebody like Greivis Vasquez of the Maryland Terrapins or Jerome Dyson of UCONN. Marcus Banks of the Raptors might be bought out and could become a member the Lakers. The Lakers had interest in him before the deadline…..or vice versa.

I see no reason for Fisher to be starting next year. None. Zilch. Nada.

by E-ROC on Mar 11, 2010 4:48 PM PST reply actions  

I like Greivis Vasquez

saw him in a few CBS NCAA games on tv.

"Just by the aura of D.J. Mbenga being there, the shot missed."

by shaqfor3 on Mar 11, 2010 5:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Vasquez really intrigues me

The big problem is his athleticism. He had the worst vertical of any prospect at the combine last year, but his shooting has improved this year and his passing is up to par. Would be worth a flyer with the 59th pick if it came to that.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 11, 2010 5:53 PM PST up reply actions  

The Lakers have two second round draft choices. They received the second one from the Grizzlies.

I like Greivis Vasquez with the Grizzlies pick and Lazar Hayward with the last pick.

by E-ROC on Mar 11, 2010 5:57 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd take Tyshawn Taylor with the Grizzlies' pick if he declares

As for the 59th pick…hell, I’d take Scheyer. Take a flyer on anyone with with a stroke.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 11, 2010 6:09 PM PST up reply actions  

True, Scheyer can flat out shoot it, AND has played point guard for the Blue Devils this season.

I don’t know if Taylor will last that long given his potential, but he certainly plays good defense. I like him too. Charles Garcia is intriguing even though he’s a big. Lots of potential; meh work ethic. Alade Aminu has a world of potential too, though he’s not in this draft. He’s in the D-League.

by E-ROC on Mar 11, 2010 6:20 PM PST up reply actions  

I think he's slipped out of the first round

Although yeah, it would be hard for a team not to take him before us in the second round given his upside. Charles Garcia looks interesting, although his off-court problems worry me and if we’re going to take prospects of any kind, we’ll guards.

At this point, my pipe dream is that we buy/trade for a late first round pick and take Bledsoe, but altogether, solving our point guard problem is going to be quite the problem this summer. That said, we can’t really go anywhere but up at the position, so that’s a nice way to look at it.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 11, 2010 9:52 PM PST up reply actions  

My pipe dream is the Wiz void Arenas contract and he comes to the Lakers.....

He fits Phil’s prototypical Guard to the T…..

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 11, 2010 10:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Impossible for them to void it at this point

Unless he receives a significant sentence, which is unlikely. In any case, I have a hard time seeing him being disciplined enough to stay within the system, although yes, he nominally fits Phil’s point guard mold.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 12, 2010 12:26 AM PST up reply actions  

what makes you think they will sign anybody?

and not trade the picks for cash considerations. mitch do the right thing and draft somebody

YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD YES!
www.reverbnation.com/czheckproductions

by Czheck on Mar 11, 2010 8:59 PM PST up reply actions  

well we dont have a 1st round pick

and the money isnt guaranteed for a 2nd round pick

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 11, 2010 10:12 PM PST up reply actions  

good point

lol

YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD YES!
www.reverbnation.com/czheckproductions

by Czheck on Mar 11, 2010 11:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Im LIking Scottie Reynolds of Nova.

"I work my ass off every day in practice. How many other guys can say the same thing? Not many. I'm fighting against becoming soft. That's the worse thing you can say to a basketball player." - Dennis Rodman

by LakersFoEva on Mar 15, 2010 8:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

I say Fisher hurts us more on offense

Our offense has been mediocre this year, and it doesnt help us when Fisher is pulling up for jumpshots with 21 seconds left on the shot clock. Its poor shot selection like that which leads to offensive droughts over the course of a game. Unfortunately, Farmar and Shannon havent played that well this year either. Both like Fisher, dont move the ball very well and arent great outside shooters. But if I had to choose, I would give Farmar the starting position over Brown because Shannon is really more of a shooting guard than a point guard and takes a few too many fadeaways for a guy not named Kobe. Farmar has shown us his potential like in 2008 and I think he can return to that level of play again with more minutes or as a starter. I know Farmar isnt much of a replacement over Fisher, but at some point we need to make a switch. Derek is 35 and cannot bring much more to the table at that age.

"Just by the aura of D.J. Mbenga being there, the shot missed."

by shaqfor3 on Mar 11, 2010 5:15 PM PST reply actions  

My qualm with this poll

I don’t think Fisher necessarily hurts us more on offense or defense, but at the same time I don’t think he’s the perfect point guard for the triangle.

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

by Justin N. on Mar 11, 2010 5:49 PM PST reply actions  

?

Are you saying he hurts us equally on both offense and defense?

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 11, 2010 5:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes

On defense he is a step slow, but he’s also almost guaranteed to force at least a couple turnovers a game with all his offensive fouls drawn because he’s smart as hell. He also isn’t terrible when his man is relatively close to him in age. On offense, his shot has been struggling and he can’t finish around the rim, but he is still a definite threat from 3 point range and on top of that he runs the triangle better than anyone else we have. His ability to get the ball in the post and make the right pass is important.

He does good and bad things on both ends of the floor and I can’t quantify where he hurts us the most, so I’m not going to pick offense or defense. I don’t want to pick the third option either though, because I think D.Fish is far from the perfect pg for our system (maybe 5-6 years ago).

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

by Justin N. on Mar 11, 2010 10:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Good poll question, C.A

My answer is 50/50, Fisher can hurt them both ways at times, on offense because he’s mostly just a spot up shooter, he can not drive to the hoop and create fouls on the other teams bigs around the rim like most PG’s so when his shot is off, the offense is likely struggling and Kobe adds more to his list of things to do cause no one else seems to have anything going for them. On defense because he no longer has quickness, can’t stay in front of his man so laker teammates have to always be mindful of the man Fisher is guarding and help out ALOT and that gets the Lakers into scrammbling mode which hurts the defense.

There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.

by BrittneyM on Mar 11, 2010 8:02 PM PST reply actions  

YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD YES!
www.reverbnation.com/czheckproductions

by Czheck on Mar 11, 2010 8:58 PM PST reply actions  

ok i know we have PG issues this year

BUT i would love to get Arenas at a cheaper price if the wizards cut him or voided his contract next year…His D isnt great but his ability on offense imo negates any defensive liability he might or might not be

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 11, 2010 10:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Why does jersey #0 even exist?

Who would want to wear something like that? Leon Powe mercifully wears #44 now.

by WaveOcean on Mar 11, 2010 11:16 PM PST up reply actions  

how is Leon powe playing so far?

"If you want to find the dumbest guy in the room just find the first guy to tell you how smart he is." - JG

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Mar 11, 2010 11:24 PM PST up reply actions  

I have a question?

I could be wrong but do we have a player overseas? I keep thinkin we drafted a guy but he didnt come to the states to play

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 11, 2010 11:09 PM PST reply actions  

well put dex

YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD YES!
www.reverbnation.com/czheckproductions

by Czheck on Mar 11, 2010 11:30 PM PST up reply actions  

hahahahahahhahaha

Thats a mod who gets straight to the thick of things!

I can see your next Derek Fisher article.

Derek Fisher: An analysis by Dexter Fishmore
-—————————————————————————————-

He blows.

-twitter feed @dexterfishmore

by Jevon O on Mar 12, 2010 7:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Well a lot of people didn't Harper too, but it all come down to this FOLKS.

Phil Jackson (yes that 12 million dollar dude) does the coaching and thats who he wants to start, so just watch the games and live with it.

LA Sports is what keep me off the streets and out of trouble, thanks to all the teams Rams, Dodgers, Lakers, USC sports and the Love of Tennis.

by so.cal.native1952 on Mar 12, 2010 2:31 AM PST reply actions  

I so so so so

second that!

Magic made me a Laker fan.

by thestuff01 on Mar 12, 2010 8:49 AM PST up reply actions  

Just because Phil does the coaching and makes 12 million

doesnt mean he is above criticism or being questioned about some of the moves he makes….His track record speaks for itself, but the loyalty he shows with Fish is baffling at this point in the season and in his career.

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 12, 2010 10:17 AM PST up reply actions  

When you sign his Pay Checks than what you say and think will matter, wake up and smell the I don't own the team roses.

Believe me Phil or Laker Management aren’t listening.

LA Sports is what keep me off the streets and out of trouble, thanks to all the teams Rams, Dodgers, Lakers, USC sports and the Love of Tennis.

by so.cal.native1952 on Mar 13, 2010 7:32 AM PST up reply actions  

That's a really poor viewpoint

So basically he’s exempt from all criticism because what we say has no effect on what he does. Well, duh. Wouldn’t be much point in this post or this discourse if that was the requirement for it. It doesn’t mean he’s infallible, and certainly doesn’t mean that he’s exempt from criticism. To say otherwise would be pretty much spitting in the face of what this blog tries to do.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 14, 2010 1:44 AM PST up reply actions  

WHATEVER-----------------KID

LA Sports is what keep me off the streets and out of trouble, thanks to all the teams Rams, Dodgers, Lakers, USC sports and the Love of Tennis.

by so.cal.native1952 on Mar 15, 2010 5:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

And if anyone doubts the increasing importance of statistics in the league

Observe:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/nbas-statistical-revolution-bringing-real-change-more-winning.php

That includes us folks.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 12, 2010 9:02 AM PST reply actions  

I like Stats and they help me prove a point more often than not

when i decide to jump in the ring with Laker Haters who just say anything because they dislike them…..Men Lie women lie,numbers dont lie.

Kobe isnt good....He's just better than your favorite player

by EmmCeee on Mar 12, 2010 10:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Regarding the PER part: To be fair this is a point guard’s league… It’s the position with the most talent right now (Along with SF)… Because there is more talent, the average per would most likely be a little bit higher than 15.

by Atomsk on Mar 12, 2010 4:44 PM PST reply actions  

PER is standardized with "average" being about 15

Position is largely irrelevant.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Mar 12, 2010 5:19 PM PST up reply actions  

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