Is 70 wins more likely than another championship?
I've been awful quiet around these parts as of late. I'm not really a big fan of the NBA offseason. I do my due diligence and pay attention to it all, but I don't like commenting on negotiations and trade rumors. However, the NBA landscape is looking a lot clearer these days, especially at the top. So I come back to you now to pose a question that, on the surface, may sound ridiculous.
Could it be harder for the Lakers to repeat as champions than it would be to win 70 games next year?
Before I try to convince you of the validity of that question, a caveat. This entire conversation ignores the possibility of a major injury (missing 15+ games) to a major player (any of the top 5). I know this is a huge leap of faith, and is the main reason why any team would be hard pressed to win 70 games. I know it is unlikely to happen. I'm choosing to ignore it because trying to predict if and when a major player goes down is the trade of an Oracle, not a blogger. Besides, as Boston found out last year, injuries can just as easily derail a championship run as it can a highly successful regular season. So, understand that when I talk of the possibility of 70 wins for the Lakers, I'm already assuming that health won't be a major issue, and I know just how astute that assumption is.
Right, now that the rules are set, here's my case for why 70 wins could be more likely than a 2nd straight parade:
The Lakers won 65 games last year ... and had plenty of room for improvement.
The crux of my argument. Last year, the Lakers won 65 games, and were constantly under-performing while doing so. A few bench players took a step (or three) backwards, even as the Lakers were beating everybody under the sun because the starters were so dominant. Jordan Farmar and Sasha Vujacic were the main culprits here. Farmar had a significant early injury, came back too soon, and was actually a detriment to the team for most of the year. He only began to show signs of his old self in the limited minutes he got in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Vujacic completely fell off the wagon. While his shooting wasn't nearly as bad as you think (for many players, especially outside shooters, an eFG of 49% is OK), it was a far cry from the Machine of 2007-2008, and if his actual shooting numbers aren't terrible, they don't tell the whole story. Vujacic was constantly putting up shots that made every fan cringe. Luke Walton also took a step back, although not nearly as dramatic as the other two players. The significant point here is that all three of these guys are young players. They are at a point in their career where they should be improving, not regressing. Meanwhile, Andrew Bynum started the season slow, began turning into a real powerhouse, and then promptly lost half the season to injury again. Simply a full healthy year of Bynum would be quite an improvement over last year's squad. Further, Shannon Brown will be able to pick up the slack if Farmar falters again, and even Sasha's role could possibly be filled by Adam Morrison if he can't find the stroke. Improved bench play won't win you a whole lot of playoff games, but during the regular season, a strong bench can be a huge difference maker in turning close games into blowouts.
Outside of themselves, the Lakers division is weaaaak.
Besides the Lakers, the Pacific division is the worst division in basketball, and it's not even close. The Pacific was the only division to have only one playoff team last year. It was the only division to have two teams win less than 20 games. And with a winning percentage just under 43%, including the Lakers' stellar record, the division won 6% less games than the next worst division. The only other decent team in the division (the Suns) appear to have gotten worse due to Shaq's departure, and another year on the legs of Nash and Grant Hill, and the only truly significant addition in the entire division was Blake Griffin. The Lakers could very well go undefeated in their own division.
The NBA's power consolidation works in favor of more Lakers wins.
The motto of the NBA offseason has been "The rich get richer". There has been a lot of power consolidation in the NBA this offseason, with all the teams which were contenders last year making major plays to be better this year. Shaq's in Cleveland, VC is in Orlando, Sheed is in Boston, and Richard Jefferson is in SA. You'll notice only one of those teams is in the West, which means the Lakers will only have to deal with the NBA elite twice each, save San Antonio.
Meanwhile "the poor get poorer". Small market teams are doing everything they can to shed salary, either because they want to be ready for the free agent bonanza of 2010, or because they are hemorrhaging money faster than an American automaker, and a majority of the really bad NBA teams are in the Western Conference. I'm not going to get into whether the East or the West is better, because the argument completely changes based on your sample size of teams. But the West had 6 of the 7 teams which did not win 30 games last year, and for my money, only LAC (Griffin) and OKC (Durant's continued growth) may be noticeably better than last year. Add to that list the incredibly sad story that is the Houston Rockets, and you've got quite a few games against piss-poor competition. Lots of games vs. really bad teams = lots of wins even if your team is having an off-night.
The Lakers' nemesis got a lot weaker
Only three teams managed to beat the Lakers twice in the regular season last year. The Orlando Magic (eventual NBA Finalists), the Portland Trailblazers (both losses in Portland, one of the toughest venues in the league, and always a sore spot for L.A.), and ... the mighty Charlotte Bobcats. Any Lakers fan shudders at the mere mention of the plucky team from Charlotte who almost always seem to have the Lakers' numbers. Well, that plucky team made themselves worse by trading away Emeka Okafor for Tyson Chandler. I'm not saying Okafor is a game-breaker, but he was a very decent defender who could rebound and hurt you inside. Chandler can be a great rebounder, but his defense is too highlight oriented (going for the block) and his offense can best be described as an extension of Chris Paul's will. Now that he doesn't have Paul's gorgeous oops to throw down, I think it's pretty certain that he will be exposed badly on the offensive end. So ... the Lakers are sure to pick up two wins just by finally sticking the fork in Charlotte ... right?!?
Even besides Charlotte, the Lakers lost some pretty winnable games
In my opinion, the Lakers 17 losses break down like so: 10 understandable losses (both Orlando games, @ SA, @Den, @Atl, @Mia, NO, @Utah, 2 @ Por), 3 losses that probably shoudn't have happened (@ Char, @PHX (No Nash, No Stoudamire), home to Detroit), and 4 losses that are just embarrassing (home to PHI, @Ind, @Sac, home to Charlotte). Three of those losses (@SA, @Ind, PHI) came on last second plays that fall somewhere on the spectrum between unrealistic and WTF? A few more were very close. It's not hard to see more than 5 of those games turning from L's into W's next year, providing a buffer against the predictable drop in success against the NBA elite this year (6-3 last year, maybe 6-4 or 5-5 this year)
On the other side of the equation, the NBA playoffs look to be a bloodbath.
With 5 teams looking like legitimate Goliaths, this year's playoffs will be a massive war of attrition. The Lakers seem to be clear favorites going into the season, but who knows what will happen when 5 teams of that quality (and some not too shabby potential party crashers in the Blazers and Nuggets) square off. With all those super powers, winning the championship will not be an easy task at all, no matter who ends up in the Finals, and no matter who has the home court advantage. While the Lakers may have the best chance to win the title, the probability of it is still less than 50:50. One can not understate the difficulty of winning 70 games in any season, but this year the same could be said of winning the championship. The degree of difficulty in this year's playoffs will be astronomical for all of the major players, and there will be no margin of error from the 2nd round onward.
Trying to repeat as champions only adds to the degree of difficulty
It may sound odd considering how many champions have been able to repeat in the last 20 years, but winning a 2nd championship in a row is a lot harder than winning the first. It usually happens only when one team is a clear head and shoulders above the rest of the NBA. Since the demise of the Shaq-Kobe Lakers, that team has not existed (although the Spurs deserve honorable mention for their off-year domination), hence no repeat champion. Were the Lakers a dominant team last year? If looking at their record against the NBA elite, one could certainly make that case. But their performance against the rest of the NBA clouds the issue considerably. Are they head and shoulders above the rest this year? With all the upgrades made by all the other contenders, and with the risk-reward proposition that is Ron Artest, there are too many variables to come to a firm conclusion, and it is certainly not clear cut.
So, is the likelihood of winning 70 games higher than that of winning a championship? Probably not. There's a reason only one team in NBA history has won 70 games. It takes a massive level of commitment from a team to play in a professional manner night in, night out. The Lakers certainly didn't look like that model of professionalism during the last regular season. And, as previously mentioned, the shadow of injury looms over the whole scenario, ready to bring it crashing to the ground at any time. That being said, the NBA landscape this year, with a large number of teams who are very bad (mostly in the West), and a large number of teams who are very good (mostly in the East), provides the proper circumstance in which a team could win 70 games without being clearly more dominant than every other team in the league. The Lakers are the most likely candidate, but it could also happen to any one of the three elite teams in the East. I made this argument from a Lakers perspective, but many of the points can apply to the Eastern elite as well, especially since most of the teams on the other end of those power consolidating moves were Eastern conference teams. More than in any other NBA season in my memory, there are enough great teams and enough terrible teams to make it plausible to have a 70 game winner come up short at the end of the season.
Is it possible? Am I full of crap? Did I just jinx the Lakers? What do you think?
2 recs |
239 comments
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Comments
Said no to both
I think the Lakers have the best odds of winning the title, but I think no team in the NBA has a better than 50% chance of winning it this year. (Or almost any year for that matter.)
Since we are assuming the Lakers stay healthy, let’s say all other teams do too.
Lakers would run into
Phoenix, Portland, San Antonio in the WC and let’s say Cleveland in the East. Even if you have great faith in the Lakers and say they win each series 95, 85, 75, 65 percent of the time, this gives the Lakers only a 39% chance of winning the finals. Even if you up these to 95, 90, 80, 70… the Lakers would have under a 50% chance to win it all.
So that brings 70 wins in. It’s possible barring any injury, but still improbable. (Also if we give the Lakers the benefit of no injuries, I have to do it for everyone else, which means no games against teams that aren’t at full power.)
Now, if we say 0 injuries for Lakers and normal injuries for everyone else… then I would be guessing 67-68 wins for the Lakers, with 70 not being out of the question.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 12:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
“Said no to both”
Shocking I say, shocking.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 25, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Can you dispute my logic?
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No I cannot.
But I can dispute!
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Aug 25, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not at all, I agree totally.....
I just expected you to be the first one to point it out. And I was correct.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 25, 2009 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, when you know I will be the only one to point it out
It’s not hard to guess I will be the first.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
touche
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Aug 26, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you meant douche'
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like the war?
That’d make me the North and PS the South. He’s racist! (Okay that was quite a stretch, I know.)
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What, Zaig is a whiny Northwestern liberal who blames all of his problems on others??
SHOCKED………..TOTALLY SHOCKED
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yawns
Your responses (even though they are all jokes haha) don’t make any sense.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL......
“Your responses don’t make any sense.”
No I suppose to you, they don’t. You do keep things interesting around here though.
PS, calling me a racist…………..classy.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I posted a Zaig vs. pslakerfan fanpost so you guys can argue all you want.
Me, I could care less if you to go at it here. Just chill with the name calling and pot shots. Question reason, logic, or intelligence. Just keep it basketball and mature.
If you’d rather throw shots, there’s the z vs. ps post.
by wondahbap on Aug 26, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
pslakerfan
What does a “NorthWestern” liberal have to do with basketball?
by 420man! on Sep 9, 2009 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you know he's a liberal?
Another ? are there anymore conservatives left in calif.? Just asking from a northwestern conservative.
He did it! Yes he did!
by We-B-Dunkin on Sep 9, 2009 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Care to elaborate
on how you came up with the winning probabilities?
how about how you came up with the Laker’s opponents in the playoffs?
I guess what i’m trying to say is that the basis for your logic are mere suppositions
by altree on Aug 28, 2009 12:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Took educated guesses based on past 1 seeds
Obviously these numbers could be way off since the season hasn’t been played, we do know who they will face, and so on. The main idea I am trying to get across is how hard it is to win a title. I even tried to put things in the Lakers favor. (As Tung mentioned somewhere, if you are a 2-1 favorite every game, you have about an 87% chance to win the series. Against a 4 seed I doubt the Lakers would be a 2-1 favorite every game when you average it out, so I doubt they would be a 90% favorite, but that’s where I put them.)
Not an exact science by any means, just showing that you can be a 70%+ favorite in every round and not be favored to win it all.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 28, 2009 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zaig
I have a question for you since you seem really good with numbers and I am defenitely not.
What is the possibility or is it even possible for two teams (Lakers and Celtics) one from each Conference to each have 70 or more wins in the same year? Is that even mathematically possible? I apologize if this is a dumb question but I’m curious on your take on that. Has that ever even happened or close to it?
"When I walked into the locker room on my first day as a Laker and saw my gold uniform hanging there, I cried." - Magic Johnson (Best Laker Ever)
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Aug 25, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only one team have ever won 70 games.
‘96 Bulls. 72-10. Of course it’s possible for 2 teams to do it. Apology accepted on Zaig’s behalf.
by wondahbap on Aug 25, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thnx for accepting..
"When I walked into the locker room on my first day as a Laker and saw my gold uniform hanging there, I cried." - Magic Johnson (Best Laker Ever)
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Aug 25, 2009 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In terms of what's "possible"
You could have two teams in opposite conferences both win 81 games in a season, if they went undefeated against everybody else and split their own series. So 162 combined wins is the maximum theoretical possibility.
But in the real world, only a handful of teams besides Jordan’s Bulls have even sniffed 70 wins.
And the best combined record between two teams in the league happened when the Bulls did go for 72 wins, as Seattle had 64 wins in the same season.
by C.A. Clark on Aug 25, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
aaaah!
That’s what I was getting at.
"When I walked into the locker room on my first day as a Laker and saw my gold uniform hanging there, I cried." - Magic Johnson (Best Laker Ever)
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Aug 25, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
did the bulls go 72-10 one year and 70-12 another? or did they reach 70 just once
by chaucer on Aug 25, 2009 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
they went 69-13
the year after they went 72-10
by In the refrigerator on Aug 25, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the bulls were unbelievable. do u guys think they could have won 70 games in today’s nba with their exact roster?
by chaucer on Aug 26, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hell No!
"When I walked into the locker room on my first day as a Laker and saw my gold uniform hanging there, I cried." - Magic Johnson (Best Laker Ever)
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Aug 26, 2009 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Since
Phil wouldn’t be coaching the Lakers
by nba is the worst on Aug 27, 2009 2:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
Athletes have gotten better for the most part in the last 15 years. Not so significantly that MJ wouldn’t be completely awesome, but enough that his role playing teammates would be pretty bad.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 27, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention they'd be 20 years older...
Seriously, I think that if you’re going to bring yesteryear’s athletes into today’s game, you’re going to have to assume that they follow the same dietary and training regimen that today’s athletes do. Today’s players aren’t more athletic because they’re inherently different, so if, say, Michael Cooper were here today, he wouldn’t be the Michael Cooper we knew and (for some of us) loved to watch, he’d be someone a bit different. He’d be following the curve of player development over the last two decades.
To really look at chaucer’s question, I think you should be looking at what the distribution of talent was in the league back then, and what it is like now. Based on that, I think the Bulls would have had a (slim) chance to get 70 wins this past year, but the way the talent has been redistributed, I think they’d have been very hard-pressed indeed to get there this year. (And I also think they’d have been hard-pressed to get there in 2007-08. It really has to be a perfect storm.)
Incidentally, this notion of how you translate talent from 25 years ago to today’s league is why my opinion about Kobe vs MJ is likely to please nobody. Frankly, I think if you literally put today’s Kobe on yesteryear’s MJ, with four totally comparable players (all playing the triangle, of course!) on both teams to accompany them, I’d give Kobe the edge. But if you were to properly translate MJ to today’s world? I think MJ would beat Kobe. I’m a big Kobe fan, and I think the world of his drive and talent. But the places where MJ falls short of Kobe—long-range shooting, driving into traffic (by a narrow margin, to be sure)—you don’t think MJ would have worked like hell to get on top of Kobe? The one unfortunate thing is that we’ll never know for sure.
But I do know one thing: Comparing them with statistics—whether team-based or individual—is silly. Different league, different styles, different everything. People think that statistical comparison of superstars is somehow more objective, but it’s fool’s gold. There’s really no good basis for that kind of comparison.
by BrianTung on Aug 27, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jordan vs Kobe
I’ve often considered this. Similar to how Wilt would never get close to scoring 100 a game in today’s game, Jordan probably couldn’t dominate quite as much in today’s game.
Has the time difference been enough though? We all know that Olympic records fall like crazy because the athletes training programs are getting better and better, but some still stand. Would a Jordan clone from 1995 be like a swimmer, who sees his records getting beat by every guys in the finals, or would he be like the world record holder in the mile, who has seen his record go unchallenged for 10 years despite the new superathletes? (I think it’s the mile, might be the 800.)
Rule changes are also huge. Picture Shaq in an era with no 3 second rules. Scary…
Similarly, picture Jordan in the post 2004 NBA world where handchecking isn’t allowed. It might make his defense a bit worse, but his drive becomes even more deadly. I think that rule might also be the reason for such a huge influx of crazy good PGs. (Which may have been needed since the PG hasn’t been as relevant of position in the recent NBA as the other positions.) Is CP3/DWill/Harris/Rondo and co really that good, or does the hand check rule just make them look that good?
So many variables to compare that judging who is better than or now is tough. Lucky for Jordan, he has an infallible argument. Win 3 titles, being the best player on the court every time. Take 1.5 years off out of boredom. Win 3 more titles, being the best player on the court every time once again. (He also wins all the major advanced statistical categories that matter too.)
You give me a 1995 Jordan clone in today’s NBA and I’d still probably take him over any other player with maybe the exception of Lebron.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 27, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just once
But the year after, they did win 69
by C.A. Clark on Aug 25, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh, too many variables there.
I mean. If the NBA changed their system of paying players to match the MLB… then I would say it’s very possible for 2 teams to win 70 games in a season.
As it is… one team in the last 30 years (modern era?) has won 70 games. So based on raw probability, the odds of two teams doing it together are no better than 1/900ish.
This is simplifying things a bit much. I guess the best way would be to look at how many games a team should win that season, and somehow find a good standard deviation. Then look at the odds of each team winning 70+. The best teams each year probably have a 1-2% chance of winning 70+, so logically there is a chance that 2 teams would do it together.
The problem is, forcasting wins and a SD for how many wins a team should win isn’t an exact science and can’t even be done until the end of the seasons anyway. (Basketball-reference.com has a Pythagorean W-L that is based on Point Dif I believe that could probably work this out, but that’d all be hindsight.)
So, short story long… I have no clue. Just throwing at a guess I’d say it should happen once every couple hundred NBA seasons and I think that the fact that it has only happened once is a bit of an anomaly. I bet we see at least two 70 win teams in the next 30 years.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree...
…that it’s an anomaly. If it were an anomaly, you’d see a peck of 68-win, 69-win teams, but nothing 70 or over. Historically that hasn’t been the case. The paucity of seasons with wins in the upper 60s is an indication that 70 wins is genuinely a difficult mark to reach. That’s why I’m stunned at how many people think both 70 wins and a title will happen. The Lakers are very, very good. Perhaps they’re even historically good. But there have been lots of teams that were historically good and never made it. The Showtime Lakers never once got more than 65 wins, same as this year. The Shaq-Kobe Lakers never got more than 67. If that’s an even money bet you’re putting up, I’ll take that bet.
By the way, the “Pythagorean” formula that you’re referring to (so-called because the exponent for baseball is fairly close to 2) has an exponent of something like 14 for basketball. It’s that high because scoring events are very frequent in basketball, far more frequent than for any of the other major North American sports. As a result, scoring ratios are very close to one. The Nuggets playoff victory over the Hornets was a historical whupping in basketball, but the scoring ratio (the Nuggets essentially doubled up on the Hornets) wouldn’t have raised an eyebrow in any other sport.
With an essentially balanced schedule (two games against each team in the opposite conference, and three or more commonly four games against each team in the same conference), you could theoretically have in the neighborhood of eight to ten teams with 70 wins. Obviously, that’s not realistic. But the schedules do permit something like that.
by BrianTung on Aug 25, 2009 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
But the SD for wins should be such that having eight 70 win teams would be all but statistically impossible. We’d be talking 1/30^8th power or so. That’s a lot of zeros! It’d also be more likely to be 1/30 * 1/31 * 1/33 * whatever, because each extra team winning 70 would have a tougher time since they are playing so many other 70 win teams and have to share losses.
And although most teams have only reached 66 to 67, it’s not too far of a cry for them to actually be a 70 win team.
Cleveland lost @ Washington twice
Cleveland lost in OT to Chicago
Cleveland lost by 1 to Pacers
Cleveland effectively threw their final game
Yes, the past is done and they lost those games. But it’s not too inconceivable for that team to win 4 of those 5 games and still have the rest of the season go the same way. I mean those Wizards losses are “huh?” type losses and OT/1 point losses are just 1 possession difference.
Change 3 possessions of their season and Cleveland wins 70 games. (Assuming they beat Philly at full power.) Now, you could also change 3 possessions to have them win 64, but we’re discussing the highs right now. I’m sure you could look at many 1-2 point losses for a lot of the 66-67 win teams.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the fallacy of the insignificant change
I once chatted on the Spurs board (I can do that because I’m a swell guy—well, and also I tend to talk in a very conservative way as far as my team is concerned), and there was this Spurs fan who insisted that it was plausible, in the 2007-08 season, that if some small difference had held (something involving Manu, maybe), then the Spurs wouldn’t have been tired out in their first two playoff series, then they wouldn’t have lost the big lead in Game 1 against the Lakers, then the rest of the games would have gone the same, except that they would have gotten the call on Fisher, then they would have won the series in Game 6 and then won the title. It was such an over-the-top “if only” kind of scenario—the kind where you change all the things that didn’t go your way originally, but none of the things that did—but he wouldn’t accept that. He genuinely thought it was just a hair’s breadth from happening.
My guess is that last year, out of the 66 wins the Cavaliers did get, more than one was of the “boy, we just got away with that one” variety. If you get one of the ones you shouldn’t have lost, you’ll probably end up giving away one of the ones you should have. Also, I think very few teams have won 66 games. It’s not as common as you think, I believe. I don’t have the stats, but maybe a handful of franchises at most have ever done it?
By the way, on a complete tangent, when I posted my in-depth examination of the Fisher 0.4 shot
http://thenullhypodermic.blogspot.com/2009/06/infamous-fisher-04-shot.html
by far the greatest response was from Spurs Fan, not Lakers Fan. And almost universally that response was, I read the whole thing, I don’t care, we got jobbed. Never mind that their one plausible claim—that the clock was started late—was demonstrated to be essentially false (it was started after contact, but the delay was entirely within normal bounds). I know a few Spurs fans, and they’re generally good people, but they’re so far in denial on that thing it’s not even funny.
by BrianTung on Aug 26, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
Let’s say the Cavs had 8 “heartbreaker” type games. The Cavs won 5 of these and lost 3 of them. That’s actually pretty good, and asking for the Cavs to go 8-0 in these would be unrealistic. But it is feasible that they go 8-0 in these, just unlikely.
This is why some random comment earlier about a 7 game series not being luck is so absurd. Entire titles are decided by a single play in a single game at times. How is there no variance in that?
As for the denial thing, there is some truth to every “what if” moment in every series, but that’s what makes sports so fun.
“What is Lee makes the layup to win the game for Orlando.”
“What if Nelson plays defense OR what if Fisher misses the 3.”
These are two shots, both in Orlando’s favor percentage wise, that went the Lakers way and turned a 1-3 series into a 3-1 series. But, reality says that Lakers won both, so that is how things go. Also, the Lakers could say “Well Lee missed an easy layup, but what are the odds of him getting that good of a look with .8 seconds left?” The answer to that would be not good. If you go to the inbound, then the Lakers were indeed the statistical favorite. (This is getting confusing.)
Let’s look at it like this.
-Lakers ball, tie game, X seconds left. Lakers will win in this situation more often than not. But they fail to score. (Like 30% win and 60some% OT)
-Magic ball, .8 seconds left, tie game. Magic will win in this situation more often than the Lakers will, but a vast majority will go into overtime. (We’re talking 10% win and 90% OT here.)
-Magic ball, Lee catches a pass in the air by the hoop. Now we’re looking at 75-80% chance for Magic to win, 20-25% chance for OT.
The point is, theoretical’s are tricky. You can pick any point in a 10 second period and say why your team was screwed.
“Lee should have made that layup” is countered by
“Lee never should have had this look” or
“Lakers should have scored when they had the ball or at least run out the clock.”
my head hurts
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
bit of a tangent
I had another post inspired by Courtney Lee’s missed layup:
http://thenullhypodermic.blogspot.com/2009/06/points-are-points-sort-of.html
by BrianTung on Aug 26, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good read, thanks!
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although I am a retard when it comes to math that actually made sense to me. It would sure be really great though to see that happen once in my lifetime. Thank you Zaig.
"When I walked into the locker room on my first day as a Laker and saw my gold uniform hanging there, I cried." - Magic Johnson (Best Laker Ever)
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Aug 25, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
what?
That doesn’t even make sense. When you pull these numbers out of your ass, does they also figure in opposing teams percentage of winning?
As you conceded that “no team in the NBA has a better than 50% chance of winning it this year,” you miss the fact that if the Lakers have “only a 39% chance of winning the finals [vs. the Cavaliers]” then it must be so that the Cavs have a 61% chance of taking the title home…how does that work? And while we’re at it, if the Lakers have a sliding scale of ease (rather, it should be a growing scale of difficulty) your “formula” ignores the idea that a WC team could be stronger than an EC finalist. I will flat out say that the way the Nuggets played this past postseason was good enough to beat ANY EC playoff team, hands down.
Back to your biased homerism in 3, 2…
What is clearly a more logical argument is that in today’s NBA it is less and less likely to win 70+ games per season.
by jxanthony on Aug 25, 2009 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're misinterpreting his numbers
The 39 percent was for the Lakers to win all four series. That doesn’t mean that the Cavaliers win it the other 61 percent of the time, unless you concede that they’d beat all other teams except the Lakers. And Zaig never said either of those things. Even if you concede that the Cavaliers unavoidably make the NBA Finals (which he never said, either), they could still end up losing to some other team, like the Spurs.
In any realistic scenario, at 39 percent (if it ended up being that), the Lakers would be distinct favorites. Even without a vig that’s 3-2 odds. I’m not sure Vegas would give you much better than even money on a 39-percent favorite. I doubt you’d disagree with that assessment of the Lakers.
by BrianTung on Aug 25, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a Lakers fan...
I agree. I think the poll respondents underestimate how difficult both tasks are. You can make a very good case for the Lakers as title favorites, but I think only a homer thinks they are odds-on favorites (i.e., better than even odds). And at least one team wins a title every season. Think about how many times a 70-win season has happened. (Hint: It’s less than fifty.)
So the most likely scenario is that they do neither. The next most likely is that they win the title, but don’t get to 70 wins. The remaining two are a toss-up, because they happen so rarely that it doesn’t matter. I will say that a 70-win team should be a big big favorite to win the title, at the start of the postseason.
by BrianTung on Aug 25, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Phoenix in the playoffs? I say nay, nay. What have they done to improve themselves?
by 81 Witness on Aug 25, 2009 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Insert any team you want there
Still giving Lakers 95% to win that series.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not much. but perhaps they’ll have one of those addition by subtraction situations. in this case, they may have gotten a little bit better by simply getting rid of shaq, who doesn’t fit they’re style of play. in the end, it will be difficult for this team to get into the playoffs.
by chaucer on Aug 26, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hahaha
Dude, you’re the biggest Kobe hater the world has ever seen. I think you would slit your wrist in Kobe and the Lakers win another win. You probably cannot put yourself through the pain of even IMAGING such an atrocity. Kobe with 5 rings?!?! You’d rather a meteor hit the earth and destroy it if the Lakers are up 3-0 in the NBA finals, just so Kobe doesn’t get the 5th ring.
Oh, if you want me to combat your “logic” it is very easy. You wrote: “95, 85, 75, 65 percent of the time, this gives the Lakers only a 39% chance of winning the finals. Even if you up these to 95, 90, 80, 70… the Lakers would have under a 50% chance to win it all.”
Well, the issue with your “logic” is that you have picked those numbers out of the clear blue sky. They are not real percentages —they are ones you picked for whatever reason. But in basketball, especially in a 7 game series, luck has very little to do with winning. Typically, the best team wins a 7 game series. It is not like flipping a coin where there is 50/50 chance or let’s say a 3 sided die with w on 2 sides and l on one side making it a 66.6% chance of getting a w on one role. In a 7 game series, very little is due to luck and a lot is due to talent. If the lakers are a dominant team and the best in the league, the percentages would be closer to 99%, 98%, etc. Very rarely does a dominant team lose to a lesser team in a 7 game series. But then again, my numbers are picked out of the blue sky as well. The point of this post is to say that your logic is FAULTY. You have picked those numbers randomly.
Thus, it invalidates your entire “argument.” And besides the point, you just posted that because you are a Kobe/Laker HATER. Flailing around in order to come up with an argument makes it no better.
PS: the best place to get odds is the MARKET PLACE. If you want odds on the economy, look at the stock market. If you want odds on a presidential candidate winning, you look at the futures betting, not polls. The market place has shown that it is the best at placing odds. And the odds i’ve seen put the lakers at about 50% for next year, some higher and some lower, but averaging out to be about 50%.
by plyka on Aug 25, 2009 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A 7 game series doesn't remove luck
That’s a silly statement. And 95, 90, 80, 70 is pretty generous for each team, especially considering that the WCSF, WCF, and Finals will be brutal this year.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well he said that luck had very little to do with it...........not completely removed.
You’re a poker player Zaig, you know that the longer the game, the less likely that the lucky player will win and the more likely that the skilled player will prevail. Same in most sports.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
despite Sir Charles's claim
The best team doesn’t always win a seven-game series. It’s just not long enough, whether the game is poker, basketball, or full-contact tiddely-winks. Chris Ferguson, who before he became a poker star and fabulously wealthy and forgot who I was worked with me under the same Ph.D. advisor, once told me that in a tournament of 200 players, where the average player has a 0.5 percent chance of winning, great skill might increase that ten-fold, to 5 percent. Odds are, an average player is going to win, even if the favorite is not an average player.
@plyka: Even if Vegas odds were even money—and they’re not, the latest figures I have are between 11-6 and 5-2—the vigorish put on the bets means that Vegas really thinks they’re less than 50 percent to win the title. At 11-6, without a vig, it’s a bit more than 35 percent for them to win the title; with the vig, it’s more like 30 percent, conservatively speaking. At 5-2 odds, it’s about 30 and 25 percent. Zaig’s scenario is actually pretty generous.
by BrianTung on Aug 26, 2009 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of which, are the season over/unders out yet?
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This might hold true in a 31 game series
But 7 is still pretty short. As my above post mentions, an entire series of 7 games can be effectively decided by 1 play. That 1 play can be decided by numerous factors.
Basketball also has matchups and all that good stuff that poker doesn’t. I see the point, but I would rarely pick one good team as a 90% favorite over another good team, even if that team is better.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, think about heads up poker instead......
I mean of course in the WSOP, luck will almost always prevail, Phil Ivey not withstanding. But in a 7 game heads up poker match, I take skill over luck all the way.
You can’t compare a 7 game series between two teams to anything with 200 players. (That last part was for Brian Tung)
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
as Zaig says
Seven games of anything is too short unless the difference between the teams is already overwhelming. Say that a team is a 2-1 favorite in any single game—not the whole series, just one game, where anything can happen, right? That’s a pretty significant advantage for a team when both teams made the Finals. The odds for the favorite to win the whole seven-game series are 5-1. Definitely most likely to win, but hardly ironclad. The underdog is still half as likely to win the whole series as they are to win any individual game.
What would it even mean to take luck over skill? Of course people bet on the favorite—they’re by definition most likely to win. But saying that luck is not a significant element—that it has very little to do with it—is sort of silly. Now, in a 201-game series, luck does indeed have very little to do with it, although I think even the NBA wouldn’t be too keen on something like that. :)
by BrianTung on Aug 26, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay...
My friend is the top ranked heads up poker player online this year. He wins more often than he loses by a good margin.
He got bored at the Rio one day while I was playing, so he sat a guy who was obviously the inferior player. 17 matches later, my friend had won 4. Now obviously poker has a lot more luck involved than basketball, but my friend went 4-13 against the inferior player.
Would I bet on my friend to win 9/17 against this guy? Yes. Every time. But stuff happens. Tung gives a good example with the 2-1 thing.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poker and basketball can not be compared.
No matter how skilled the poker player, there’s still too much that cannot be controlled by the player.
by wondahbap on Aug 26, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neither can online poker...........and real poker.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've seen too many super aggressive fish on online poker to consider it realpoker.
Don’t trust my luck on a computer, and can’t use my reads on a screen.
by wondahbap on Aug 26, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"reads" are overrated
They give you a minor edge in live games, that’s it.
The guys who are fish online are fish live. The guys who are fish live are fish online. They exist in both games, so I’m not sure why it’s any different online.
And not a single one of the top 100 online players are bad live players. It’s simply flawed logic to assume that they are two different games, but this is a discussion that probably doesn’t belong on SSAN.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I really mean
absolutely ridiculous calls that hit runner runner, or hit on the river when a call on the flop or turn would have made no sense. Time and again. For real money. Decent money. I simply don’t trust poker online.
by wondahbap on Aug 26, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Word
It happens live too, it just seems to happen more often online. Simply explanation really.
You play hands 3x as fast and a lot of people play many many tables. I prefer 6ish, but I know some guys who do 12-15 regularly. Either way, I’m seeing 18 times as many hands online as live, thus 18 times more BS.
As for the legitness. A couple of sites have uhad cheaters. Not the dealer itself, but accounts that allow you to see the cards. The main 2 sites have been clean of this so far though.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This statement is definitely true.....
The guys who are fish online are fish live. The guys who are fish live are fish online. They exist in both games, so I’m not sure why it’s any different online.
But that doesn’t mean online poker and live poker are the same. Clicking to add $25 to a pot and actually putting the chips in a pot aren’t the same. Trust me.
If you play a 1-3 no limit casino game with $1 chips you will get $3-$8 pre-flop raises and post flop bets. Switch to $5 chips and you will get much larger ($10-$15) pre-flop raised and post flop bets. Same limits, very different game.
The point is that people bet and play differently when they “feel” like they are putting more real money in the pot. I am not a psychologist, but it happens every time.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
pslaker has a point
No matter what live is a different feel.
Zaig, you seem like a numbers guy, so I’m sure everything is percentages. My game relies on playing the odds, but I also rely heavily on body language, watching my opponents watch the flop, how they count their chips, their tone of voice when they raise, etc.
You can’t see that online. Only betting patterns.
by wondahbap on Aug 26, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually do better live
My backer told me he’d never stake me in a 10k event online, but that live he had no second thoughts about it because I have a knack for the live game.
But… true “reads” really only come into play a few times a tournament. Most of the live game is logic too and the same type of reads you can do online.
Example: Fi Ngyuen raised me on day 2 when we both had deep stacks. I decided to flat 55 from the button. The flop came out 6QAss. He fired a 2/3 bet out and I went 3x over the top. He thought for a bit and called. At this point, logic tells me he has a decent A and isn’t sure of my raise yet. No “tells” informed me of this, just playing lots of hands.
The turn cane the 9s. (my 5s were red.) He checked to me. Either had had AT or AJ like I thought, or he was on a draw, in which case it hit. Logic told me that in this situation, he is probably not on the draw, since the As and Qs were out there. I doubt he raised any 2 spades pre that were lower than that, as he was pretty nit. So that leaves me with my original guess of AJ.
No tells inform me if I think he can fold it, but based on passed hands, my image was such that I thought he would. So, I fired out a 2/3 bet, which put 55-60% of my chips in the middle. (We had 200bb stacks, so this was substantial.) He stared into my soul for a couple minutes and then folded, apparently not getting any tells.
So we played a pretty complex, deep stacked hand without tells really mattering at all, just logic and reasoning. Sadly, that was my biggest hand of the tournament because I couldn’t actually get a real hand to stack someone with.
(Sorry if that was long.)
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay. Maybe my post came across wrong.
The logic and reasoning are the most important things, but sometimes you can just own a person because you have a bead on them. It’s the tells that help. Of course, good poker players can hide tells or not have them.
by wondahbap on Aug 26, 2009 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that tells are somewhat overrated, but I don't think tells are the only difference between online and live games.
Like you, I play much better in a casino. First of all I play mostly $$ games and not tournaments so maybe that makes a difference. However I play looser and more aggressive online than I do in a casino. I don’t know why other than the fact that the money seems less real and I am usually paying attention to other things (wife, kid, TV, Laker blog, etc). I just think they are two completely different things.
I also don’t think the success of internet players in the WSOP means much as there are thousands of them and therefor one of them is more likely to end up winning. I still think you take the best 10 live players and put them up against the 10 best internet players in a fairly long (less luck involved) game and the 10 live players have a much better chance of winning. Of course this game would be played live…..
FTR I am not against playing on the internet, I do all the time, but I just think they are very different.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe your friend isn't very good.....
or maybe he just underestimated his opponent.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm
Did you miss the part where he is the top ranked heads up player online?
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw the "online" part..........the rest didn't matter after that.
Because then you said he was at the Rio. Online is not the same as real live poker despite your pontifications to the contrary.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe THAT is why he lost.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he cashed in his first WSOP ME
He does okay live too.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not trying to trash your friend, I am just saying that most people play different on the internet than they do live.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bad assumption
He was at the Rio, on a bench, playing online. He was railing me in the Main Event, but I was at a table that was dull to watch, so he was hanging out until dinner break.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haven't been to Vegas in a few years....
didn’t know you could play online in the casino. Do you mean the casino has internet poker, or he had his own laptop going?
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have like 6-7 Indian casinos in my area so I don't go to Vegas much.
I only play poker, so what is the point if I can play 2 miles from home.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And turns out I was wearing blue on day one.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
damn, I looked for you, but I was looking for red.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Red musta been day 2, sorry!
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well you can rent some "stations" that they have
But he just has a laptop and wi-fi or whatever it is.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would rarely pick one good team as a 90% favorite over another good team, even if that team is better.
Aren’t most 1 seeds about a 90% favorite over the 8 seed? I mean historically.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe 80 to 85 percent
Since the first round went to a seven-game series in 2002, there’ve been what, like two or three upsets? Out of 16 series.
I don’t remember what it was for when it was a five-game series. Might have actually been rarer under those conditions. Didn’t the Knicks make it to the NBA Finals as an 8-seed?
by BrianTung on Aug 26, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was using too high of numbers to argue in the Lakers favor
Even with my favorable numbers, they fall below 50%, that’s just the way a 16 team playoff works.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
okay this feels like a statistics class.
by chaucer on Aug 26, 2009 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good post
You make some salient points, but as far as the Pacific Division this year, I think you’ve missed the mark. While the Kings will continue to be bad, every other team looks to improve this year in the Pacific, some, by a great deal. Phoenix is no longer the juggernaut it once was with Marion, Nash and Amare, but they still have a very good team, especially if STAT puts up the numbers that got him the nickname in the first place. They will no doubt go back to SSOL play which will make them very dangerous.
Last year, Monta Ellis was hurt and the Warriors management was in shambles. This year, they’ve added a top draft pick and have everyone back healthy…including Anthony Randolph who many think will have a breakout season. The Warriors are stacked with talent and will be another team, like the Suns, that will play lightning fast and pile up points and, as a result, regular season wins.
Finally, I honestly think the Clippers have a very good shot of not only making the playoffs, but perhaps winning a series as well. All of the cancer is gone, Baron Davis is highly motivated and in the best shape of his life, and they’ve added the early favorite for rookie of the year in Blake Griffin. Assuming Eric Gordon and DeAndre Jordan continue to develop, the Clips are stacked as well.
The Pacific division could actually be one of the strongest division next year.
by Dodgerblue15 on Aug 25, 2009 2:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I have to disagree with the Pacific being one of the strongest division.
If the Clippers stay healthy and mesh, they could make the playoffs. The other teams will not. They may give teams some trouble here or there, but nothing consistent.
by wondahbap on Aug 25, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
But my point is that the Suns will be, if not better, at least as good as last year and the Warriors should be much improved, making the Pacific Division a much tougher division. As a result, by no means will the Lakers go “undefeated in their division.”
by Dodgerblue15 on Aug 25, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't expect them to go undefeated either.
It’s just too hard.
by wondahbap on Aug 25, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Division wins
Pacific- 176
Southwest- 230
Northwest- 203
Southeast- 203
Central- 216
Atlantic- 202
The Pacific would nee to improve by 22 games to catch the next division. (They’re 26 back, but if they win 22 more it means each other division wins 4.4 less on average.)
That’s doable I suppose since Clippers/Warriors can add 20 by themselves probably and the Kings can’t get worse. But that also requires the Suns to stay good and the Lakers to not falter at all. All possible, but if one team fails it probably screws it up for the division.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the Clippers never stay healthy.
by intuitive on Aug 25, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where you see potential I see the same old story
The Warriors have been the same run and gun team for years, and all it ever got them was one playoff berth and one of the best playoff upsets of all time. And unless I missed something, the same management which was in shambles is still there, so there’s no guarantee of any improvement. Yes, Monta Ellis is a good player who should be fully healthy this year, but the Warriors weren’t exactly burning down anybody’s house at the end of last year, and they have most of the same pieces coming back.
As for the Clippers, while I do think they will improve (and said so), as long as Dunleavy is their coach, I’m going to be skeptical about their ability to do anything but possibly eek into the playoffs. And Baron Davis “finds” himself every couple of years, with very little to show for it most times.
I will concede that Phoenix may end up as an addition by subtraction situation. By simply getting back to the way they were “meant” to play, they could improve despite giving up Shaq for nothing.
It’s possible (even likely with the demise of Houston) that one of the Clippers, Warriors, or Suns will make the playoffs, but I can’t see it being higher than a 7 seed. If that’s the case, you are still looking at 2-3 teams in each division better than the 2nd best team in the Pacific.
So I’m sticking by my point there =)
by C.A. Clark on Aug 25, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will be so bold to say that if the Lakers won 70, there is no way they don't win It all.
by wondahbap on Aug 25, 2009 2:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Dallas might want to discuss that with you :-)
There is a difference between 67 and 70 of course, but if a 67 win team can leave in round 1… yeah, I’d never be too sure. A bad matchup can be a bad matchup no matter how good you are.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But there's a huge difference.
The Lakers will be the defending Champs. It will be pretty safe to assume that 70 wins means the Lakers have improved from the year they won it, so Dallas can’t be an acceptable comparison.
by wondahbap on Aug 25, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BOBCATS!
In reality, dunno, season hasn’t started! Maybe the new Spurs team, maybe the new Blazer team, Denver overachieved last year against the Lakers… maybe they do it even more.
Like I said above. I’d give the Lakers the advantage vs anyone, but there is a reason that the overall number 1 seed wins under 40% of the titles.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But we're talking about 70 wins
not just #1 seed. 70 Wins isn’t some flash in the pan record. Especially if the Champs did it. That % is 100.
by wondahbap on Aug 25, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would change things if the Lakers won 70 games and the 12 losses for the Lakers were against the top tier teams. Kind of like the Cavaliers last year, great regular season record but against the top tier teams their record was pretty bad.
70 wins seems like a stretch anyway. I mean there’s a reason only 1 team has ever won 70 games in NBA history. Presumably everything would have to go right for the Lakers next year – no injuries, winning all the close games, etc.
by intuitive on Aug 25, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
.....Ron Ron staying off of Twitter.
The man is a twitter machine. I hope he doesn’t get carpal tunnel syndrome.
by wondahbap on Aug 25, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He created a new twitter today, http://twitter.com/ThugRaider37
by intuitive on Aug 25, 2009 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's a big factor
Obviously, there’s no good historical basis. But I agree that if the Lakers ended the regular season with 70+ wins, they’d be at least odds-on favorites to win the title. I can’t see how it would be otherwise. (Of course, that’d still mean that there could be up to a 50-percent chance they wouldn’t win the whole thing.)
by BrianTung on Aug 25, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If AI signs with the Bobcats,
they will be very dangerous in the East. I predict AI will resurrect his career and image, and the NBA can rest easy. If it happens, I predict the Bobcats will be a Top 4 seed in the East, and take out one of the Big 3 (East) in the playoffs.
by wondahbap on Aug 25, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's even more of a bold prediction than guranteeing a title if Lakers win 70.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's a prediction if it isn't bold?
“Not a, not a, not a…not a damn thing /
What’s Duke Ellington without that swing!”
by wondahbap on Aug 25, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I predict that the Lakers will have a winning record!
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you go out any further on that limb...
…you’ll be on it.
by BrianTung on Aug 25, 2009 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I might want to talk to the New England Patriots.
But then again, they only get to play one game for It all.
by wondahbap on Aug 25, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah 1 game upset is different than a series
Wish it woulda been any other QB than Eli who pulled the upset though…
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who lives in Providence.
Although I like the Pats too. (Well, I root for them in the AFC.) I HATE New England sports fans.
by wondahbap on Aug 25, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got nothing against the Giants, just Eli
Shoot, I went to a small college that has only produced 2 NFL players. One is Kevin Boss, who caught a 43 yard pass in the 4th quarter of that game. (Nobody remember it because of the sicko catch that came later.) I just can’t let myself root for guys who are egomaniacs as rookies and demand that they play for, or not play for, a team.
This is going to give me some serious issues with Crabtree if he doesn’t pull his head out of his ass.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you went to Western Oregon university?
also can you blame Eli? The chargers had Drew Bree’s undercenter and it was possible that Eli wouldnt have even gotten to start his first few years.
he took a gamble and he won. I’m 100% sure he knew the backlash he would get from not wanting to play for the chargers, and took the chance. It paid off….
Plus its not like the chargers were hurt from losing Eli. Turning Eli into Rivers, Kaeding, and Merriman? It was one of the greatest moves I’ve seen. San Diegans love Phillip as reflected by his huge contract extension.
In Kobe we trust!
by robi s on Aug 26, 2009 12:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't matter how things turned out
It’s a terrible precident. If all the top draft prospects acted like Eli, the NFL would be in shambles. It’s one guy doing something that could potentially do big harm, but he knows that since only he is doing it, nothing that bad will happen. That’s pretty damn selfish and borderline sociopathic (in a non sociopathic way if that makes sense.)
And yes I did.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
true, but he didn’t set the precedent. Rookies and Vets alike made demands before manning, and they will continue to make demands without even heeding Eli.
If you haven’t noticed, Football is the worst when it come to players demanding things. More and more teams often go to uncanny measures to make the individual happy. Take this summer alone, the Broncos trade on of the best QB’s in the league for one of the worst, just cuz Cutler wants it? The Vikings let Favre sit out training camp just cuz he didnt want to go? The 49’ers 1st round pick is holding out for a ridiculous amount of money? I don’t even have to go into the one man drama that is TO and Senor Chad 85. So while I don’t agree with Eli’s methods, it is silly to hold a grudge considering he is just one of many diva NFL players. The whole situation is really a two way street, you should hate on the Chargers for appeasing Eli. We can even go to the next level, lets hate the sponsors too.
The problem isnt just specific to the NFL, Kobe demanded a trade. The Nat’s Strasburg almost did’t play. Wagner doesn’t want to play for Boston past this year, if he can’t be a closer. I can go on. Unless its a guy making demands of your team it would probably be best just to look past it, cuz like it or not, its apart of proffesional sports, cuz otherwise you’re going to have a VERY long list of people you dislike (something tells me however that you do already….)
All that aside, this bad behavior always comes around to bit the player in the butt at sometime in their career. Iverson. Marbury. Marvin Harrison. Isiah Rider, Rodman. just a few that come to mind
In Kobe we trust!
by robi s on Aug 26, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
There is a long list of athletes who piss me off. :-)
I don’t quite mind it as much with vets. Right or not, they have paid their dues. They also understand how the league works, how they fit with their team, etc.
You work at a business for 4 years. You go in and talk to your boss and ask if you can get a transfer to division X for whatever reason. Boss may or may not like this, but the discussion happens.
Now… same scenario only with a kid who got hired yesterday. The boss will likely laugh him out of the office. (Or fire him.)
And yes, as a 49ers fan I will not root for Crabtree if he doesn’t remove his head from his ass. He has proven nothing and he is demanding more money. Seriously? I am hoping he comes to his senses and just plays like he should, but if he doesn’t, I won’t be rooting for him. (I will still be happy when he scores for the team obviously, but I will wish it was someone else, I will hope he doesn’t make the probowl, etc.)
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
except the lakers have 0 bad matchups. The closest team being to be bad matchup is portland, and I’m sure in a 7 game series phil would figure a way to turn the tables in our favor.
In Kobe we trust!
by robi s on Aug 25, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say Boston could be a pretty bad matchup
Or Orlando with a healthy Jameer Nelson. Those teams both provide some matchup problems.
Of course, the Lakers provide bad matchups right back, probably more so, but I wouldn’t discount the bad matchup factor entirely.
by C.A. Clark on Aug 25, 2009 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sir...
Robi the great has spoken. He sees the future better than you or I could ever hope to see the past or present!
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a reason why I win fantasy football every year lol. I have the uncanny ability to differentiate the sleepers from the busts.
In Kobe we trust!
by robi s on Aug 26, 2009 1:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
I’m not ready to dismiss Boston. They may be old, but they still match up pretty darn well with us and vice versa.
Portland is a young athletic team that also matches up very well against us.
Orlando too. But we gave them problems with our Pau/LO combo but they give us problems with a healthy Nelson.
In the end, I see the only three teams to present a problem to the Lakers are the Magic, Portland and Boston.
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Aug 25, 2009 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boston will be no problem
Their big 3 are aging and aging FAST. They have fallen over the last year or 2 in dramatic fashion.
Paul Pierce PER
07: 21.XX
08: 19.77
09: 17.55
Garnett:
08: 25.XX
09 21.XX
I didn’t check Ray Ray, but I bet he has slipped as well. Although the slippage is probably not as large. Rasheed on the other hand has fallen off of a cliff. But the 2 important ones, Pierce and Garnett are truly showing their age. They are NOT the same players as they were in 08. In 09 you could see that their games had fallen due to age. Now add another year for Pierce, and he is not even close to the same player he was in 08. Garnett on the other hand is coming off of a SERIOUS knee injury, at his age. His drop off will be even more significant next year. Then add in the fact that 2 of our starters, Ariza and Bynum did not play in the 08 finals. Without those 2, we would have lost against Denver this year. But we will have them (Ariza out but an upgrade in Artest in) next year, hopefully with a fully healthy Bynum. Not to mention that they are also missing 2 important pieces in James Posey and Leon Power. 2 huge role players in the 08 championship. Add all these factors, and I doubt that Boston will have anything for us next year.
The Magic are a similar story in 1 sense —Vince Carter. The Nets got rid of him for a reason. Does Vince fall off a cliff at his advanced age? Especially with his lack of toughness and work ethic. It’s not like he is Kobe. And add to that that they get Jameer back healthy but we get Bynum back healthy. Bynum is a much more important player than Jameer. PG is the least important position on the floor actually.
Cleveland however, may be the surprise. I’ve always thought that that team was excellent even without Lebron. However, I highly doubt that the Shaq addition will make a difference. Shaq is equal to big Z, if not big Z is probably even better than Shaq at their current ages. And they cannot have both on the court at the same time. Nevertheless, I predict that the Cavs will be our greatest obstacle. Luckily, the 2-4 best teams are all in the East. We should have an easy run to the NBA finals and then we only need to beat 1 of them.
by plyka on Aug 25, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess i forgot to say i was talking about only Western conference teams seeing how we only play the eastern conf teams twice…
but yes you are correct that both boston and orlando are terrible matchups for us. Basically any team with a point guard under 30 is a problem for us lol, and yet I wouldnt say the hornets, jazz, nets are a bad match up for us.
Orlando, i cant say anything, they are a bad matchup straight up.
Boston however doesnt scare me that much.
- rondo is good, but he hides in a hole in the 4th.
-Perkins is almost like a tank, but still not an offensive threat, and gasol/lo will be able to lure him away from the paint on D
- allen is very streaky, and lately he has been off more often than he has been on.
- garnett is on the slow decline, and no one knows how he has recovered from the injury
- pierce…..we got artest now, who seems to love the idea of being a defensive stopper. An artest that only worries about playing D is going to cause Pierce problems
-Wallace, he was awful last year, and I dont think the major reason was because of his motivation.
all that being said, Bynum helps even up the size advantage tremendously which was the only real separation between us and them in 08
In Kobe we trust!
by robi s on Aug 26, 2009 1:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Problem is that Dallas' best player was the one causing the bad matchup for Dallas
I don’t need stats for the postseason, I don’t know if they reflect this or not, but I know it is real.
Dirk Nowitzki can be harrassed on offense by a 6’7 small forward. Dirk Nowitzki is also painfully slow on defense.
I have no stats, just observations that can be demonstrated with video and a pen light.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Aug 25, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No stats? No stats? How dare you........
It’s all about the stats……watching games is for arrogant Laker fans, you know that!
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 25, 2009 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed, who needs to watch the game when we have box scores.
In Kobe we trust!
by robi s on Aug 26, 2009 1:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You should copy and paste this post
It’ll save you a lot of typing in the future since it’s really the only thing you know how to say.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yikes, someone woke up on the wrong side of the strip club.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no wrong side of the strip club!
Your constant berating of using evidence is just tiring.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually I would say constant berating of your childish name calling would be more accurate.....
BTW how does a guy with a college degree resort to name calling and childish insults in EVERY argument.
Were you some prodigy that graduated when you were 12? Wait……………are you Doogie Howser?
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shall we look as this thread?
Wonda posts (constructive post)
Zaig replys to Wonda (constructive post)
Gils replays to Zaig (constructive post)
PS comes in and takes a shot at Zaig despite not being involved in the convo.
Zaig bites and says that you do this quite often.
PS says Zaig is cranky
Zaig says the berating is tiring
PS accuses Zaig of name calling
Yeah… I don’t see your case here. I also like how you say EVERY post, when the post before it has no name calling.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And here I thought you two were just engaging in playful banter
Please don’t let this deteriorate any further.
by C.A. Clark on Aug 26, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is this Celtics blog?
Settle down C.A.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because we're not totalitarian
Doesn’t mean that you and Zaig deciding to turn the blog into your own personal boxing ring is something that we endorse.
Exchange emails, decide to meet in person, or if you must, start up your own fanpost specifically dedicated to sparring with each other. Just don’t water down the rest of the conversation here. It’s not like other site members are reading your stuff and thinking … “Yeah, you tell him”
by C.A. Clark on Aug 26, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
OOOhhh........"decide to meet in person"
I like that option.
“It’s not like other site members are reading your stuff and thinking … "Yeah, you tell him"
Aw, come on don’t pee in my cornflakes. That’s the only thing that keeps me going.
Since you seem interested though, why don’t you review some of those posts and see who is calling who “dumb, racist, ignorant, etc”. Sorry if I feel the need to defend myself (and the Lakers).
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roger
PS is my kryptonite. He doesn’t add anything to the conversation, but feels the need to continue talking and repeating the same 3 things. I’m really really bad at letting that slide, but I will make an effort!
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I am sure when the discussion goes from hypothetical to real..
when the season starts you will be here just as often……….I will wait anxiously.
You’re right of course, our argument is pointless. It’s like having a fling with a tourist. Eventually one of you is just going to go back to wherever you came from and it will be all over. Too bad, you are kind of fun to annoy.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm liking most of the discussion though
With you, Gils, PeanutButter, Wonda, and Tung.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I have a problem with you Zaig...
It should be wondah for short. Bap is the 1st 3 letters of my last name. Wondah is wonder. Wonderbap. Wondahbap. Wondah. Get it right! Biotch! Haha.
by wondahbap on Aug 26, 2009 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I thought h was a middle initial
Wonda H. Bap
Pretty badass name if you ask me!
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm from New England
Wondah is wonder with a Providence accent.
Nomah! Chowdah! Wondah!
by wondahbap on Aug 26, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You said:
“PS comes in and takes a shot at Zaig despite not being involved in the convo.”
This is what I said:
“It’s all about the stats……watching games is for arrogant Laker fans, you know that!”
What does that have to do with you??? Unless you feel like you fit the bill.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't play dumb
We both know that was a shot at me since you say the same thing to me on a repeated basis.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but when I do...........you play dumb too.....
I can admit it though.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure about the defensive liability
But Dirk absolutely lit it up against Denver offensively. He was basically all that Dallas had.
53% from the field, 91% from the line with 12FT per game, 11.6rpg, and 34.4 points per game against Denver. I will admit, I was on a basketball low during the 2nd round of the playoffs, so I didn’t watch much of this series. I don’t know who was guarding Dirk or who Dirk was guarding. I also don’t know if you are even talking about this series, but Dirk definitely wasn’t stopped here.
Defensively he might have been a liability and you might be right about 6’7 SFs giving him fits on offense, but it didn’t happen against Denver.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want to say i agree
if they can win 70 that means that they pretty much blew by all the teams, not to say some games would not be close. but with the coaching they have and the fact that they will still have kobe and paul and ron, and fisher (and x-factor odom), i just dont see them loosing a best of 7. against any tream.
maybe im just blinded by the purple and gold.
by true_lakerfan on Aug 25, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not being a homer.
Was there an NBA fan in the World who thought the 72-10 Bulls were going to get beat that year? Hell no. Why? Because they were already Champs who got that much better.
by wondahbap on Aug 25, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, we can both find examples
Spurs went 59-23 and won it all.
The next season improved to 63-19 and didn’t even make the finals.
The next season dropped to 58-24, lost the 1 seed, and won it all anyway.
And I never realized this. (Totally OT)
Hill went 62-20, and 59-23 with the Spurs. Then came David’s injury. He started the next year 3-15 and got canned, making room for Pop to come and finished the season 17-47.
Not only did David’s injury get them Duncan… it also got them Pop!
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know what you're saying
but 70 wins is a different animal.
by wondahbap on Aug 25, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know what you're saying
I just don’t think any 100% gurantees can ever be made!
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know that you know that I knew that you knew that we both knew.
Kinda like yesterday. Or was it the day before?
by wondahbap on Aug 25, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know that you know which day it was
I also know that you know that I know that you just wanted me to get going again!
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you want to talk stats, wondahbap is correct
a 70 win team has won the title 100% of the time. it’s only happened once but that record is 1 of 1.
by dach on Aug 26, 2009 12:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it also took them six games to beat the Seattle Supersonics
With a mildly injured Gary Payton, which was the only reason Payton did not guard Jordan in the first few games of the Finals.
But when he did,
“[In Game 4, Jordan had his] lowest output in a Finals game, much of it with Payton guarding him. Though afterwards, Jordan refused to give Payton credit, saying ‘No one can stop me, I can only stop myself. I missed some easy shots.’ The truth is, Jordan finds the NBA’s Defensive Player of the Year [Payton] annoying. He views the [young Payton] as impudent, and he would love to have a big game at [Payton’s] expense.” (NBA on NBC Preview, Game 5) – Wikipedia
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Aug 25, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
More on that
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199606120SEA.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996_finals.html
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Aug 25, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol wow, jordan has said some dickish stuff in his time. At least Kobe gives battier respect.
In Kobe we trust!
by robi s on Aug 26, 2009 1:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"you can't guard me"
lol Kobe doesn’t bash Battier in the media, but I’m pretty sure he didn’t like that NY Times article written about how Battier is the best defender against Kobe. Kobe spent the entire Houston series trying to prove that he figured out Battier.
Truth be told, Kobe probably thinks nobody can stop him either, only he can stop himself.
Then again, I think the mentality of “no one can stop me, only me” mentality is how all superstars think because if they meet a really good defender, they’ll find a way to work around the defender. I remember Bruce Bowen used to guard Kobe alright but Kobe figured him out, same with Raja Bell, same with Battier.
But I don’t believe Kobe has publicly ridiculed a defender (except maybe Ruben Patterson). If a defender does a good job, the next time they meet up, Kobe’ll burn them on the court. He may do a little swagger, shout “you can’t guard me” or do his little snarl, but he leaves that on the court and won’t bring it up in the media.
I think if there’s any player that probably said the most mean things in the media, it was Jordan, but he gets a pass apparently because he’s his airness :/
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Aug 26, 2009 1:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jordan got criticized in his time
History chooses to forget a lot of that stuff.
Chris Columbus slept with 10 year old boys
Custer effectively had his own troops murdered
Andrew Jackson’s great victory at NO occured after the war was over
Lincoln had his own slaves
Jordan was a prick quite often
People just choose to ignore a lot of these details.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Columbus slept with ten year-old boys? Ten of them?
Ugh.
And to think, he directed the two of the Harry Potter Films.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Aug 26, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and the Home Alone films
and “found” India … oops.
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Aug 26, 2009 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree Kobe has the mentality of no one can guard me. He so far he has been correct. Once people start calling you the Kobe stopper, Kobe is gonna be sure to try and light you up the next time he see’s you.
What I like however is that Kobe doesnt really flaunt that fact, he always compliments and says he respects his defender, and then says something along the lines of “yea, Person X is good, but I just try to take what they give me, if they give me space im going to shoot an open J, if they are too close, I’m going to drive to the hoop.”
its a much less dickish way of saying no one can guard me
In Kobe we trust!
by robi s on Aug 26, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going to try to phrase the question in a way that removes any home team bias
Let’s say that Cleveland wins 70 this year (not any more of a stretch than the Lakers doing it), and the Lakers win 67 or so. Would you think that Cleveland is the clear favorite?
by C.A. Clark on Aug 25, 2009 3:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Regular season matchups between the two?
If Lakers roflstomped a healthy Cavs team for two of those losses, then no. If Lakers went 0-2 against the Cavs, then yes.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 25, 2009 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
The total wins don’t mean a whole lot to the matchups that happen in the playoffs.
So, even if a team wins 70 games, which I definitely think is a possibility given the makeup of the NBA, they could still run up against a team that can beat them in the playoffs.
by C.A. Clark on Aug 25, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't underestimate the power of the 70-win season
So sayeth Darth Vader.
Sure it could happen. But I think it’s pretty darned unlikely that any given team would be favored to beat them. Even for the entire rest of the playoff balance to beat them.
People tend to think wins are wins. Ehh, sort of. But the difference between a 35-win team and a 40-win team is not so large. The difference between a 45-win team and a 50-win team is somewhat larger. That between a 55-win team and a 60-win team is quite large. And between a 65-win team and a 70-win team, it’s tremendous. Each succeeding win (without a matching loss) is that much more difficult to get, and that much more indicative of a superior team. On balance, I’d put the odds on a team that ended up first in the league with 65 wins odds of maybe 3-1 against winning the whole thing. With 70 wins, it’d probably be even money or possibly a bit better. I think those last five wins are a huge difference.
Incidentally, that’s why I think coaches that make 17-win improvements, but those improvements are from 30 wins to 47 wins—they have no business winning COY over a coach whose team went from 60 wins and a loss in the conference finals (say) to 67 wins and a title. The former sounds more impressive from a pure win count perspective, but the latter is much much more difficult.
by BrianTung on Aug 25, 2009 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Your points are all well taken
But I have to turn your own argument on itself. It’s true that wins are not just wins, that going from 65 to 70 is a lot harder than 45 to 50. But you are also assuming that one 65 win season = another 65 win season, when that might not be the case.
I think you could make the argument that 68 wins in the East is approximate to 70 wins in the West, simply because of the added number of times you play against truly elite teams, and the lesser number of times you play against truly bad teams.
by C.A. Clark on Aug 25, 2009 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm trying to say something stronger...
It’s that saying such and such could happen, or that one 65-win season might not be the same as another, is not saying a whole lot. Of course those things could happen, or might not be the same. The question, though, is even granting that a 70-win team could lose (of course they could lose), how much stronger is a 70-win team than a 65-win team. And the answer is heck of a lot, it’d be something that would for sure be borne out in the odds.
At any rate, we’re only talking about one team winning 70—the Lakers. And if they win 70 games, even if that doesn’t quite equal a 70-win team coming from the East, I bet it puts them at even-money favorites or so.
by BrianTung on Aug 25, 2009 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
First of all, great post! one of the more enjoyable ones on here.
as for 70 wins, i think these lakers definately have the potential to be one of the greatest teams of all time (provided as you said that everyone stays healthy). Aside from the point guard position, we have a pretty exceptional player at all positions. And although D-fish may not be an NBA star, he has proved his worth in big playoff moments year after year.
Every year I watch each game hoping for 70, but each year I find myself giving up on it a little after the All-star break. You were right in saying that its doable seeing how the number of elite teams are few in number. They dont really worry me since the Lakers always seem to come to play for big games, its the bad teams the lakers have to worry about. We are notorious for playing to the level of our opponents, and we often make games way more interesting than the should ever be.
I think you said it right, the key for 70 is our bench. As much as I try to defend those guys on the mob squad, I’m gonna just be blunt and say it: They were TERRIBLE. But you made a great point, this year we got some guys who have something to play for. Farmar is on a contract year. Morrison is in danger of falling out of the league, and Brown still hasn’t gotten the opportunity to show what he can do. All that in mind, I think the Lakers bench is going to play with alot more sense of urgency. What worries me is that two key parts of our bench Sasha and Luke have no motivation. Luke knows he is never going to be a starter again, and already has a big paycheck, and Sasha doesnt have to worry about being the machine again for another 2 years.
There were way to many moments that we had a huge lead, and our bench just gave it away. Hopefully with a healthy starting lineup, Odom/Pau will get some more time to steady that second unit, and allow them to get some more open shots.
So to answer the question of what are the chances of us getting 70 wins, I would say we have a 69% chance. Chance of repeating as champions, I will give us a 82% chance.
In Kobe we trust!
by robi s on Aug 25, 2009 4:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Barring everything goes smoothly
I rather the Lakers just win 60+ games, get HCA and win the championship.
That’s my wish anyway.
I really don’t need a record breaking season or anything. Don’t get me wrong, it’ll be sweet if that does happen (70+wins) but it’s not necessary. I rather they get the chip and repeat than the 70+wins.
But the odds in repeating are always slim. Still, I have hopes that Drew will revert back to his January self and Shannon will step it up as our backup PG and Ammo because our surprise 3-pt specialist.
They’ll have a good chance at accomplishing both, seeing that the WCF is still quite brutal 2-8 and every team will be duking it out, so they might get the same results this year like last with them being #1 over everyone else by 5+ games again. But that could also work against my argument where 70 wins isn’t possible because the WCF is so brutal. Plus, the Lakers, our good old Lakers, don’t like to bring “it” when they face lesser competition, I’m fully expecting losses against cruddy teams that make us scratch our heads. Also expecting some close losses and once in a blue moon 10+ point losses. I don’t think the Lakers ever suffered a true “beat-down” besides the two times at the Blazers, the one time at the Nuggets, and the one time at home against the Hornets, during regular season.
60 wins is a safe bet. 70, not so much.
Repeating is different. Like Kobe said, it’s so much more difficult reaching the Finals every year because you never know what will happen. But I can see it happening if Drew becomes the beast we know he can be and saw glimpses of. Again, I see our hopes of repeating on the bench being solid, Drew evolving, and Ron’s chemistry fit with the team. If that all works and nobody is injured, REPEAT!
I
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Aug 25, 2009 4:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
lol i wouldnt mind if the lakers only won 44 games and still won the title. teams dont play for the best record, they play to increase their chances of winning the championship.
I heard a really cool idea a few years back, when Dallas had to play GS first round. The idea was that the teams with the top 4 records would be given the opportunity to chose which of the bottom four teams they wanted to play. The team with the best record getting to chose first obviously.
I liked the idea because a) it really rewards teams for having the best record and b) think about how much more intense rivalries and the matchups would be if teams got to chose who they played. It’s like the ultimate slap in the face for a team to say to another team we want to play you cuz we feel we could beat you with ease. And then their could be more hype/debate around which teams the best teams should chose.
Of course it would never happen since the bottom 4 teams have no incentive to finish ahead of eachother.
In Kobe we trust!
by robi s on Aug 26, 2009 1:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
I remember there was a round maybe this year or last year, might have been last year when Dallas was trying its darnest to avoid the Lakers in the 8th seed or something and insulted the Hornets or something. And when the Hornets found out, they got all pissed and were saying Dallas should be careful for what it wished for. Come first round the Hornets beat up the Mavs pretty badly.
So yeah, lesson learned: be careful of what you wish for.
Sometimes choosing the team you want can backfire on you. Like you said, robi, it’ll give the chosen team incentive to upset the higher seed.
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Aug 26, 2009 2:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh that was good stuff
I wish the playoffs would just be a 1-16 seed. I don’t care if the Finals is 2 West or 2 East teams to be quite honest, in fact, I think it would be better.
Going back to your thread about the 10 best teams not to win. Were the Lakers/Kings and Lakers/Blazers series better, or did people prefer the 4-0 and 4-1 massacre of the crappy East teams?
Also, why does the 3 Seed in the East get a .500 opponent in round 1 and the 2 seed in the West gets a .600 opponent? It’s silly, and the air travel isn’t that much more brutal for most teams. Plus, both teams have to travel to each others place, so no one team will have the advantage.
Give me 1-16 seeds! Don’t send top teams home in round 1 because of their conference!
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it would be more fair to the better teams in the west to have a 1-16 format, but: ….
the league makes money from creating rivalries, which are formed from playing the same teams over and over again in the playoffs. For a fan, its fun and creates more interest having anxiety/hate/ SOME FEELING about certain teams. The lakers got alot of buzz for regular season games when they have rivalries with the celtics, blazers, kings, spurs, phoenix, and now Celtics again.
in addition, the whole regular season format would have to be changed, where you play everybody 3 times instead of the east only twice.That is gonna wear and tear on the players,
In Kobe we trust!
by robi s on Aug 26, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a Laker fan
I honestly don’t like series that drags out. Kills my heart, you know? I have already anxiety in life, I don’t really want to be having a heart attack for the Lakers. It’s what pissed me off the entire Houston series.
While those Lakers/Kings and Lakers/Blazers series were a lot of fun in hindsight (because the Lakers won), when I was watching them, they were not fun at all.
To keep my heart nice and healthy and my face acne-free, the 4-0 and 4-1 massacre of the Eastern teams were easier on my heart and fun to watch during the time. In retrospect, not so much fun.
Although I guess to a casual NBA fan the Lakers/Kings and Lakers/Blazers games were much more fun to watch due to the drama and the intensity those series presented. You could really tell what a dogfight those series were and the matchup problems each team presented for each other. The 2001 and 2002 Finals would be a bore. Any western team (be it the Blazers, King, Lakers) most likely would have steamrolled the 76ers or the Nets. The Eastern conference was truly that much weaker than the Western conference (which also had the Spurs waiting in the wings should the Blazers/Kings/Lakers had failed to advance to the Finals).
But hey, as long as the Lakers win, I’ll take the boring wins. Any Laker win is good in my books :)
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Aug 27, 2009 12:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
completely agree.
I felt I was going to have a heart attack in every single on of those close games, but in retrospect those games are the only one s that i still remember somewhat clearly. For instance, who remember the game 1 blow out vs orl better than the missed lee layup, and fishers two 3’s
In Kobe we trust!
by robi s on Aug 27, 2009 2:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you also have to remember
No one replayed Game 1, in all likelihood, unless they like watching Game 1 blowouts. It was a long series of Kobe pick-and-rolls to an unguarded midrange jumper. (The Game 5 blowout was at least a title-clincher.) The middle games got replayed the hell out (well, OK, maybe Game 3 was only replayed a lot in Orlando—it was close, but not as dramatic as Games 2 and 4). So the games were memorable, plus people got a lot of reinforcement.
by BrianTung on Aug 27, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe After Thirty
http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2009/08/thirtysomething/
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Aug 25, 2009 4:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It feels like yesterday
young Kobester was 18 and announcing he was going to the NBA.
good times.
that was a really nice article btw. usually SLAM writes really negative stuff involving Kobe.
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Aug 25, 2009 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree the article was a great tribute
i too remember the exictement of getting kobe on the lakers, little did i know what was instore for us.
he is my Michael Jordan
by true_lakerfan on Aug 25, 2009 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Technically.........
he was 17 when he made that announcement, but I get the idea.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 25, 2009 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oops my bad
17 when he announced he was going to the NBA
I forgot that Kobe’s an august baby. He was 18 as a rookie :)
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Aug 25, 2009 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Summer B-Days always get the shaft :-(
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a spring baby
so I always forget that there are students that are still 17 when they graduate from high school.
are you a summer baby by chance, Zaig? :)
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Aug 26, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I might be :-)
But I’m not at all bitter about having to wait 8 months longer than most of my friends (stupid fall people) to drive, go to bars, go to casinos, go to clubs, and so on.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's just a baby....
That was a joke Zaig, relax.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 26, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also with the Lakers schedule
It pretty much works against us winning 70+ wins.
First half is all mostly at home, then by January/February we go on that monster road trip that we’ll be lucky to win all of them like we did last year. But the point is, even though the first half is at home, this is our Lakers we’re talking about and they tend to snooze against lesser competition. So I’m fully expecting WTF losses in the beginning of the year, maybe a handful like 3 to 5. Then from January to March is when the season gets really difficult, so I’m expecting at least 10 losses in that span.
That’s 15 already.
70+ wins is definitely out of reach.
Also … there might be an “adjustment” period of time with implementing Ron in our starting lineup. I remember during the reg season how much we tinkered with out lineup. Even though we didn’t lose too many games through the ever changing lineup, by the time we stabilized and started with a set lineup, 70+ wins were definitely out of reach.
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Aug 25, 2009 4:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed on the schedule
The schedule does the Lakers no favors when it comes to winning 70 games. That’s why I don’t talk about it at all. I even took a look at which teams the Lakers play only three times, it’s Memphis, New Orleans, Portland, and I can’t remember the 4th, but it wasn’t a good team.
And of the portland games, its two road, one at home. That, combined with the road heavy latter portion of the schedule, certainly makes it a more difficult challenge.
by C.A. Clark on Aug 25, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention the ridiculous amounts of back to backs
I think we have like 20+ back to backs and we face really good teams on those 2nd games of the back to backs.
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Aug 25, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I saw on TrueHoop...
B2Bs are up across the league. Last year, 20 B2Bs would have led the league. This year, it puts the Lakers in the middle of the pack, maybe a bit higher than not, but not in the top 10, I don’t think. A few teams have like 25 B2Bs. Sounds ridiculous to me. But in any case we’ll be getting a lot of other teams on their back end of a B2B.
Anyway, I think 70 wins is unlikely (probably put the odds against it at 100-1, although good luck at getting Vegas to pay off at better than 50-1), but not out of reach by any means.
by BrianTung on Aug 25, 2009 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what it was
intuitive mentioned what I was trying to say:
the Lakers have more back to back games than games where they face opponents on the 2nd night of a back to back
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Aug 26, 2009 2:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the Lakers have more back to back games than games where they face opponents on the 2nd night of a back to back
by intuitive on Aug 25, 2009 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's what I was trying to say lol
I remember there was a post by timbo or someone analyzing how difficult the Lakers schedule was.
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Aug 26, 2009 2:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lakers actually had a -11 IIRC
Which probably gives them the toughest in the NBA. B2Bs and the 4 teams you only play 3 times are the only real ways to determine how tough a schedule is. Road trips… not so sure since for every long road trip you have a long home trip.
In those 2 measures though the Lakers don’t look that good, when they look above average last year. Cleveland’s schedule is pretty nice though… if Shaq fits they would be the more likely team to improve on their regular season record.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 26, 2009 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow, great post
you guys help me see basketball on a whole new level.
gratzi
by true_lakerfan on Aug 25, 2009 6:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it depends on the other teams.
If it’s a tight race for possible 70-wins in the other contenders, the lakers might be motivated enough to strive for 70. Otherwise, I think they’ll probably be unmotivated/lethargic/out of sync for more than just 12 games. I would not be surprised if we got swept by another eastern conference scrub team again this year.
by Nostance on Aug 25, 2009 6:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
motivation and focus is the key factor.
if the talent level on this years squad is comparable to last years (artest vs. ariza, etc.) then the key variable is the ability of this team to focus. last years squad notoriously lost focus throughout the season, well into the playoffs (i threw my remote at the tv after that rockets game 4). the ability for that same squad to suddenly bring it every game is the biggest question mark to achieve 70 wins.
that bulls team that hit 72 was pure professionalism and focus. growth from farmar and/or vujacic is not a given. bynum fulfilling his potential is a big unknown. even with growth from all of them, given their history of lapses, i’d say 70 wins is highly unlikely.
if it happens, no complaints.
by dach on Aug 26, 2009 12:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chandler "can be a great rebounder, but his defense is too highlight oriented (going for the block)"
Er, hi… hornets fan here, and I couldn’t help but replying to correct you on this one. Did you mix up Chandler and Okafor? Chandler is the exact opposite of what you described – his block totals have always been quite low for an athletic, defensive-minded 7 foot center, but he’s an elite interior defender. Okafor is the guy who gets a lot of blocks but on the whole is a decent but not spectacular defender. Charlotte was a great defensive team who added a great defensive player, though they did lose some offense – an area they were already weak in. That said, Chandler wont be “exposed” without CP… he won’t have the sky-high FG% (by that I mean 60%+) – but the he’ll still get putbacks, dunks, maybe a few oops from Felton and still do that a very efficient rate.
by Caleb462 on Aug 25, 2009 7:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not gonna lie
that statement is far too much of an opinion based off of my small sample size watching Chandler play for me to stand behind it to firmly.
However, if isn’t going to be “exposed”, it is only because everybody already knows that he doesn’t have much of an offensive game to begin with so there is nothing to expose. And I firmly stand behind the fact that that trade hurt Charlotte’s chances of fielding a team that gives the Lakers problems.
by C.A. Clark on Aug 25, 2009 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly...
The fact that his offensive game is limited is not a secret. He gets easy buckets and garbage buckets. Did that in Chicago, did it in New Orleans, and will do it in Charlotte. What was different about playing with CP was that his FG% shot up to over 60% – a rarity for even big men. But his per 36 scoring numbers have been about the same for most of his career, and his last year in Chicago his FG% was a not quite 60% but a still very high 56%.
Anyway… so Okafor was a big reason LA had problems with Charlotte? I didn’t watch any of those games so I dont know.
by Caleb462 on Aug 26, 2009 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did his part
Honestly, I’ve watched every game they’ve lost to Charlotte over the past few years and I can’t explain why they struggle. It’s just one of those things where nothing seems to go right against them.
by C.A. Clark on Aug 26, 2009 12:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the problem with this blog
It assumes something which not only is questionable, but in my opinion is all but gauranteed to be different.
It assumes that the Lakers have the same mental attitude towards the season as last year. This will, in my opinion, definitely not be true. Last year we were coming off of a painful LOSS in the NBA finals. The Lakers, from the go, were out to prove that they were the best team in the NBA. They did this by trying 100% effort against all of the good to really good teams. Fact: The lakers had a better record against elite teams than they did against average teams. http://www.82games.com/0809/TPSORT14.HTM. In my opinion, this was due to their loss the prior year, and in effort to “prove” to themselves and others, that they were an elite team in the NBA. This year will be very different. This year they have nothing to prove anymore. Thus, they will take the regular season as it comes —as a pre-season to the playoffs.
This is not new to Phil Jackson teams. Michael Jordan came back to the Bulls for half the year, the year prior to their 2nd 3-peet. With Jordan, the Bulls were ousted in the playoffs by the Knicks (if memory serves), i think in the 95 season. It was the next year (the first year of the second 3-peet) that the Bulls set that all time winning record of 72-10. This was their “prove it” year. The next 2 championships came with regular seasons with lower win marks even though they were just as dominant. I think because their mental attitude had changed —there was nothing left to “prove,” the regular season was again just a pre-season.
I think Phil Jackson brings this team out next year slowly. He will not push 100% effort in the big games and pull out all the stops (like playing Kobe a lot of minutes in the big games). There is nothing to prove. In order to avoid burn-out, he will run the team as a 100 meter sprinter runs the 100. They don’t start at 100% effort. They start at semi effort and build towards a certain point increasing their effort as they get closer to that point. For the lakers, “that point” will be the playoffs. Once the 100m sprinter gets to “that point” (again, it could be at 50m or 75m for a sprinter, but in this analogy, for the Lakers “that point” is the end of the regular season), he is at full speed and his goal is to sustain this full speed while coasting to the finish. The lakers will do the same in my opinion this year.
They will start slow and build as the season goes further and further hoping to platue as the season comes to an end and coast through at full speed through the playoffs. This will reduce the potential of burn out after coming off of a hectic 2 years —2 NBA finals and an Olympics for the 2 top players, Kobe/Gasol.
Phil Jackson is very smart. Much smarter than the average coach. He is into “energy” and “flow.” This will be his goal, in my opinion.
by plyka on Aug 25, 2009 9:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
nice save..........
you almost got a cyber-beatdown.:-)
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Aug 25, 2009 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
70 wins?!?!? This Laker team with a back-up PG named Sasha, a backup 3 named Luke, and a PG that will be moving to the wheelchair league two years hence?
You have GOT to be kidding me!!!
On top of that, and I’m just making this up, this team is likely to lose at least half a season of one of the following due to injury, statistically speaking: Pau, Kobe, Ron Ron, Drew, LO.
The point being: VERY shallow and could hit the rocks at any moment if one of the core goes down…
70 wins is ludicrous and if any of the 34% who think the Lakers are gonna win 70 games care to put $5 on the table in a friendly little wager, I’d LOVE to make some beer money.
As for the repeat title… That’s probably statistically more likely. There is going to be some good competition in both Conferences this year, make no mistake, but if the Lakers are “one of the 10 teams” that have a shot, their odds are (better than) 1-in-10, eh? That’s not too shabby.
But 70 games, for the second time in NBA history?!?!?! HA!!!
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Aug 26, 2009 9:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
............READ: Backup SG named Sasha...........
Backup Point Guard is UPS (or Jordan), of course, neither of whom will give opposing NBA coaches nightmares this year…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Aug 26, 2009 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a Laker fan I have faith that they can do it. As a gamblin man I wouldn’t take that bet. Not because of losing 5 miserable dollars but I wouldn’t want to give a fan from an opposing team the privilage of having those bragging rights.
Also, the following statement sounds more like wishful thinking and also applies to every team in the NBA.
The point being: VERY shallow and could hit the rocks at any moment if one of the core goes down…
You can point to the holes in the Lakers game but the other contending team also have their short comings:
Boston - Rondo can’t shoot
Cleveland - well they got Shaq and he didn’t solve their perimeter defense issues and they still are going to use that 5-1 offense were everyone just watches Lebron.
Orlando - Still don’t have the length to rebound especially against Boston and Dwight still has no killer instinct to lead the team.
Spurs - Well your comment above about health applies more to them than anyone on this list. But they still will have rebounding issues against the Lakers and now we have Artest to put on Ginobli.
"When I walked into the locker room on my first day as a Laker and saw my gold uniform hanging there, I cried." - Magic Johnson (Best Laker Ever)
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Aug 26, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other things about the other 4
Boston – No backup PG, Rondo’s health (mental and physical) CRITICAL. Ainge antagonistic wth the public criticism, and Rondo wants an extension
Cavs – I’d say Parker helps address the perimeter defense issue, but nothing addressed the Mike Brown lack of coaching ability issue
Orlando – SVG wars with/alienates his players – stupid. Howard spending the summer working on his TV career, not his shooting
Spurs – Am i the only one not sold on Jeffeson?
by nba is the worst on Aug 27, 2009 6:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Piggybacking on the Mike Brown thing
The Cavs main issue going into next year is the loss of Kuester as their assistant coach. Dude was basically their offensive coordinator and hand a lot to do with why the Cavs went from plain terrible do pretty good on offense last year. Incorporating Shaq without Kuester could be rough.
by C.A. Clark on Aug 27, 2009 7:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
WTF
Team’s have offensive coordinators? So If Asisstants scout players and teams and a team also has a defensive coordinator….what the hell does a Head Coach do?
"When I walked into the locker room on my first day as a Laker and saw my gold uniform hanging there, I cried." - Magic Johnson (Best Laker Ever)
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Aug 27, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
what else?
Manage egos! (I thought you were a Lakers fan?!)
I’ve heard of offensive and defensive “coordinators” in basketball, but it seems like a recent development (in the NBA) as far as I can tell. Obviously they’ve been around in football for years. But at any rate, it’d be a good thing if they were on the same page—that’s one thing a head coach would do, coordinate the coordinators. Also HCs tend to actually command in-game adjustments, don’t they?
by BrianTung on Aug 27, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is just Phil
who is great at managing egos. In my opinion there are two coaches in the league who don’t care about managing egos. Pop and Phil. They just coach. This league is controlled by the players and not the coaches. It isn’t college. Over the years as the NBA has made more money players have gained more control. But Phil understands his players but they adjust to his coaching style. With players like AI and Lebron, if they went to management and said get rid of my coach or else that would happen. But although the Lakers and Spurs could still win, it would much tougher to win titles without them.
"When I walked into the locker room on my first day as a Laker and saw my gold uniform hanging there, I cried." - Magic Johnson (Best Laker Ever)
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Aug 27, 2009 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Red discusses this in his book
Basically he LOLs at the insane numbers of assistants that everyone has these days.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
by Zaig on Aug 28, 2009 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
little surprise there
Because obviously that puts his own achievements in a better light. That guy was a master of self-promotion.
by BrianTung on Sep 5, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The coordinator is not nearly in common in basketball as it is in football
But certain teams who have coaches that are better known for one side of the ball will let an assistant coach handle the other side.
It’s also not at all resembling an official title, like in football. More of a designation
The only three I can think of off the top of my head are Kuester for Cleveland, Thibodeau (sp?) in Boston, and Rambis was effectively the defensive coordinator for the Lakers last year. Implementing the Strong Side Zone was his job last year.
by C.A. Clark on Aug 27, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Timbo
BTW…when the Lakers win back to back I will buy you a beer myself so we could celebrate.
"When I walked into the locker room on my first day as a Laker and saw my gold uniform hanging there, I cried." - Magic Johnson (Best Laker Ever)
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Aug 26, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Deal. And when the Blazers win, I will buy you six!
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Aug 28, 2009 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s no way the Lakers are winning 70 games this season. I figure there are three main reasons why they, and any other team, will be derailed from winning 70:
- Injuries. Bynum has yet to prove that he can remain healthy and effective the entire season. And I wouldn’t be surprised to see Odom miss a few games here and there.
- Ron Artest. Artest is still unproven in a Lakers uniform. Yeah we all agree that he’s a surefire upgrade over Ariza, but you never know what can happen. When’s the last time that Artest has been relegated to the 3rd or even 4th scoring option on a team? Plus, while the team is still working out the kinks with Artest they may very easily drop some winnable games early on.
- Other Elite teams. The other four elite teams in the league (Cavaliers, Celtics, Magic, Spurs) are going to give us a lot to deal with, in particular the Spurs since they’re in the WC.
I have total faith in the Lakers and in their ability to repeat. Despite my comments above about Artest, I actually think things are going to work out real well with him. Kobe will no longer have to chase around the top dog on the other teams, and I think Artest will really accept his role as specialty defender.
You wanna know how great baseball is? The greatest basketball player ever left his sport to play baseball.
by Jesse S. on Aug 26, 2009 11:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
One time in league history
And some people think THIS Laker team will be the 2nd?
The chances for that type of perfect storm of varables to come to pass approach zero…
Even if the Lakers had a tier 1 PG, or a servicable backup SG, it would still be ridiculous in a repeat situation.
The Lakers’ “less to prove” factor combined with the natural reaction by the rest of the teams’ “prove we can beat the champs” motivation, and the Spurs/Mavs/B;azers improvement will make matching last year’s win total difficult…
by nba is the worst on Aug 27, 2009 6:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Think of it this way
the Lakers were already a mid 60 win team before they got Artest and with Bynum injured
if artest is a good boy and no one gets injured thats a few more wins
the kitties and portland are the only teams that I think could beat LA twice and even they might not (note neither of those teams is a contender but portland is a west playoff team)
I honestly don’t think any other team except MAYBE the Spurs or Magic cold beat the Lakers more than once. But assuming that those 4 teams all beat the Lakers twice the Lakers can still lose 4 games and still have 70 wins. The Lakers will kill the Cavs and I don’t think the Celdicks could beat them either. So the only teams left are non contenders and if the Laker bench plays like it did 2 years ago who could beat them?
So unless LA somehow loses to Portland or San Antonio in the playoffs (and the Lakers will probably have home court advantage) the only team in the east that could make the finals that cold beat them is the Magic and I don’t think they’ll make it PLUS any team that wins 70 games and has the best player in the game is the easy pick to win it all.
Three factors:
1. Andrew Bynum’s health along with the lakers big name stars’ health
2. Artest is a good boy
3. the bench plays like we all know it can
these are the only three things that I think could keep us from 70+ and the title
and for people who think that’s too many variables SUCK ON THIS:
The Bench played incredible 2 years ago
Kobe and phil will keep Ron-Ron under control and all Ron wants is a cookie (puppet commercial)
and the team is so deep Bynum doesn’t need to play an ass load of minutes to be effective so his chances of hurting his knee go down
by KobeisGod on Aug 29, 2009 9:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Damn I missed alot
So I just voted for the Lakers winning under 70 games but winning the NBA title because I just don’t see the Lakers accomplishing both this season with the newly acquired Ron Artest, its possible and if they do it then great but all thats matters to me is them walking away Champs in the end, forget the regular season.
There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.
by BrittneyM on Aug 30, 2009 11:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Idea that any team in the west is going to win 70 is just silly.
If Duncan & Parker go down for the year in the 1st week along with BRoy & LMA & Mello & Billups then you might have a shot.
He did it! Yes he did!
by We-B-Dunkin on Sep 7, 2009 11:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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