Build your all time NBA team.....and defend it.
by pslakerfan on Aug 19, 2009 4:50 PM PDT
92 comments
We as Laker fans know how great our franchise is, and has been for decades. I have heard a million times that you could create an all-time great team from Laker players only. What about non-Lakers?
So here is my idea.......Create and all-time Laker team from only players who's career was defined by being Lakers (yes to Shaq, yes to Kareem, no to Wilt or Karl Malone). Then create an all-time NBA team from non-Lakers (same rules, if the player was defined by being a Laker, you can't use him). Then decide which team is better, and defend it.
I would imagine this could create some interesting discussions between Laker fans and non-Laker fans.
Since there are a lot of players to choose, and difficult decisions to make, lets do top 8 players. One starting lineup (realistic, not 4 centers and a guard, etc), and three bench players (preferably 1 guard, 1 forward, and 1 center).
Have fun, and keep it civil..............sort of.
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Ok, I will start......
My Laker team,
PG Magic……..duh
SG Kobe………nod over West (athleticism)
C Shaq………close nod over Kareem (more dominant, overpowering)
F Worthy……one big game = Big game James
F Baylor…….underrated, overshadowed by West.
Bench
C Kareem…..duh
G West……..duh
F Gasol……..tough call here, but I can’t think of a better 3rd all time Laker forward.
Yeah, I know Gasol’s career hasn’t really been defined by the Lakers, but we all know it will be.
Non-Laker team….
G Oscar Robertson…….more of a SG, but he’s got to be here.
G MJ………duh
C Wilt……..Early 60’s Wilt of course
F Duncan……..hurts, hurts, almost went with Malone
F Bird………….god that hurts, but I gotta be realistic
Bench
G Starbury……(actually Reggie Miller, just seeing if you are paying attention)
C Olajuwon…….(you’re welcome DreamShake)
F Malone…….close with Barkley, but not quite.
Anyway those are my teams. I think the starting lineups are almost dead equal, with minor advantages at each position…………however I think the Laker bench is a little bit better >>> Kareem > Olajuwon, West > Miller, and Malone > Pau.
Lakers win!!!!!
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
For anyone that takes my list as a diss at Lebron James......
It isn’t meant that way. I just don’t think he has been around long enough to make the list. If I did this list in 5 years, obviously I would include him.
Also Pau probably hasn’t been around long enough either, but I needed another forward and a little height as well.
My list, my rules to break :-)
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Just for fun, the "experts" take on these teams by position
As usual, take “experts” with a grain of salt, and they didn’t do SF that I could find.
Magic 9.8, Oscar 8.4. (If you take out the one total idiot who didn’t vote Oscar as a top 10pg, this is a 9.1)
Lakers +1.4.
Kobe 8.5, Jordan 10.
Lakers -0.1
Shaq 7.1, Wilt 8.65
Lakers -1.65
West 8.35, Miller 3.05 (Gervin or Drexler would have been better options)
Lakers +3.65
Kareem 8.7, The Dream 6.5
Lakers by 5.85
Gasol 0, Malone 8.9.
Lakers -3.05
Here’s where it gets sticky.
Worthy, Baylor are all 0s, both no doubt in the SF vote that I never found. But even a Laker fan would be crazy to try and compare Worthy/Baylor to Duncan/Bird. (Duncan led the PF vote btw.) The Lakers, despite being crazy deep at guard/center, can’t compete at the Forward spots. (Yes Baylor/Worthy were both awesome, but not on the level of the all-time greats.)
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
lakers:
pg magic johnson
sg jerry west
sf kobe bryant
pf pao gasol
c kareem abdul jabbar
bench:
f james worthy
c shaquille o’neal
g elgin baylor
nba team:
pg john stockton
sg michael jordan
sf larry bird
pf karl malone
c wilt chamberlain
bench:
g: julius erving
f tim duncan
c hakeem olajuwon
comparing my rosters, i’d say the nba team is clearly better at the forward position. the rest is pretty much close. if i had to pick, i’d probably say the nba team is better, because they have an big advantage at a crucial, pf, position.
I can't argue with much of your list......
Interesting that you went with Malone instead of Duncan as a starter (PtR will not be pleased). I though of Dr. J, but I went with Reggie Miller just because I felt I needed a little more outside shooting.
Also notice you went with Pau as a starter. Personally I kinda agree, I just didn’t want to upset any of the purists. Shame on me for selling out. Kudos.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
*thought
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
LOL pfchangs? That's a new one.
I have heard PMSlakerfan though…….kinda funny.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
if i can’t include wilt then here is my revision
nba team:
pg stockton
sg jordan
sf bird
pf malone
c russell
bench:
g erving
f duncan
c olajuwon
You can include Wilt, I just meant not as a Laker
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
A little cheating with Kobe at SF, but I will say OK.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Sure
G: Magic- Duh
G: Kobe- Nod over West, sure
F: Baylor
F: Gasol
C: Kareem
C: Shaq
F: Worthy
G West
Same as PS, only different starters/bench.
PG: Oscar
SG: Jordan
SF: Lebron (Better than Bird ever was in a single season, just needs the time.)
PF: Duncan
C: Wilt
G: Gervin
F: Malone
C: Hakeem
So
PG: Lakers an edge, based on Magic playing tougher opponents and both dominating everyone they played
SG: Non Lakers easy win here
SF: Yes, non Lakers win here as well.
PF: Non Lakers easily enough
C: Wash
Bench:
G: West over Gervin
F: Malone over Worthy
C: Now… Shaq dominated the game more. On a team of All-Stars I’d rather have Hakeem though due to his passing and mid range game. Not sure how to vote here. Wash?
Either way, Lakers are beat easily enough at the starting spots outside of Magic. Lakers are even on the bench, but that’s not nearly enough.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
PG: Magic
SG: West
SF: Kobe
PF: Rambis
C: O’Neal
Bench:
G: Fisher
G: Scott
F: Baylor
F: Worthy
C: Abdul-Jabbar
verus
PG: Stockton
SG: Jordan
SF: Bird
PF: Duncan
C: Wilt
Bench:
G: Robertson
G: Isiah Thomas
F: Pippen
F: Barkley
F: Karl Malone
C: Bill Russell
C: Olajuwon
—
Ok, so first off, I included Rambis merely because our franchise has lacked for a long time a great PF. I won’t include Gasol because he’s only spent a year-and-a-half as a Laker. But when it’s all said and done, I imagine he’ll be remembered for his Laker years over any other. I also start Kobe at SF, because I don’t really think you can have West or Kobe coming off the bench, it kills matchups and scoring power.
However, that being said, the Non-Lakers have the edge. They have more talent to pool from, can destroy us at PF, and even at SF. While the Lakers team would be a high scoring bunch, in a tight game, the Non-Lakers would be more likely to get a stop than the Lakers roster. This thinking is even why I placed O’Neal as the starter over Kareem, simply for the defense.
"The problem actually is that PER is a extra-long, double high wagon load of horse crap." - timbo (7/3/09)
this is going just by my personal favorites of who id like on my team
PG Magic – no contest
SG West
SF Kobe
PF Gasol
C Wilt
bench
pg van exel
sg eddie jones
sf baylor
pf worthy (im aware he’s out of position)
c shaq
kareem gets no love from me cuz he’s wasnt very nice when i met him
nba:
Magic
Jordan
bird
duncan
wilt
bench: nash, west, kobe, lebron, dr. j, malone, russel
In Kobe we trust!
GUESS WHAT, THERE ARE!
“Create and all-time Laker team from only players who’s career was defined by being Lakers (yes to Shaq, yes to Kareem, no to Wilt or Karl Malone). Then create an all-time NBA team from non-Lakers (same rules, if the player was defined by being a Laker, you can’t use him).”
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
All-time
I can only include players that I have actually seen, so I only go back to the mid-70’s.
All-Time Lakers (remember this is built as a team that would win)
C- Kareem
PF-Lamar Odom
SF-Worthy
SG-Kobe
PG-Magic
Reserves—Micheal Cooper,Shaq,Jamaal Wilkes
My reasoning is this. Magic, Kobe, Odom,Cooper give 3 position versatility for matchup advantages. Either run,run,run (Magic, Kobe,Coop,Worthy,Odom, Magic & Odom playing in low post) or half court ( Shaq or Kareem or even both, as Kareem could post on the weakside out to 15 feet with his hook, Jamaal, Kobe baseline to top of key, Worthy slashing, Magic orchestrating)
Unstoppable team—2 lights out offensive players in Kareem, Kobe, 2nd most dominant post man in history Shaq, All defense in Coop. Kobe, Jamaal, Kareem, w/ Magic and Odom playing the doubles and passing lanes (remember Magic was always a league leader in steals) rebound pass out 5 seconds score. Wash and repeat.
Now what team could compete from the rest of the league ( thats even funny to think about. 1 franchise having so many great, great players)
NBA Team
C-Hakeem
PF-Duncan
SF-Bird
SG-Jordan
PG-Isiah
Reserves—Scottie Pippin,Dennis Rodman,Kevin Mchale
This team was built to be able to play the Lakers.
The Dream, Mchale, Duncan and Rodman would not make scoring in low post as easy as it seemed. W/ Micheal and Pippin in backcourt, oh my, any combo of 5 is lockdown defense. Clutch play across the board probably equal to Laker team.
Key Laker advantage against this team would be Shaq in low post and anyone Bird is guarding. Kobe vs. Jordan a push, Magic was defended better than anyone by Pippin and Rodman, but in his prime Magic still dominates all catagories. Hakeem will score against both Laker centers, but cannot check either without help. This team must play half court game or will get worked as Duncan, Mchale and Bird can work wonders if they are not chasing Worthy, Wilkes etc. So many left out, Dr.J, Archibald, Big E,Barkley, Malone,Walton in his prime,Moses Malone. None of these guys played enough defense however to be able to play w/ these Lakers
What a matchup this series would be. Lakers in 6 w/ homecourt, 7 without.
by fins on Aug 20, 2009 8:29 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Damn, I love how you did this one.....
Screw the star power, go with the match ups, mis-matches, defensive lineups, and chemistry. I love it. Way to put some thought into it.
I never even thought of Odom, but he does really create some unusual mis-matches.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Kareem
One thing I have to say is I do not think many post’s comments about Kareem reflect Kareem in his prime, 76-80. Kareem was a 6 repeat 6 time MVP, 2 time Finals MVP, and won 6 rings. He was an unstoppable offensive force often causing other teams to triple team him, would get 12-14 rebounds a game, 3 blocks and 4 assists and did not need any help against any other center of his time, which was the age of centers. Is in any argument for greatest overal player of all-time.
Funny Lakers have at least 5 who are in that argument. Magic(my vote), Kareem. Kobe, West, Baylor. Amazing.
The league has Jordan, Wilt, Russell,Bird. Interesting.
True. It is hard to be one of the greatest of all time and also fairly underrated.......
I only wonder how he would have done against the size and strength of Shaq. Kareem vs. Shaq in their primes would be Epic!!!
PtR won’t like you omitting Duncan from your GOAT argument………tough shit.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Ehh...
Only Jordan is really in the argument for greatest of all time
Kareem, Wilt, and Magic are in tier 2
Nobody else really comes close. To be the best of all time you have to dominate the game like nobody else could. Kobe, West, Baylor, Russell, and Bird were all great players, but NONE of them dominated the game at will.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
ding, ding, ding.........."Captain My opinion is Fact" is back
see, this is why you piss people off. We don’t have a problem with your opinions, but you always present your opinion as fact. That is the issue here. Is Jordan the GOAT? Maybe. Probably. But it is far from a fact.
Why can’t you just say that you THINK he is the GOAT, and a lot of people agree with you. Both true statements. You do the same thing with Kobe vs. Lebron, Brandon Roy, etc…..
Of course you will disagree, I would expect nothing less, but seriously, can’t you just phrase stuff as an opinion once in a while?
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
No, my opinions just have a basis in reality
People have the right to an opinion, but that doesn’t mean their opinion has any validity.
It could be my “opinion” that Kwame Brown is the greatest center of all time, but that doesn’t make it right. I also don’t have the right to say that without any real basis and not be ridiculed.
When someone puts players who don’t even have a legitimate argument as GOAT, I will point it out. Instead of being a total whiny stalker about me, you could try defending your point once in your life time. (I know you can’t do that because you use your eyes for everything.)
The non subjectivity of some fans is ridiculous.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
Your opinions? When have you ever given an opinion? Your opinions are always stated as fact, that's my point.
“I know you can’t do that because you use your eyes for everything.”
I don’t even know what that means…….Is that a put down?
“Only Jordan is really in the argument for greatest of all time
Kareem, Wilt, and Magic are in tier 2”
Opinion that is phrased as a fact.
“Nobody else really comes close.”
Opinion that is phrased as a fact.
“Kobe, West, Baylor, Russell, and Bird were all great players, but NONE of them dominated the game at will.”
Opinion that is phrased as a fact. Are we sensing a pattern here? For someone who claims that I don’t read YOUR posts, you seem to be guilty of the same thing.
“When someone puts players who don’t even have a legitimate argument as GOAT, I will point it out.”
According to you, there aren’t any other players who have a legitimate argument, so which is it?
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Hahaha
You do realize that all opinions are stated as fact in the manner that you are speaking.
“True. It is hard to be one of the greatest of all time and also fairly underrated……. "
Opinion stated as fact.
PtR won’t like you omitting Duncan from your GOAT argument
Opinion states as fact
Kareem vs. Shaq in their primes would be Epic!!!
Opinion stated as fact
So your argument is pretty null here. Opinions are stated as fact, but it is obvious when they are opinions because they cannot be proven as a fact.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
That has got to be the lamest response in history...........really.
Every one of your comments are “I am right and there is no argument”.
Every one of my comments were simply comments.
Weak, weak.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Explain the difference between an opinion and comment then
Because why can’t I just say that all my so called opinions were comments.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
Are you serious........you're going with the semantics argument? I know you are better than that. I have seen better than that.
You know the difference. If I say I have to go to the bathroom it could be considered an opinion stated as fact. If I say that Wayne Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time that is definitely an opinion stated as fact.
When your comments are designed to give the impression that you are right and that any argument other than yours is simply ludicrous, then you are stating your opinion of fact. Please don’t make me copy and paste a million examples.
Again, can’t you just say “I think” once in a while instead of things like “The non subjectivity of some fans is ridiculous.”
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
The "I think" should be implied when an obvious opinion is being stated
All the examples you used are simply things I think, that is blatantly obvious.
So yes, I am going with semantic arguments here. And in case you haven’t noticed, most fans aren’t very subjective, hence that statement.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
If you believe that your opinions are not fact......
then why do you trash anyone that disagrees with you. An opinion that has no alternative is a fact. If you act as though your opinion can’t possibly be refuted then you are, in effect, stating a fact (or so you imply).
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Because my opinions come with support
I only trash opinions that are dumb and don’t come with support. Not all opinions are treated equal. Also, not all support is treated equal.
Example 1: Bynum is the best center ever. This is an opinion, but a stupid one with no basis in reality.
Example 2: Horry is the best player of our time because he has 8 rings. * This is an opinion with support, but the support is pretty stupid.
Example 3: *Kareem Abdul-Jabbar played 20 seasons. He scored the most points in NBA history (which in most sports puts you in the argument). He was third all time in blocks and rebounds. He won 6 titles (sound familiar), he was a 6 time MVP. He played in 19 all-star games. He played a position where you are dependent on others to get the ball and can’t create your own shots at will or hog the ball. He was rarely, if ever injured. He didn’t quit and then return when he failed elsewhere. He had an unstoppable signature shot that no-one since has been able to duplicate.
This is an opinion that has good support and makes logical sense. I believe that what Jordan did overrides this, but I’m not going to trash it because it is logical.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
Well I appreciate that, but when you say things like..........
"Only Jordan is really in the argument for greatest of all time……..Nobody else really comes close."
You don’t exactly allow for dissenting opinion, do you?
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
I fixed it down below
That was a bit much for a subjective game like basketball. Only guys with absolutely no debate like Bolt or Phelps deserve that kind of statement. Jordan at least has some theoretical arguments against him.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
Well Bolt and Phelps are individual athletes whose results/times are the "only" thing.
Team sports athletes will always come with an argument.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Hence why I agreed that I may have overstated the Jordan issue
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
Here's the thing
I am willing to adapt my views on things (this is shocking I know) if I am given good evidence.
So, if someone makes a legitimate argument as to why someone else is the GOAT, then I am willing to admit I was wrong and change me decision on the GOAT. No one has ever done this, so my decision remains unchanged.
I know the concept of changing your viewpoint based on reality is a weird one, but I’ve found that it works for me.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
Again, you don't allow for arguments so what is your point.
You can’t say this is right and there is no argument and then say you will accept a good argument.
“I know the concept of changing your viewpoint based on reality is a weird one, but I’ve found that it works for me.”
Well at least you are consistent with the cheap shots.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
OK here goes.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar played 20 seasons. He scored the most points in NBA history (which in most sports puts you in the argument). He was third all time in blocks and rebounds. He won 6 titles (sound familiar), he was a 6 time MVP. He played in 19 all-star games. He played a position where you are dependent on others to get the ball and can’t create your own shots at will or hog the ball. He was rarely, if ever injured. He didn’t quit and then return when he failed elsewhere. He had an unstoppable signature shot that no-one since has been able to duplicate.
And he found time to learn martial arts and make a few movies at the same time.
I suppose none of that counts because of pace, or the rules, or his size, or some other BS.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
If anyone is still reading this
1: Magic (obvious)
2: Kobe (obvious)
3: Coop (defensive reasons, he wouldn’t need to score)
4: Worthy
5: Shaq (hard pick over Kareem)
Bench:
Jerry West
Lamar Odom
Kareem
Non Laker team:
1: Pete Marovich (I never cared for Stockton)
2: Jordan (obvious)
3: Julius Erving (imagine him at the 3)
4: Tim Duncan (people say he’s the best PF of all time)
5: Bill Russel (I’m a die hard Laker fan, so that one was tough)
Bench:
John Stockton
LeBron James
Wilt Chamberlain
I’d say the Non-Laker team wins here. It’s pretty much inevitable that the Non Laker team would win. There’s only so little to choose from while the non Laker team you could pick anyone. Russel and Chamberlain would help each other out with Shaq, LeBron James could wipe out the “mis-match” argument that Odom brings, and then there’s that guy named Jordan.
hmmmm.
Maravich, interesting. Didn’t even consider him.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Kareem
Remember Kareem played against Wilt ( got the better of him in most matchups), Walton in his prime, pre-injuries,Wes Unseld, tough, physical player, Nate Thurmond, same,Bob Lanier, same, Jack Sikma, Artis Gilmore,Dave Cowens,Parrish, Moses,Hakeem,Sampson,Ewing,Laimbeer,Mchale, and some I cannot remember. He won a vast majority of those match-ups, even in his 30’s. In his 20’s it was domination. Much more competition than Shaq faced. The sky hook would be his answer to Shaq and would have him out of position and in foul trouble often. Shaq would try to bully Kareem, but Kareem has seen that before and would use his much superior athletic ability to hamper Shaq. No double teams would be needed against Shaq, as we grew accustomed to seeing, leaving open shots for others. The same could not be said about Kareem. Shaq’s lack of defensive mobility would require DT’s still on Kareem. Over course of game, that spells victory majority of time.
Plus Kareem was a 80% free throw shooter
I see in matchups Kareem around 25-28 PPG, Shaq 20 -22, rebounds fairly even Shaq slight edge, blocks, advantage Kareem, as well as assists
Fact checker.org
Kareem was awesome, as my above post attests, but this is going a bit far.
Kareem played from 1970-1989, now let’s check each of these.
Wilt- 59-73- By 1970 Wilt was a shadow of his former self, averaging under 20 points and 20 boards over those last 3 years. (His career average for boards was over 22, so being under 20 was bad for him.) Owning an old man is eh…
Walton- Walton was pre injury. He came into the league in 74-75 and played 35 games. 51 his 2nd year, 65 his third year, and 58 his 4th year, 14 in his 5th year. The year he managed to play 65 games, he won the title. The year he played 58, his team was leading the NBA until his injury, which effectively killed him as a player.
Unself, Thurmond, Lanier, Sikma, Gilmore, Cowens and co. These guys were all good players, but not legends. Anyone in our current discussion rightly should crush all of them.
The new crop of players actually did outplay Kareem at times, but by the same logic that allowed Kareem to outplay Wilt. Kareem was getting old and these guys came into the NBA already awesome (thanks to players actually going to college back then.)
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
If you're such a stat guy.........and you are......
Isn’t Wilt really the GOAT? 30.1 and 22.9 averages for his career. He even averaged 8.6 assists one year!! 100 points in a game! Statistically he is miles ahead of anyone else. So if stats are the thing with you then why is MJ the automatic greatest of all time?
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
You made the assumption that I am an all stat guy
I mentioned before that I don’t only use stats, but this didn’t fit into your reality so it was ignored. In fact, I even mentioned that most of my favorite statistical measures have Kobe at 6-8 in the league, whereas I have him at 4.
I have also stated many times what Jordan did that transcended stats. He simply won when he wasn’t supposed to and could not be stopped by anyone. Wilt also played in a different era that had higher scoring, different rules, and so on.
I understand that pace adjusting is an unknown to you, but if Lebron (2 season ago) played at the same pace that Oscar did in his first Triple Double season, Lebron would have averaged 40/11/10. So yes, Oscar had better stats than Lebron, but when you factor in some logic, Lebron looks better.
As for Michael vs Wilt. Aside from the different areas skewing the statistics. (LOL at anyone averaging 20rpg anymore.) Michael simply didn’t lose. Wilt for some reason did. Michael won everything that mattered over and over… to the point that he became bored with basketball. Wilt only managed to win 2 titles despite being the best player in his era.
Being great takes a combination of your own skill, being able to win, and simply having “it.” Yes, “it” is a word that cannot be backed up by stats. A player with “it” can do things like claim that Clyde is a better 3 point shooter than you, then drill 6 threes again him in a half the following game. Wilt didn’t have “it” and nobody else has had “it” like Jordan, with maybe the lone exception of Magic.
Why I bother to explain this to you is beyond me because you will choose one line from this you don’t like, remember it, and run with it.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
“you will choose one line from this you don’t like, remember it, and run with it.”
OK, I choose this one
“but if Lebron (2 season ago) played at the same pace that Oscar did in his first Triple Double season, Lebron would have averaged 40/11/10”
And if Lebron played in the 80’s or 90’s against Charles Oakley, Charles Barkley, or Karl Malone he would have spent most of his time in the hospital.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
BTW........
I love how you have added a cute little comment into each of your posts like;
“Why I bother to explain this to you is beyond me because you will choose one line from this you don’t like, remember it, and run with it.”
or
“but this didn’t fit into your reality so it was ignored.”
or
’I know you can’t do that because you use your eyes for everything."
and
“I understand that pace adjusting is an unknown to you,”
I know I am going out on a limb here, but do you think there is a chance that you know your arguments are weak and have to resort to insults? Just curious?
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Negative
I have to resort to these “insults” because they are in fact true. In case you haven’t noticed, you never try to back up any of your “opinions” about the NBA game. When you do try and back things up, you make silly comparisons like Wilt’s 30/20 vs Jordan’s career stats, which just show a lack of understanding for the game.
You must realize that I am only here because I am bored, and normal discussion with you is pretty boring because of the lack of intelligence involved. Thus, insults, which add fun to it all. Especially when they are true and falling on blind eyes.
http://www.zenspider.com/RWD/Thoughts/Inept.html
That is a good read, but I will give you one line from it.
“Similarly, subjects who scored at the 10th percentile on the grammar test ranked themselves at the 67th percentile in the ability to “identify grammatically correct standard English,” and estimated their test scores to be at the 61st percentile."
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
This entire paragraph..........
“I have to resort to these "insults" because they are in fact true. In case you haven’t noticed, you never try to back up any of your "opinions" about the NBA game. When you do try and back things up, you make silly comparisons like Wilt’s 30/20 vs Jordan’s career stats, which just show a lack of understanding for the game.”
…is exactly what I am talking about. Thanks for typing it all out though, I was getting a little tired.
“I have to resort to these "insults" because they are in fact true.”
I can’t believe you aren’t laughing at yourself right now.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
This post is quite funny...............
coming from the guy who states his opinion facts and then insults (admittedly) anyone who disagrees.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Opinions of Zaig
I appreciate your intelligent responses, though I respectfully disagree with some comments.
First, The comment that those other centers were good but not legends is a little ahhhh silly. At least 10 mentioned are in the Hall. If that is not legendary nothing is.
Wilt, while at the end of his career was still a dominant big man in the Shaq mold, which was the comparison at hand. Kareem while young, handled him quite well.
I don’t know if you ever saw Walton, but most highly respected basketball experts will tell you that for the time period he was heathly he was as dominant as anyone. I saw him and I agree.My opinion.
You are right, at times the younger centers of the 80’s outplayed a 30+ Kareem, but check the tapes and box scores.( I’ve got hundreds of games from the 80’&90’s on tape if you want to borrow some) He more than held his own and statistically out played them more often than not. Now statistics do not end an argument but do lend credence to one.
Now as far as greatest of all time, to say only Jordan dominated the game is well, wrong. I never saw Wilt in his prime or players from the 60’s but using your statistical reliances they most assuredly dominated. Kareem was the single most dominant player for the longest duration of time both in college and pros. You may have grown up watching 90’s basketball, but to say Erving, Bird, Magic, M. Malone, so many others,did not dominate is just wrong. Only a very jaded and biased person would say Shaq and Kobe have not dominated the game as well as Lebron. If fact you could argue the decade of Jordan’s dominance was the weakest in NBA history and Jordan had shallow competition compared to other era’s. The only other dominant players of his era was Hakeem and maybe Barkley or K Malone.The teams his team beat are woefully insignificant compared to the teams say Magic had to beat in the 80’s.To say he won when he wasn’t supposed to doesn’t make sense considering his Bulls were favored in every Finals they played in.
Needless to say,Jordan was great and resides at the top of a mountain w/ very few other addresses, but he is not the only resident there. And the views from some of the other addresses may be better. I personally like the view from Magic and Kareems porch. Kobe is building a very, very nice place himself. We’ll talk about it in a few years.
Oh boy............you're in for a tongue lashing from Zaig in ......3.......2........1
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
No he's not
He provides valid logic for all of his arguments. I disagree with some of it, but it’s his opinion backed by reasoning. To be honest, this is probably the best post I’ve seen anyone on this site write.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
I appreciate your subtle shot at me, but you don't agree with any of his comment, and you know it. If you did, you wouldn't have said.....
“Only Jordan is really in the argument for greatest of all time……..Nobody else really comes close.”
Or are you admitting that you were wrong? So which is it, is there no argument, or did he make a good one????
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
I did overstate that
Let me rephrase it.
Jordan is the GOAT, nobody else really comes close. There are arguments for other players, but none of these have come close enough for me to strongly consider removing this title from Jordan.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
the word "me".....
makes this a reasonable comment. With it comes opinion, without it implies fact.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Haha let me fix again then.
Jordan is the GOAT, nobody else really comes close. There are arguments for other players, but none of these have come close enough to strongly consider removing this title from Jordan.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
Ah, I see the real Zaig is back.......don't go away again....
You’re too fun to play with.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Word
First, The comment that those other centers were good but not legends is a little ahhhh silly. At least 10 mentioned are in the Hall. If that is not legendary nothing is.
We just have stricter definitions of legend I think. Being a multi time All-Star gets you into the hall, but for me it takes a lot more to be a “legend.” Legend is a totally subjective term though and we just have different views on it.
I don’t know if you ever saw Walton, but most highly respected basketball experts will tell you that for the time period he was heathly he was as dominant as anyone.
I agree, but I also don’t believe Kareem dominated him. Walton was really only healthy and in his prime for 1.5 years. One year he won a title and the next year he was on route to a 65+ win season before going down with injury. I think it’s safe to say that nobody dominated Walton when he was healthy and in his prime, but because of injuries he will never go down as an all time great.
Now as far as greatest of all time, to say only Jordan dominated the game is well, wrong.
I might have been unclear on that. I have the tier 2 guys as dominating the game at will also. Lots of players have been great, but only Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, and Magic truly dominated in my eyes. (Similar to legendary, we might have different definitions of true domination.) Shaq would be in 5th place for true domination in the early part of this decade I think if that matters at all.
Malone, Kobe, Barkley, and so on have dominated many games, but not “the game” if that makes sense to you.
I like you, although in your Lakers vs World team, I think the world team would win with relative ease. Other than Magic and Shaq off the bench, the Lakers are beat/tied at every other position. (Blame the Laker forwards, they just never got the godlike forwards like they did with Guards and Centers. Don’t get me wrong, Worthy was awesome, but he was just All-Star awesome, not epic awesome.)
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
See, that is all I ask.......
Why can’t the rest of your posts be like this one.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Because...
Nobody but Fins has posted anything worth giving this good of a response.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
zing
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
I clone my opponents
So as dumb as you think I am, you actually are.
OR
As smart as you think I am, you actually are.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
You're not as dumb as I look............wait,
scratch that.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
We will call today a draw..........but I am not going anywhere.
Someone has to guard the hen house.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
college or pro?
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Definitions
I agree that our definitions are likely not quite aligned. Thats part of the fun, eh, of unanswerable questions. It is really impossible to be definitive when talking all-time this or that in sports due to so many factors. The only true realities are when the stars align and legendary matchups occur (i.e. Magic’s Lakers Vs. Larry’s Celts—Magic was better 5-3 and overall was a better player over the course of their parallel careers). Opinions are by nature biased no matter how we may try to be subjective. If you talk to people from the East Coast who grew up in the 60’s about Russel or his teams, they would mop the floor against anyone, LOL.Those who’s basketball impressions began with Micheals ascension understandably feel he is unassailable.I happen to be a Laker fan since the mid 70’s, so my bias is obvious, while trying to be reasonable. Having watched realistically 60-70% of Laker games in that time, my views reflect that 1st hand knowledge.
So to your points, I actually do not feel Barkley or Malone dominated as you describe, though I disagree mightly about Kobe. He has been 1 or 1A for the last 5 years in a very competitive league and dominates almost exactly like Mike did. There career parallels are interesting because Kobe mirroring of Mike really began after winning 3 rings. You could say Kobe at 26 and the team makeup for him was the same as Mike at 22. It took Mike several years to get the pieces to win rings, while dominating individually. Same with Kobe. What Kobe does now over the next few years will determine whether he surpasses Mike, though I think the league is tougher now than during Mike’s era and I think that might be unrealistic. Time will tell.
As far as my teams, you gotta admit those games would be awesome to see. Neither team would handle the other w/ ease. I happen to think though that if all mentioned played in their prime, the laker team wins a higher % of the games.
Of course I’m biased.
A creative look, and I think it could work
PG Magic vs. Gary Payton
SG West Jordan
SF Bryant Larry Bird
PF Kareem Tim Duncan
C Shaq Wilt
Bench:
Elgin Bill Russel
Worthy Shawn Kemp
Pau Lebron
Cooper Reggie Miller
I do not see why Shaq and Kareem could not work together. They can both pass and move laterally. Kareem had decent range. And I’d have Pau on the bench if it wasn’t working. Kobe is not a true SF but he can play it and I’d have Worthy and Elgin to slide in for flexibility. I threw Coop in for the defensive energy.
Can you tell I was also a Sonic Fan (RIP, Fuck Howard Schultz) Gary in his prime is underrated. He was the total package. And Shawn Kemp in his prime circa ’96 was amazing. Dude could still fly and his outside shot was developed by then. His rebounding was always strong and there was not a PF he could not defend 1-1. Malone definitely has him on body of work, but I do not think Malone ever had a season where he was as dominant as Kemp was in ’96. Same for Stockton vs Payton (see ’96 Western conference finals).
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
Kemp had 1 big problem
His prime lasted like 1.5 years. He took a while to develop his complete game to go with his off the charts athleticism, but by the time he did this he only had a little time left on his athleticism.
But in that 1.5 year period Kemp was as much fun to watch as anyone in the game. (Too bad he was kind of a douche IRL…)
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
In '95-'96 Kemp's, best year, was 25.
His jump shot and D improved leaps and bounds each year and it wasn’t until after this year that his athleticism started to decline. There is no doubt that his peak was too short, but it was not because it took too long for his skills to develop.
The reason his athleticism faded so quickly and prematurely is simple: he could not hang with Payton, nor could anyone else (see Vin Baker).
The Glove and The Reign Man liked to party, hard and while Gary managed to keep his head and body, Kemp lost his. He was out of control, doing, without prejudice, everything that was in front of him- from drugs to women. Kemp’s body could not take it and he ballooned and lost his ability. That was tragic. Payton and Kemp was supposed to be the Stockton Malone version 2.0.
It does show what a true freak Gary is. The dude partied all night, never missed a game and played almost every minute and hardly ever broke a sweat!
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
Interesting
I’d actually never heard that stuff about Payton. I knew Kemp loved his coke and loved his ladies. (He has something like 6 reported kids across the country from various mothers and who knows how many more unreported?)
I guess it’s not too shocking about Payton. We all knew that guy in college who was drunk 6 nights a week and still threw down a 3.8 GPA, while taking a full load of classes.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
Payton was a freak!
He destroyed Vin Baker in less than a year!
I don’t know if Payton ever got into coke, but I am kind of guessing he had his moments. I do know (unofficially of course) they loved to drink and smoke the herb. Look atold clips of Kemp and he looks like he just got out of a pool because he is sweating out the alcohol so hard, while Payton hardly ever broke a sweat.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
Magic vs Payton at PG
hmmm, are you saying Gary Payton is at level with Magic? Don’t think so.. Maybe on the D, yeah but that’s it. Mr. Payton can’t hold a candle to Magic. Hell, even Kidd is better than Payton.
Oh yeah, also feel for you about your sonics team. You somebody should have hacked Schultz’s e-mail account earlier. Will not move the team my ass…. Seattle was definitely screwed there.
i dont know whether id say kidd was better than payton, payton gets to be on the list of nba greats that would have one a title in their prime if MJ wasnt dominating everyone.
those sonics in the 90’s were a force to be reckon with. where as kidd, never really had the ability to strike fear into his opponents due to his lack of an outside shot.
In Kobe we trust!
Maybe
but Jason makes his teammates better, and makes the team win more. And he led the Nets (they were a force to reckon with in 2002 & 2003) to 2 straight championship finals. Oh yeah, he also had a triple double in the 1st finals try.
Gail Goodrich has said Gary is "probably as complete a guard as there ever was."
In his prime he was the best on the ball defender in basketball. Kidd was a better distributor, but I do not think he beats Gary in distribution by the margin Gary beats Kidd in D. Kidd was a better rebounder but Gary was solid and Payton was a much better scorer. Payton is the only PG ever to win defensive player of the year and made the all NBA defensive first team nine times, a mark that is matched only by Jordan.
Payton made his teammates better and he was always on winning teams. Kidd led the Nets through a lame ass Eastern Conference and Payton led the Sonics in a tough Western Conference. He would have led the Sonics to the finals twice, had it not been for one of the most crookedly fixed officiating games of all time, game 7 of ’93 conf. finals against Sir Charles and the Suns.
Now as far as being on a level with Magic, well no I am not saying that. Magic is without a doubt the greatest PG of all-time! But give me The Glove after that.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
Lakers:
Magic (any argument?… thought so)
Kobe (most versatile offensive player ever, great defender)
Baylor (changed the game forever)
Gasol (helped us win title, great all around game)
Shaq (best post up offensively, another reason I chose Kobe)
I chose Shaq over Kareem because of the size and physical size
Bench:
West(clutch, logo, great shot)
Worthy(big game James)
Kareem(sky hook, tall, unstoppable offensive game)
NBA:
Oscar (great stats Mr. Triple-Double)
Jordan(GOAT, need I say more)
Bird (great shooter, not afraid to get dirty)
Duncan(greatest pf all time)
Hakeem(best combo of offense and d at center)
Chose Hakeem because I don’t know how Wilt would play against Shaq
Bench:
Wilt(uhhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah Wilt)
Karl(the mailman: name speaks for itself)
Stockton(works well Karl, 1 all time on steals and assists
Sooooooo:
pg is close but I’ll go with Magic
sg accomplishments aside pretty even
sf Bird
pf close accomplishments aside but Duncan
center I’ll say Shaq but close
bench I’ll take Lakers
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