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Why the Lakers Don't Need Trevor Ariza

Welcome to Los Angeles, Ron Ron. With this guy leading on the court, in practice, and in the locker room, I'm really not worried about you being a problem.

More photos » by Mark J. Terrill - AP

Welcome to Los Angeles, Ron Ron. With this guy leading on the court, in practice, and in the locker room, I'm really not worried about you being a problem.

So far, you've read my headline, and you're thinking, "Did he really just say that?" Yes, I did. Somebody had to say it. It had to be said. And while I'm at it, I'll say more or less the converse, as well:  Signing Ron Artest was a great move for the Lakers, and he is definitely an upgrade over Trevor Ariza.

I'm not just talking about talent. With regards to talent, Ron Artest is better than Trevor Ariza. Surely, even those who oppose this "trade" (for such it essentially was) would have no trouble admitting that. Instead, the questions that arise about Artest are those of fit, of chemistry, and of the effect he will have on the Lakers. In regards to those factors, those who criticize this move see Ron Ron as a bad fit in the offense, a destroyer of team chemistry, a drama queen, and a player who, despite his many talents, will have a stronger negative impact on the Lakers than positive.

They are valid questions, and those who oppose this move raise valid points, so while this is still fresh — and, it must be pointed out, the effects of this trade are still pure speculation — let's take a stab at answering some of those questions.

Star-divide

Let's review a bit, shall we? Our own C.A. Clark has done a great job reviewing the key talking points on both sides of the issue, and I strongly recommend you check that out. Meanwhile, Timbo has brought us a sampling of opinions from the Houston press, and then an in-depth biography or Ron Artest. As far as "the rest of them" go, the good news here is that the reaction is fairly balanced – for every talking head saying, "That was dumb," there's one saying, "Pencil in the Lakers as repeat champions," and vice versa. Meanwhile, the critics, for their part, raise very valid concerns. That's why I'd like to take a moment to look at where they're coming from, and to evaluate whether those concerns will be major issues or minor afterthoughts in the three years to come. Here's a sampling:

Bill Plaschke, Los Angeles Times: "Less than three weeks after the parade, the NBA champion Lakers have already met the biggest threat to their throne. Themselves. What are they thinking? What are they doing? They just won a title that would not have been possible without the strong defense and stunning shooting of a 24-year-old kid with a limitless ceiling. Yet they send the kid packing for an aging nut whose greatest hits have occurred on the heads of fans. They just won a title with a locker room bathed in the soothing light of unselfishness, teamwork and a quiet temerity. Yet they cut the power and added the darkest of moods, a guy who has made a career out of hoarding the ball, the attention, and the anger. Tell me again, why did they get rid of Trevor Ariza for Ron Artest?"

Empty The Bench: "If you’re Ariza, you feel disrespected. It’s hard not to take this personally when you just played a critical role in helping anybody win a NBA championship for anybody, let alone a storied franchise like the Lakers. This is the team synonymous with your city, the place where you grew up, where you played college ball. This is the team you dreamed of playing for as a pro ... and the team that, in the end, declined offering you the security of the long-term contract that you’ve damned well earned. Any other competitive team would be thrilled to have you, and you’d likely be the crucial missing piece for any one of them. You are that good. (Maybe.) And when you win that second ring with somebody else, you’ll be in store for an even bigger payday than this one. And then the Lakers will be sorry ..."

Hardwood Paroxysm: "That said…WHAT ON EARTH IS GOING ON?!  This would seem to be an arrangement from which neither party really gains.  Artest seemed to have a pretty good thing going in Houston, and though Yao’s likely out for the season, Ron would have plenty of room to flex his alpha dog complex.  The man needs the ball on the offensive end, which leads some rather random results.  It’s what happens when talented players live and die by the contested, fadeaway jumper.  With the Rockets, there is no question that Artest was the man on the offensive end.  There’s no Yao or T-Mac in sight, meaning most of the playmaking responsibilities would fall on the shoulders of Artest and one Aaron Brooks, who still has quite a bit to learn in the way of being an NBA point guard. …

Beyond that, Artest only makes sense offensively in situations where his skills can be utilized without damaging the team concept.  Los Angeles, home of the triangle offense, is not that place.  Artest’s tendency to stop the ball, throw possessions into the wind, and take what can only be described as "Ron Artest Shots" can’t fly well with Phil, with Kobe, with Pau, with Tex Winter, or with just about anyone who has come to know and love (or at least respect) the most dominant offensive unit in the game.  The Lakers are just too damn good offensively because of the triangle, not in spite of it as some Jordan-esque logic might suggest.  They were able to dissect a fantastic defensive team in the Finals because the talent was there and the system was there.  Artest brings plenty of one, but substitutes the other for generally poor basketball IQ and the possibility of going bonkers at any particular time.  Sweet."

Meanwhile, the reaction here at SS&R has been mixed, as well. Here are some comments from those who are currently busy either drowning their sorrows or banging their heads against walls:

"How the hell could we lose Ariza??? I woke up feeling sooo peaceful only to hear of this unrivaled TRAGEDY!! Ariza fits perfectly well into the triangle offense. What the hell is going on in this freaking world? Is it being run by freaking Celtics? That has to be it. This is going to take some time for me to get over."

"Ariza was a role-player who knew his place and was a BETTER perimeter defender than Ron. Ron is a chuck-chuck-chucker and it’s gonna make for an interesting night when Ron puts up 20 shots and Kobe puts up 25… Or a boring night if you are one of the front-line players. The Lakers’ glaring weakness was at the PG position and this does NOTHING to correct that."

Let's deal with these concerns one by one, shall we? The idea here isn't to blame anyone for reacting negatively to this move – there are valid concerns on both sides of this issue. Instead, the hope is that by the time we're done here, you'll have a better sense of what to expect in response to some of the key questions pertaining to Artest's effect on the Lakers, and thus, a better idea of how to feel about the 2009-10 Lakers, sans Trevor Ariza.


Don't Blame Mitch – Blame Ariza

A post on Bleacher Report suggests that Ariza "certainly proved that he's worth every dollar of the $7-8 million per year he was seeking," and then went on to make this ridiculous — yet fairly common — assertion:  "It's unfortunate that the Lakers didn't see it that way, because their offer of $5.6 million a year for three years was bested by only a reported $200,000 per year by the Houston Rockets."

Considering the offer Ariza has reportedly accepted from the Rockets, this reaction has been a fairly common one, blaming the Lakers for not paying him what he was worth when he was willing to sign with the Rockets for — wait for it — what the Lakers offered him. Did you get that? The Lakers offered him the same deal he has reportedly accepted from the Rockets, but Ariza didn't take it.

Why is this? His agent is much to blame, but ultimately, the buck stops at Ariza's doorstep. His agent represents him; if he is misrepresented, then it is his responsibility to step up and say, "Dude, you're ruining my career and I want no part of you." Adrian Wojnarowski summed it up well:

This was a failed power play, an embarrassment of the highest order. Looking back, Ariza will rue the day. He’s a good player, but he’ll never be a star elsewhere. He’ll just be another player on another team.

"He was way too emotional about this," said a league executive who had talked to [Ariza's agent David] Lee in recent days.

If anything, the Lakers should be applauded for making the right offer to Ariza — an offer that he eventually proved, through his acceptance, was a good one. Instead of accepting what was a great offer and getting his client good money on a great team, Lee tried to take the Lakers for more than his client was worth in this market — much like he successfully did with Andrew Bynum — and the Lakers were fed up with it. A lesson to David Lee:  The number one rule of negotiating, from international politics to sports contracts to open air markets in West Africa, is, Don't offend the other party. And if you were looking for a good number two rule, it would probably be, Don't let yourself be seen as unreasonable. David Lee did both of these things, and Trevor Ariza got screwed.

The Lakers aren't to blame for not offering Ariza more money; they clearly offered him what he was worth. David Lee, and ultimately Trevor Ariza, are to blame for trying to pull a power play on the Lakers, and for acting like Ariza was indispensable. As they found out, he is not.

Consider this:  Ariza went from playing on a championship contending team that had recently been given odds of repeating, in arguably the most desirable city that hosts an NBA franchise, for a fan base that worships its key role players as though they were stars... to playing on a lottery-bound team in hot-as-hell Houston. And for what? Not more money, that's for sure. Woj wasn't kidding when he said Ariza would rue the day. I think he's rueing it already.

Don't get me wrong. As a Lakers fan, Trevor Ariza quickly became one of my favorite basketball players. He played a huge role in the Lakers 2009 NBA Championship, and for that I am extremely grateful to him. But this isn't about Ariza, it's about the Lakers; it isn't about the past, it's about the future. And as far as the future goes, Ariza handled his poorly, while the Lakers handled theirs expertly. I feel for Ariza, but I don't regret the decision the Lakers made even a little bit.


Artest is a Defensive Upgrade

Trevor Ariza is a very good perimeter defender, with the potential to become even better. Ron Artest is a former Defensive Player Of the Year, and one of the best defenders in the league. So let's be clear about one thing:  As good a defender as Ariza is, Artest is better.

No, this is not about the fact that Artest once one the DPOY award. This is about size, strength, toughness, and most of all, versatility. In the wake of this move, some have reacted to the idea that Ron Ron is a better defender, suggesting that Artest's best days are behind him while Ariza is a top-notch perimeter defender.

The keys here are man defense and versatility. First, don't expect Artest to get the kind of steals Ariza gets. He's not playing the passing lanes and gambling for the steals the way Ariza does. At the same time, gambling is just that – a risk that, if not successful, can put the rest of the team in a tight spot. Artest is much more about simply locking down his defender, making him work hard, and forcing him into tough shots. In that respect, he's one of the best defenders in the NBA, and still ahead of Ariza.

Don't believe me? Try this little exercise: Remember how hard Kobe Bryant had to work against Ron Artest in the 2009 playoffs, when Artest was guarding him. Artest did not shut him down, but he made him work extremely hard for his points. Now imagine Ariza defending Kobe. Do you see Kobe having such a tough go of it against Ariza? Sure, Ariza might come up with a steal or two, but in my mind, Kobe would score much more easily against Ariza than Artest.

Even more importantly is the fact that Artest has the versatility to defend multiple positions. Ariza can defend quick, athletic wing players, even possessing the quickness and length to frustrate speedy point guards, but he doesn't have the size or strength to match up well with bigger, stronger small forwards. Let's try that exercise again, only this time, imagine how Ariza and Artest match up with LeBron James. No contest, right? Again, Ariza might come up with a steal or two, but LeBron is too big, too strong, and every bit as quick as Ariza. Artest, on the other hand, is one of the few players with the build to be able to stay with LeBron on the perimeter, and yet not be overpowered by his size and strength.

Now, imagine Artest getting stuck guarding the opposing team's center, because of rotations and defensive switches. Are you worried? It's not a matchup I'd have confidence in over a long period of time, but again, Artest's size, strength, and defensive skill would give me confidence that as a help defender, when necessary, he could hold his own against anyone from the quick point guards to the big centers. That's what you get with Artest, and maybe the only other guy in the league with the body and skill set capable of doing that is LeBron James. As good as Ariza is defensively, he is not better than Artest, and he does not have the defensive versatility that Artest does.


Kobe's Rodman/Pippen

Perhaps most important about this acquisition is what Ron Artest does for Kobe Bryant. Defensively, he can cover everyone that Kobe can — and when it comes to the bigger guys (read: LeBron James), he can do it better. While Ariza was a solid perimeter defender, those who suggest he was the Lakers' best perimeter defender are wrong. That title still belonged to Bryant, when the Lakers played the likes of Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Brandon Roy, Paul Pierce, etc., that became obvious. With Artest on board, Bryant no longer needs to take those assignments. Ron Artest will take them, and Kobe Bryant will be able to frustrate lesser players and put more energy into offense.

Ask yourself also this:  Over the last several teams, who has been the Lakers "enforcer"? The answer is Kobe Bryant. Doesn't make much sense, does it? The concept of the enforcer is a lesser player with the strength, toughness, and attitude necessary to protect his superstar. Instead, Kobe Bryant was playing the role of best player in the NBA, who had to protect his teammates and himself.

These are the things that Scottie Pippen and guys like Dennis Rodman and Charles Oakley did for Michael Jordan. Jordan was an excellent defender, but the big difference between Jordan and Kobe is that Jordan didn't have to defend the other team's best player. That job fell to Pippen, who let Jordan do his work against lesser players. Jordan also didn't have to protect himself. Guys like Rodman and Oakley made sure that guys got the message that their superstar wasn't to be messed with.

This is what Ron Artest can do for Kobe Bryant. Kobe can guard the other team's best player, but he no longer needs to. He can save himself more for offense, both as a scorer and a creator, and for the latter years of his career. And when someone needs to stand up and let the other team know the Lakers won't be pushed around, it won't always have ot be Kobe. Ron Ron will no doubt gladly step up in that regard from time to time. (Though he may have to fight Fisher for that honor.)


The "Crazy Pills" Factor

Ron Artest did earn that nickname by being a cool, reserved player. You know his history. You know his quirks. We won't rehash them here. What we will do is talk about how that might come into play while he is with the Lakers.

The most important thing to look at here is recent history. Sure, Ron Artest has made some HUGE mistakes — but he's far from the only one. But instead of going down a list of other NBA players, or professional athletes in general, who have made such mistakes in the past, let's make this a bit more personal.

How about you? Have you ever made any mistakes? Any stupid decisions? Acted the total ass? Because I'll tell you right now, if you haven't made some HUGE mistakes in your life, you're either very, very young, or the very rare exception that proves the rule. In fact, the biggest difference between Ron Artest and you or me, when it comes to big mistakes, isn't that he has made them — it's that he has made them in public.

So let's most past the tired rehashing of his past mistakes, shall we? Let's talk about what we see now. Because what I saw last year, in Houston, was a great teammate and a man trying to show that he has grown up, that he has matured, and that he is not the same guy that unloaded physically on a fan who was dumb enough to throw beer on him years ago in Indiana. Theatrics? Sure, that comes with the territory — but the same can be said for half of the players in the NBA. Emotion? Absolutely, he's a very emotional player. But I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me what is so inherently wrong with those traits.

Despite them, I see a player who has grown up, matured, and knows very well that he has everything to prove in this moment. And don't be foolish enough to think that he's not aware of it. No one can be more aware of the fact that this moment, this opportunity with the Lakers, can be the turning point in his career — the point where he can be like Kobe Bryant, rehabbing his image despite earlier mistakes, or Shaquille O'Neal, stubbornly repeating the same old mistakes, to the point that fewer and fewer people are giving him a pass these days.

I'll grant you that this is pure speculation. I don't know the future any more than you, and I can't predict what Artest's mindset will be, or what he will do. But based on what we can observe, I believe his recent past gives me more reason to expect his best behavior in Los Angeles than it does to expect a return to his more distant past. His willingness to accept a salary that he had previously scoffed at, and his clear priority on winning over money, fame, or the ability to be "the man" only reinforce that idea for me.


Enter Phil Jackson and Kobe Bryant

Ever attached at the hip, these two, aren't they? Once again, to a large extent this comes down to Phil and Kobe.

Consider this:  For quite a long time, Ron Artest has been "the man" on his team. The best player, the leader. And even if not the most talented or most efficient on the court, the most dominant personality. Even in Houston, where he was the clear third option while both McGrady and Yao were healthy, I doubt that the team leaders carried the weight necessary to lead Artest. Tracy McGrady has never struck me as a natural leader, and this year he seemed apathetic at times. And respect? I doubt Artest had any great respect for McGrady, any more than any other player in the game. He's talented, but in the NBA, who isn't? While Artest's suggestions, at times, that he is on the same level as Kobe and LeBron, are quite absurd, the idea that he is on equal footing with McGrady is much more plausible. And Yao? A fantastic teammate and a great leader by example, no doubt, but he is too passive and not a strong enough or dominant enough personality to keep Artest in check.

In Los Angeles, this will not be a problem. There is no question, in either Artest's or Bryant's minds (or anyone else's, for that matter), what the pecking order is on that team. And Kobe Bryant definitely is a strong enough and dominant enough personality to keep Artest in check.

And how about Phil Jackson? He handled Rodman when he was still merely a very good coach. And Ron Artest is no Dennis Rodman. Jackson managed the egos of Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant for years, and even added Karl Malone and Gary Payton to the mix for a year — coming just short of another title. Heck, even Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant presented bigger challenges, in terms of personality and struggle for control, than Artest does. Do you really expect Artest to get out of hand with Jackson at the helm?

And we're not even getting into Derek Fisher, one of the best leaders and most respected players in the NBA, and Lamar Odom, a lifelong friend of Artest's.

Of course, all of this has been said before, but I think most people are approaching it the wrong way. They're thinking about the things that Kobe Bryant and Phil Jackson (and Fisher and Odom) would do if Ron Artest got out of hand, if he needed to be kept in check. I don't believe this will really even get that far.

What this is really about is the fact that for most of Artest's career, there has been a leadership void on his team. Now there is not. Rarely has Artest played for a coach who commanded his respect without demanding it. But now he will play for just such a coach — one whom he respects in the utmost even before he shows up to training camp. Jackson doesn't have to fight for Artest's respect; he doesn't have to earn it. He already has it.

The same is true of Kobe Bryant, Derek Fisher, and Lamar Odom. The friendship and respect are already there. The leadership is already there. In the past, Artest has stepped into the void simply because such a void existed. He has become "the man" because no one else filled that role, either in personality or in ability. In L.A., there are no such voids to step into. Those spots are already taken, and then some.


What L.A. Gains vs. What They Lose

Let's wrap this up by talking about skill sets. To me, the other points are moot. I don't expect Ron Artest to be the problem that he has been in the past. I don't expect him to be the dominant personality in the locker room, in practice, or on the court, and so I don't expect him to have the opportunity to disrupt team chemistry or become a distraction — even if he was so inclined, which I don't think he is.

Trevor Ariza did three or four things very well, and they were things that fit perfectly with the Lakers. The question is, how does Artest stack up in those areas, and what else does he bring to the table that Ariza didn't?

Ariza shot well from the three-point line — but for the 2008-09 season, Artest shot 5% better from the same distance. Of course, Ariza shot .476 from long range in the playoffs, but ESPN's David Thorpe raises a good point about Ariza's hot shooting (via TrueHoop):

"We don't know if Trevor Ariza just made some shots last season, or has actually improved as a shooter. But if he is now a much improved shooter, he has superstar potential."

Remember how well Sasha Vujacic shot the ball in 2007-08? Feel free to look up his stats for 2008-09.

Ariza drove to the hoop and finished well, certainly better than Artest can. But Artest is very effective in the post, as Henry Abbott points out — Ariza is not at all. Comparing the two, I'd suggest that Arest has the ability to get more high quality opportunities close to the hoop than Ariza. And, as Abbott also pointed out, Artest's effectiveness in the post will lead to all sorts of cutting options for his teammates.

Ariza was a very good perimeter defender, but he is not the lockdown man defender Artest is, and has nowhere near the versatility Artest does. Artest is bigger, stronger, more physical, and tougher, and he can guard the opposing team's best player, regardless of who that is. Most importantly, he takes over for Kobe on defense in ways that Ariza never quite could.

Lastly, Ariza's shot selection was actually very good. He was unselfish, he didn't take contested jumpers, and he never fell in love with the long ball. He hit it at a great rate, especially late in the year, but whenever the lane opened up, his first love was still attacking the basket. This is the one strength that I think Ariza enjoys over Artest.

But again, I go back to the fact that for most of his career, Artest has been the man. In Houston, that changed — and while it took him about a month to adjust, he took significantly fewer shots, and was more efficient, after he made that adjustment. That lasted, for the most part, until April, when Yao Ming went down. And guess what? Artest was once again "the man" on that team.

Ron Ron's shot selection will NOT be as good as Ariza's was. He will take more shots than Ariza did, and some of them will be very ill-advised attempts. But I also don't think it will be an issue to the extent that most are expecting, for the same reasons that I have already articulated. That void existed on other teams; the opportunity was there for Artest to step up, be the team leader on the court, take the most shots, and dominate the ball. That opportunity does not exist with the Lakers. Once again, there is no such talent void for him to step into.

Of course, I'm aware that from a certain perspective, Ariza fit into the triangle offense better than Artest might. But frankly, I don't care. Looking at Ariza's strengths, the primary things he brought to this team, I find very little that Artest can't more than compensate for. In my mind, Artest either excels in the same ways as Ariza, or more than accounts for his weaknesses with even bigger strengths, in almost every significant area. And then, when all that is said and done, he brings even more things to the table that Ariza never did. You know what we call that? It's quite simple, and it's something we all knew before we started trying to qualify things and take silly angles: Artest is better than Ariza!


Offense vs. Defense

I want to close with this final thought: Defense wins championships. We all know this. We repeat it ad nauseum. So why is it that whenever we want to criticize the Lakers, whenever we want to suggest that they're not good enough to win a championship, it's always about defense and toughness — but whenever they make an effort to improve in those areas, the discussion always revolves around the triangle offense?

The Lakers already largely addressed the criticisms about their defense and toughness, such that it shouldn't even be that much of a question anymore. This move completes that process. With Artest, the Lakers have the potential not only to have addressed their weaknesses, but to actually become the best and toughest defensive team in the NBA, and perhaps one of the best and toughest in NBA history. And that's what wins championships, right?

So why are we talking about how Artest fits into the triangle and how many offensive possessions he will use or waste?

Do we really think that an offense featuring Kobe Bryant and a slew of very, very talented scorers will have any problem scoring? Are you really worried about the Lakers offense? Do you seriously question a team that features Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol, with Fisher shooting threes and just maybe Andrew Bynum getting a chance to get closer to his January 2008/09 form? As far as I'm concerned, adding Artest and his occasional ill-advised offensive ball-hogging to the mix simply makes the Lakers the best offense in the league by a slightly smaller margin.

So do us all a favor:  If you really, truly believe that winning a championship is about defense and toughness, then shut up about how Artest will fit into the triangle offense and who's possessions he'll be taking.

I think you know my final conclusion. Without a shred of evidence to base this on, and reserving the right to admit I was wrong once we actually see this team on the court, it is my prediction that most of the classic Ron Artest problems simply won't be major issues in Los Angeles. I believe the strength of leadership and character, and the dominance of personality, that already exist in Los Angeles will simply prevent Artest from stepping into the role he has so often occupied on other teams. Should he ever need to be brought back under control, I have no doubt that the relationships, the leadership, and the authority are all present in abundance to do so with few problems.

Meanwhile, I think that the physical skills and abilities, and especially the strength and versatility, that Artest brings to Los Angeles significantly outweigh the specific things that allowed Ariza to fit in so well as a role player with the Lakers. Simply put, the Lakers got a better player, and it will make them better. End of story.

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Lakers-Grizzlies Preview

Nov 2009 by DexterFishmore - 25 comments

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Good post, my sentiments exactly

I figure the best thing this team can do is individually learn to all take better shots. Kobe takes 4 or so bad shots a game, fisher takes 2. Bynum takes 1 or 2. Pau rarely takes any. Lamar might take 2 or 3. If everyone on the team can learn to defer some of these bad shots, Ron might find the # of attempts he’s looking for and although some of them may be bad, that will be okay.

Also keep in mind that this is a defense first mentality move. The offense might be rusty in the beginning, but they have an entire season to get things to click. Until then, look for the Lakers to play the same lackadaisical defense throughout the season when they’re playing non-contenders…but you can bet the Cleveland, Boston, and Orlando games sure are gonna be good.

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

by Justin N. on Jul 5, 2009 12:29 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice write-up Josh. The one thing is in the “Dont blame Mitch -Blame Ariza” section Mitch actually never offered him a contract. In everything I’ve read it has said he was “prepared to offer” or “was willing to match” etc, but he never OFFERED that contract to him.
To my knowledge, Mitch never offered him any contract. He told him to go out in the open market and find offers, then he might match them. Then he went out and his agent started talking to the media, and I think that’s when Mitch decided to just go ahead and get Artest.

by intuitive on Jul 5, 2009 12:32 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This is why I blame the agent

Ariza’s a young guy, you can’t expect him to know what’s best in terms of contract negotiations and talking to the media. He couldn’t tell his agent to shut up, because he has an agent for these exact purposes. David Lee is just a bad, bad agent.

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

by Justin N. on Jul 5, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly. And this was his first big signing so you have to give him some slack for not knowing what to do. His agent shouldn’t have gone out and talked to the media before, during, or even after the signing.

by intuitive on Jul 5, 2009 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

he never had a chance to make the offer

Lee told Mitch straight up from the beginning that Ariza would not take the MLE, and that he wanted a much larger starting contract. Mitch responded immediately, and told Lee essentially to get lost.

Let’s just hope Bynum changes agents before his own contract comes due, else we might be looking at losing Bynum in the future, because I’m sure Lee will believe Drew is worth the max contract, eventually going over $20 million, when we all know that the best Bynum will ever be is a $10-$15 million player.

"The problem actually is that PER is a extra-long, double high wagon load of horse crap." - timbo (7/3/09)

by tandur on Jul 5, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree Josh

Ariza is good but just imagine Artest fulfilling Ariza’s shoes but with more talent so this more is a positive move and I get the feeling Artest wants to win, it’s not about money so Artest will fit in, to make everything work. My only concern would be Artest trying to fit in too much and pass up opportunities to take shots on offense and feel out of place because of the Triangle offense. I feel this will work and once Odom in locked in, Lakers will be a force.

There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.

by BrittneyM on Jul 5, 2009 12:56 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Here's what I say

Have Artest take about the same amount of shots as Ariza, probably a couple more. And honestly I don’t think there will be any problems in the triangle offense. He’s a solid shooter who can move well and is in great shape. On defense he can take some slack off of Kobe. he was basically the best guy the Laker’s could’ve gotten as a free agent.

by KobeisGod on Aug 31, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK

First of all I agree that the Lakers did the right thing signing Artest rather than overpaying Ariza or taking the chance of winding up without either of them.

But your article reminds me of that smokin’ hot college girlfriend (with the awesome physical skills and abilities). She was great if you ignore the fact that she was kinda crazy, high maintenance or you two always fought. And she required a lot of your attention & energy just because you were never sure what you’d find when you came through the front door.

Then there’s the one who was different but just as hot and who you enjoyed being around, exciting but without all the drama.

After all the Kobe/Shaq fighting it is a shame we have to import the all the Artest craziness and drama on to a team of mostly likable guys. I mean with Pau, Andrew, Lamar, Kobe, Fish, Luke, Sacha, Jordan, Shannon, Mbenga, Powell, etc. you may like some more than others but it is hard to call any of them jerks or crazy.

I admire skills and competitive passion but I doubt Artest will ever be as easy to root for as Trevor was. But as a Laker fan I obviously hope it works out for the best.

by lazNirv on Jul 5, 2009 2:03 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Great Analogy

about the the crazy GF. I completely agree about how hard or how easy it is to root for for some players more than others. But, the part about rooting for someone is secondary to the idea of bringing in someone who can help this team win a title. That is why we are fans to hope that we can cheer for a team that wins it all at the end of the year. That is what many Laker fans are thinking about and the most important thing our minds.

Which player, Artest or Ariza improves or gives us the best shot at a title? Artest!

That is ALL we care about. Not who it is easier to root for. But I do see your point about the unpredictability that Artest comes with. But if Ariza’s agent gives the Lakers a choice between loosing Ariza and be left with Luke at the SF position or signing Artest which would you prefer?

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Jul 5, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

To answer your question

Above I said:

I agree that the Lakers did the right thing signing Artest rather than overpaying Ariza or taking the chance of winding up without either of them.

So I’m glad to have Artest and I know he has skills. But it also reminds me of the 2003, 2004 time frame. Shaq was still dominating but showed up for training camp out of shape & took it easy the first part of the season. Plus he & Kobe fought like spoiled brats (I hold them both equally responsible by the way).

Shaq was the most dominating center available and the threepeat was great but it is nice not to have to endure that needless pain & suffering as a fan in 2008 & 2009.

by lazNirv on Jul 5, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I get it..

I am sure that during that 7 year period that the Lakers went without a title due to both of their inability to get along was growing pains and that is a totally different argument but I can see how that applies to Kobe and Artest. BUT! I saw the interview with Artest on Thursday night at the ESPN Zone and he seemed williing and to respectful of Kobe and Artest to cause any problems. As I said before, I cannot remember the last time Artest ever complained or seemed to complain about how many touches he was getting or anything that made him seem like a player in search of the spotlight which is what caused the rift between Shaq and Kobe.

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Jul 5, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Glad to hear the Artest inteview was encouraging. I haven’t been able to bring myself to watch it.

PS. Look out for Boston. The Boston Herald is reporting Rasheed is headed there. I wonder what the Spurs’ plan B is.

by lazNirv on Jul 5, 2009 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

McDyess

Is likely next on their list.

by Ben R on Jul 5, 2009 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They can only offer McDyess the vets minimum or the biannual exception

by intuitive on Jul 5, 2009 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My bad, I thought you were talking about Boston

by intuitive on Jul 5, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ya know...

for all of the Kobe-Artest tiffs they had, I’m actually not surprised to see that it never escalated into a full fledged fight. Plenty of players who dislike Kobe have taken shots at him, whether on the court (Raja Bell), or like a coward and through the media (Ruben Patterson, Ray Allen).

And considering that one of the two players involved is RON ARTEST, but yet it never turned into a fist ight, I’d say it’s REALLY no surprise that Ron Artest says he wanted to play with Kobe.

"The problem actually is that PER is a extra-long, double high wagon load of horse crap." - timbo (7/3/09)

by tandur on Jul 5, 2009 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Knock on wood

It worries me that Kobe isn’t planning on taking care of his pinkie. That being said, Artest has proven he has what it takes to lead a team deep into the playoffs with a hard-working, yet leadership-passive center. I don’t want to say it, but I think it’s an important point. Ariza doesn’t have that capacity.

by Dodgerblue15 on Jul 5, 2009 2:36 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

ron artest will certainly be the enforcer u mention; the one that has been lacking on this team forever. u are right about kobe defending himself and his teammates. there isn’t a guy on that team that has stood up to defend him, especially when it mattered the most…i hope ron will welcome that job as well.

by chaucer on Jul 5, 2009 5:38 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice post, Josh. Really well done.

Artest is a risk-reward gamble for the Lakers…

Trevor is a younger guy, still on the upswing. His game is still improving and he has emerged as one of the premiere defenders of the league, your slightly unfair accusation of him gambling excessively with the passing lanes notwithstanding. He’s the kind of guy you build a DEVELOPING team around, for sure.

Artest, on the other hand, is older — pretty much at his prime at age 29, things start to slide a bit during the 3 years of this contract. And he is a known quantity:

1. He has a wild temper. He tries to control it, but there are some things that can’t be controlled — it’s a force of nature, like an electrical storm or a tsunami… When Artest loses it, he GOES, and it doesn’t matter if he likes PJ or Lamar or Kobe. When that happens — not IF that happens, but WHEN that happens — he is on an extremely short leash with both officials and the league office and he will incur maximum penalties, which may well hamper the team.

2. Artest is an unrepentant gunner. If my mantra is “to beat the Lakers, get Kobe chucking,” now there is a clear second means of stopping them — just get the ball in Ron Ron’s hands. He will win a few games and lose many more with his ill-advised contested long jumpers — Kobe shots without the same chops for making them. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Artest on the offensive end is a net minus for the Lakers, not a net plus.

3. The marginal upgrade on defense represented by Artest vs. Ariza is minimal. There is no doubt that Artest has the reputation of being a premiere perimeter defender. But guess what? So is Trevor. The point is well taken that he matches up better with Lebron James and might be able to survive switches against bigs defending the pick and roll better than Trevor — but overall the youth, speed, and athleticism of Trevor will more than make up for the marginal gains of Ron Ron’s tough-and-stocky defense. Just think back to the playoffs? How many times did Ariza truly fail on defense? How many times was he out of his element? None that I recall. Compare and contrast to the defense of LO, who was eaten for breakfast by Rashard Lewis in the finals.

So while you have made a fine case for one possible scenario, forgive me for saying that this deal definitely does NOT make the Lakers better in the long term and it is difficult for me to see how it makes them anything but worse in the short term. Give me a role player on the upswing who knows his place over a Low BBIQ gunner with an unpredictable temperament and a track record of on- and off-court chaos.

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Jul 5, 2009 6:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Ariza is not a premier defender by any stretch of the imagination

He’s a good, but not great defender. His man-to-man coverage is decidedly average — save for his brilliant coverage of Turkoglu in Game 5, aided by the refs swallowing their whistles on his near-constant hand-checking, which Artest always gets away with mind you — and he was good in the passing lanes and steals in general. That said, he’s never put out there to say: “I’m shutting this guy down. He’s my cooler.” Artest locks people down, and brings a level of intimidation Ariza simply doesn’t have. Against wings, Artest is by far the superior defender, with Ariza’s only main advantage over him being his higher agility, which doesn’t have a whole lot of utility against stronger wings. As I noted below, Ariza’s big advantage was his ability to guard quick one and two guards, as he is quicker than Artest, but the current vogue in the league, especially among contending teams, is having superstar wings that can create their own shot and have offenses based around them. Artest is a far better matchup in these cases. The only team I’d argue this hurts us against is San Antonio, as we don’t have Ariza to guard Parker, but otherwise, it’s a great matchup against most of the league.

by Ben R on Jul 5, 2009 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have to agree with Ben

I believe I said this in my post, but Ariza is NOT a “premier” defender. He is a very good one, but not on Artest’s level.

My “unfair accusation” of him gambling too much in the passing lanes wasn’t mean to denigrate Trevor’s defense. The point was more that he is a very good defender, but that his reputation as an “elite” defender is due in large part to those highlight steals which come from playing the passing lanes. Artest, on the other hand, got his reputation as a defender for being a guy that simply shuts you down, night in and night out, making you work hard and forcing you into bad shots. I’m not really saying Ariza gambles “too much” for steals — I’m just saying that he’s a good defender, but his propensity to get steals causes the media to hype him up as a “great” or “premier” defender, which he is not yet. It’s the highlight factor.

As for Artest on offense… he shot 5% better than Ariza from 3-point range in 08-09 — 40% on 3s is not exactly inefficient. And as athletic as Ariza is, Artest is much more capable of getting close to the rim than Ariza. Trevor relies on his athletic slashing ability, but he doesn’t have the body control that Kobe does, or the pull up jumper. Ron, on the other hand, can drive much more effectively than you would think just by looking at him.

Then there’s his post-up game. You know how one of the big difference between Kobe and LeBron is the post-up game? Kobe is the master; LeBron ain’t got one. That post-up ability is HUGE. Artest has it; Ariza ain’t even goin’ there.

In the end, your point that Ariza is a great young piece to build a developing team with (with, not around) is very accurate. But as I’ve stated before, the Lakers aren’t in that mode. That’s why selling their draft pick was a fantastic move. It’s also why this move was a great one. In a couple years, Ariza may be better than Artest. Right now, he is not. Not nearly. And the Lakers need to make the decisions that allow them to win NOW. And this was that decision. Especially when you consider what we paid for Ron, and what we would have had to pay for Trevor.

Strength & Honor
16...15...14...13...12...11...10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2...1...CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

by Josh Tucker on Jul 5, 2009 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I ditto the Ariza bit

Trevor got way too much credit last season for being a great defender. Compared to most of the Lakers, Trevor was a premier defender. But compared to the real cream of the crop in the NBA, Trevor was poor. He benefited from several factors:

1. He played for the Los Angeles Lakers. Exposure through the roof.
2. He played for a championship contender franchise. More exposure.
3. He became the starter on the LA Lakers, and a contender. More exposure.
4. He was given the task of guarding Orlando’s X-Factor in the NBA Finals. BLING BLING!

Leaving your team in bad defensive position because you constantly gamble for steals in the passing lane is not a premier defender. (Unless you always got the steal, which he didn’t.) Getting pushed around by marginally bigger SFs (Carmelo), getting frustated, and getting into foul trouble, is not a premier defender.

"The problem actually is that PER is a extra-long, double high wagon load of horse crap." - timbo (7/3/09)

by tandur on Jul 5, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Remember Leandro Barbosa in the FIBA Americas tournament?

Remember what Kobe did to him? THAT is what premier defenders are capable of. Kobe has done similar things to guys like freakin’ Dwyane Wade. Not that he does that EVERY TIME, but he is CAPABLE of it. There is no doubt in my mind that Artest is capable of that kind of defense. Now, do you see Ariza as being capable of pulling something like that off? I don’t. Good defender, yes; premier, no.

Strength & Honor
16...15...14...13...12...11...10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2...1...CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

by Josh Tucker on Jul 6, 2009 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

One key advantage we had with Ariza

Is that we were able to stick him on quick penetrating point guards; Tony Parker is a great example. Fisher is far too slow and Farmar’s and Brown’s fundamentals aren’t all there yet — although I think Brown’s ceiling is large. Ariza has the length to bother Parker’s shot and the agility to stay with him. Conversely, as Josh notes, we gain advantage against larger wings. The most conspicuous instance in which this was visible was Melo simply abusing Ariza for the whole Denver series. Ariza simply didn’t have the strength to contend with Melo and we had to put Kobe on him, forcing him to expend energy on defense that we desperately needed for offense. Artest can defend wings that Kobe normally guards, freeing up more energy for him on the other end. I’d say the advantage goes towards Artest in this situation.

by Ben R on Jul 5, 2009 6:45 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree that’s a big trade-off. I know they put Ariza on Parker very successfully and I could swear he also checked Chris Paul some (although NO is not nearly the rival that SA is.)

Having Artest to guard Melo, LeBron & Pierce will be great though.

by lazNirv on Jul 5, 2009 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rasheed Going to Boston...does it really matter?

As far as the East Coast teams we just have to worry about which team comes out of the East. Boston, Cleveland or any team it doesn’t matter. As we seen the with the Cavs the regular season is meaningless. Who do the Lakers have to compete against?

by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Jul 5, 2009 6:49 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Rasheed stretches the floor

It’ll be pretty tough to guard Sheed with Allen, Pierce and KG … while I have my complaints about Sheed hanging too much beyond the arc and not rebounding enough, he does shoot the 3 which will always keep the floor spread.

Control yourself
Take only what you need from it

by PeanutButterSpread on Jul 5, 2009 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it makes Boston a lot tougher. Especially if KG comes back at full strength.

But just like Bynum, Gasol & Odom I think you probably see only two of Kendrick Perkins, KG & Sheed on the floor at one time.

by lazNirv on Jul 5, 2009 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sheed might come off their bench IMO

It’ll definitely make their bench better than it was last season.

Control yourself
Take only what you need from it

by PeanutButterSpread on Jul 5, 2009 7:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The thing I’ll miss most about Ariza is HUSTLE

I won’t deny that Ron Artest is an upgrade in terms of talent over TA, but if there was one thing about Ariza that impressed me the most (besides his hard work and dedication to improve) was his hustle. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen him not give up on a play whether he goes for a steal, a block, a rebound, etc. It’s why we, as fans, love him.

You can have all the talent in the world, but if you don’t hustle or if you give up on plays then there are reasons why fans don’t like Vince Carter or Tracy McGrady. Just because you missed your first 7 shots, doesn’t mean you can redeem yourself.

Time and time again, TA would redeem himself.

I hope Ron will bring the same hustle and determination that TA brought.

Control yourself
Take only what you need from it

by PeanutButterSpread on Jul 5, 2009 6:49 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Along those same lines

You never see Ron Artest give up either. Even in that game 7, when the Rockets were beaten, he was playing as hard in the closing minutes as he was at the opening tip. They bring different things.You probably won’t see Artest running down guys for blocks, but he won’t back down on defense until the buzzer sounds. What hasn’t been mentioned is the mentality that Artest brings. That Rockets team valued his tenacity and Battier’s mind. They were the co-leaders of the Rockets. Artest brings a fire and ferocity that matches Kobe’s. Obviously, his mind is not as refined, but let’s not sell Artest short on the fact that he brings it every night all the time.

by Dodgerblue15 on Jul 5, 2009 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you even watch the Houston series?

Artest hustles, and he hustles HARD. He’s been hustling much longer than Ariza has, and don’t even try to argue – Ariza’s had one breakthrough year, and that was this year. Artest has been around since ’99, doing it up defensively since then.

But, we all know the arguments for potential loss of “ceiling-less” talent taht could have been in the form of Ariza. We’ll see how it progresses next year @ Houston since he’ll have the starting job (most likely) and substantially more playing time.

EH

Find the latest in stars * media * hype+ * sports * fashion
@ STRKNG LIGHTS BLOG (http://streakinglights.blogspot.com/)

by STREAKINGLIGHTS on Jul 6, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

All the things TA did are things Artest can do as well or better. Hustle is important and if they’re was one thing the Lakers are losing it is hustle. If there are any problems it will be early on and the Lakers don’t have too many tough games early on. If bynum plays well and doesn’t get injured and artest fits well in the system the Lakers will get this DONE.

by KobeisGod on Aug 31, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sheed might come off their bench IMO

It’ll definitely make their bench better than it was last season.

Control yourself
Take only what you need from it

by PeanutButterSpread on Jul 5, 2009 7:09 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Here's the thing about hustle...

While watching the Houston series, how many times did you see Artest give up on a play? How often did you feel like he wasn’t hustling, working his ass off, giving it 120%?

Strength & Honor
16...15...14...13...12...11...10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2...1...CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

by Josh Tucker on Jul 5, 2009 7:31 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Salient point

He took less money to come here for one reason — he wants a ring. Motivation isn’t going to be a problem next year.

by Ben R on Jul 5, 2009 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We already know this

He’s already said he doesn’t care about money – and we know he wants a (few) ring(s) to add to an already (albiet, questionable to some extent) successful career.

He’s a hard-nosed player, and we all already know how much “defensive toughness” he brings to there’s no point re-iteriating it. We already know how much a “loose cannon” he’s labelled, and how Phil Jackson has worked with more difficult people, kobe’s the leader, etc etc…

As Josh puts it – we know he puts in the 120%. The real question is, how much work will Kobe and Ron do this summer, and if Kobe can get Artest doing the program Ariza did (his shooting practice program) and get him to be more consistent. If that can work out, then I see no reason as to doubt the Lakers in their run for the 2010 championship.

EH

Find the latest in stars * media * hype+ * sports * fashion
@ STRKNG LIGHTS BLOG (http://streakinglights.blogspot.com/)

by STREAKINGLIGHTS on Jul 6, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shooting isn't the problem; it's getting Artest to play within the system

Artest shot over 40% from three-point range last year despite frequently throwing up a couple bone-headed treys a game. He’s a fantastic shooter when his feet are set. Only question is whether he’ll subsume his personality and fit into our offense as a spot-up shooter and occasional post-up player.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

by Ben R on Jul 6, 2009 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

NOT KOBES...

shooting coach is Craig Hodges. anyone that watched him play knows its his program that got Ariza where he is today. his famous shooting tip is to ‘aim for the imaginery line 2inches in front and 6inches above the rim’. swishhhhh

by rydamee on Jul 6, 2009 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually Craig Hodges helped Ariza during the season and during spring training, but during the summer Kobe gave Ariza a “book” type of thing. This supposed book was something like a full workout to help Trevor improve his jumper (something like midrange jumper 300 shots, 3 point 200 shots something along these lines) that he would just repeat every day during the off season in order to improve.

by intuitive on Jul 6, 2009 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That (something like midrange jumper 300 shots, 3 point 200 shots something along these lines) was just an example of what it might have said in the instructional that Kobe gave Ariza. By no means is that what it actually said.

by intuitive on Jul 6, 2009 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Quite right

And it was probably more detailed than that. But that’s the idea. And if you ask Trevor, he put a lot of stock in it.

Strength & Honor
16...15...14...13...12...11...10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2...1...CHAMPIONSHIP!!!

by Josh Tucker on Jul 6, 2009 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I came up with a decent idea

you know how in Houston Yao would post up and when the double team came he’d pass it out to scatter the double team and get it back then make his move what if Kobe and Ron or Pau and Ron tried this. Kobe’s the best post up guard in the league, Pau has such great post up moves, and if the defense decides not to go out and defend Ron, Ron’s a great shooter when he gets a look.
I don’t know if it would fit in the triangle but it’s not a terrible idea.

by KobeisGod on Aug 31, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i like said in previous posts

artest is an upgrade over ariza on offense and defense. on offense, kobe and pau generated most of his points because they were constantly double, usually off his man. who in their right mind is going to leave artest open? this allows kobe and pau to face single teams way more than double teams. that alone makes artest an upgrade over ariza on offense. i won’t even go into the ways artest can create for himself better than ariza.

on defense, i don’t believe i have anything to say that josh hasn’t already said.

on a side note, ariza should fire david lee asap. lee was able to get away with his tactics with bynum because centers like him are hard to find. players like ariza aren’t. i don’t mean to sound like an ariza hater because i love him to death

by Adamas on Jul 5, 2009 8:00 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree 100% on getting rid of David Lee

Read this from TSN (Canada’s version of ESPN):

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/Tim_Chisholm/?id=283558

EH

Find the latest in stars * media * hype+ * sports * fashion
@ STRKNG LIGHTS BLOG (http://streakinglights.blogspot.com/)

by STREAKINGLIGHTS on Jul 6, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and ...

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/beaconnews/sports/blogentries/index.html?bbPostId=B3t4VwPhP2X7Cz8LrSWxHAxvJCz4WNoUHM8rSwCzEgHJQU6hwKH&bbParentWidgetId=B8vwmR5OGX2YzEEvHManmHqJ

Even though I don’t always agree with David Friedman, he has a good point – We all love Ariza, but in reality he’s nothing more than a role player.- and we don’t need him, we just need a player willing to play the SF position well…

EH

Find the latest in stars * media * hype+ * sports * fashion
@ STRKNG LIGHTS BLOG (http://streakinglights.blogspot.com/)

by STREAKINGLIGHTS on Jul 6, 2009 1:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The fact that Artest is more aggressive and can play the 4 makes him more valuable !

Don’t get me wrong I will miss Trevs dunks and steals but at this time in his career he isn’t as valuable as Artest.
Plus Ron can create his own shot more than TA

Paul D. Kelley

BN is a myopic site

by so.cal.native1952 on Jul 28, 2009 12:47 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs


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