Kobe Bryant: At the Top of His Game
Kobe Bryant is 30 years old. In August, he'll be 31. In basketball years, that's getting pretty high up there, and as a result, the consensus among sports writers is somewhere between "he is not the player he once was" and "he can't continue to play at this level for much longer." The problem? He's been as good as ever, and he shows no signs of slowing down.
I believe the problem here is that people are evaluating Kobe based on expectations, rather than reality. It's like a referee who expects a foul to occur in a certain situation; when that situation occurs, he immediately calls the foul – not because there was one, but because he was already predisposed, be it consciously or subconsciously, to the idea that a foul would occur in that situation. Much like that ref, who is officiating based on expectations rather than based on what he sees in front of him, many in the sports world are judging Kobe Bryant based on their expectation that his performance should be declining, if not now then soon.
But what is right there in front of their eyes tells a very different story. And not only is Kobe Bryant playing amazing basketball in his own right, but even when compared to LeBron James (whose individual performance has fans, bloggers, and media types raving) Kobe Bryant has been better — both in terms of individual performance and end result.
Let's review, shall we? We'll breeze right on through the first two rounds of the playoffs, where Kobe was "just" pretty great, and then spend some time on the Western Conference Finals, where he was truly magnificent.
In the first round, Bryant started slowly. He took only two shots in the first quarters of each of the first two games, and an average of only five shots by half. In the third game, he shot poorly, as did most of his teammates. In Game 4, however, Kobe changed his approach. He had been looking to facilitate his teammates early in the game, looking for his shot more and more later on. In that fourth game, he took eight shots in the first quarter, making six of them, and then hit four of five shots in the second quarter. He went into the half with 24 points on 10-13 shooting. He finished the game with 38 points on 16-24 shooting (67%), along with six rebounds and two steals. His True Shooting Percentage (TS%) for that game was an astounding 72.5%. In the next game, he scored 31 points on an excellent 62.1% True Shooting, adding four steals and four assists, to lead the Lakers to an 11-point win to close out the series.
A slow start, perhaps, but after a necessary adjustment, I'd say that's not too shabby.
In the second round, Bryant faced the defensive duo of Shane Battier and Ron Artest. In these two players, the Rockets had what no other team has ever been able to throw at Bryant: not one, but two elite perimeter defenders on the court at the same time, whose primary purpose was to make Kobe's life difficult for 48 "minutes" every other day. Rarely has Kobe has to work so hard on the offensive end, and yet, this was nothing like LeBron James vs. Boston. Artest and Battier "held" Bryant to 27.4 points on 45.3% shooting (just 1.4% below his season average), 34.4% from distance, 5.0 rebounds, and 3.7 assists per game. Not exactly basement-dwelling numbers. In addition, Kobe turned the ball over only 1.57 times per game, while collecting 2.0 steals per game on the other end.
Not his best series ever, but when that's the best that two premier perimeter defenders can do against Kobe, it seems counter intuitive to suggest that Bryant is playing anything other than excellent basketball.
And now we get to the good stuff, because the Western Conference Finals against Denver was one of Kobe Bryant's best series ever. He didn't waste any time, dropping 40 points on the Nuggets, on 59.3% True Shooting, along with six rebounds, four assists, and only one turnover. Most importantly, the Lakers won, and mostly thanks to Bryant. In a two-point victory, Kobe scored the Lakers' final six points. He scored a total 18 points in the fourth quarter, coolly hitting all nine of his free throws along the way. He also doled out two assists in the final frame, making him responsible for 23 of the Lakers' 31 fourth quarter points.
In Game 2, another contest decided by a single possession, the Lakers lost, but Kobe Bryant still continued to perform. He scored 32 points on only 20 shots, good for 65.6% True Shooting. He also had five rebounds, three assists, a block, and a steal, and by (questionable) design, he never got the chance to take potential game-tying shot.
In Game 3, Kobe Bryant continued his otherworldly performance, scoring 41 points on only 24 shots, continuing his incredible efficiency with 65.1% True Shooting accuracy. He added six rebounds, five assists, and two steals, versus only one turnover, as he led the Lakers to a closely contested come-from-behind win. Not surprisingly, Kobe scored 10 of the Lakers final 13 points.
Game 4 was a Nuggets' blowout, and while Bryant never gave up, I have come around to ascribe Chris's theory that Phil Jackson intentionally conceeded this game in exchange for much needed rest – leaving Kobe Bryant, never one to simply surrender, to go into desperation mode, throwing up tough, low-percentage shots in an unlikely effort to shoot the Lakers back into the game. Even still, Bryant shot a very decent 53.6% True Shooting, adding seven rebounds and five assists to go with only a single turnover.
In Game 5, the Lakers came back with a vengeance, and Kobe Bryant led the charge – but not in the way you'd expect. He scored 22 points, but he took only 13 shots in the game (an impressive average of 1.7 points per shot), but it was his passing that secured yet another hard-fought win for the Lakers. In this game, the Nuggets double teamed and trapped Bryant more aggressively than they ever had before, and he made them pay. With the game on the line, he resisted the urge to do it all himself, instead making every right decision. He let the double team come, and rather than passing out early, he made them commit. As a result, his passes out of the double teams were unbelievably difficult, but he hit them with precision and made them look easy. With two Nuggets fully committed to Bryant, his teammates were left to play 4-on-3, and they took advantage of their numbers over and over again.
If Bryant was brilliant in Game 5 – and he was, even without posting gaudy individual numbers – he was godlike in Game 6. The Lakers absolutely dominated this game, and once again, it started with Kobe. He scored 35 points on only 20 shots (1.75 points per shot), posting an absolutely unbelievable True Shooting Percentage of 73%. He also had 10 assists, six rebounds, one huge block, and yet again, only one turnover.
Once again, the Nuggets aggressively trapped Bryant in Game 6, and once again, he made all of the right decisions. He never forced his shot, never attempted to play one-on-many, and consistently found the open man for an easy score. Along the way, he provided some very solid leadership, encouraging Gasol to be aggressive with his own shot, diagramming plays during timeouts, and instructing players like Shannon Brown during free throw breaks. As a result, the Lakers rolled to a 27-point blowout to close out the series.
In the six games of the Western Conference Finals, Kobe Bryant made 48.1% of his shots from the floor, averaging 34 points, 5.8 assists, and 5.8 rebounds per game. Very importantly (as we will soon see), he shot 93.1% from the free throw line, making 67 of 72 attempts. He was incredibly efficient with his own shot, averaging 1.56 points per shot and scoring at an insanely great clip of 62.7% True Shooting over six games.
Throughout the Conference Finals – and even now that they are over – the general consensus has been that Kobe Bryant has been "not bad," and LeBron James has been incredible. Clearly, Bryant's performance by itself should be regarded as truly incredible. But beyond that, the disparity in how Bryant and James were seen in their respective Conference Finals series demonstrates the different predispositions with which people evaluate each player.
Consider the following:
- LeBron, a (very big) small forward whose primary advantage over Kobe is his supposedly unstoppable ability to get to the rim, shot 48.7% from the field, nearly identical to Kobe's 48.1% from the field.
- LeBron's True Shooting Percentage was a very solid 59.1% for the series, but Kobe's was an incredible 62.7%.
- LeBron took more three-pointers than Kobe did, but while Kobe made his at a respectable rate of 34.4%, LeBron shot a miserable 29.7% from distance.
- LeBron took more free throws than Kobe did, but he hit only 74.5% of them, whereas Kobe hit 93.1% of his. (Important: In the fourth quarter of Game 3, LeBron missed 5 free throws that may have cost him the game. More on this later.)
- LeBron turned the ball over 4.17 times per game; Kobe only turned the ball over 2.17 times per game. (Important: In the fourth quarter and overtime of Game 4, LeBron committed 7 turnovers that may have cost him the game. More on this later.)
- LeBron scored 4.5 points more than Kobe during the Conference Finals, but he needed 4 extra shots per game to do so (and 5.3 extra shooting possessions, when shot attempts that result in free throws are accounted for).
Considering all of the above, it baffles me that the talking heads continue to underrate Kobe Bryant's performance in the Conference Finals, while ranting and raving to no end about LeBron James' brilliance.
Even more important than all of the above, however, was the result of the six Conference Finals games that each player participated in. While LeBron James was statistically and individually impressive, he also dominated the ball for his team. When Kobe has done the same thing in the past, he has been criticized for taking his teammates out of the game. Why is it that now, with LeBron doing the same, he doesn't receive the same criticism?
During the Eastern Conference Finals, the Cavaliers' offense essentially reverted back to that old "give it to LeBron and let him do something" offense. Is it really any surprise that the productivity of LeBron's teammates suffered while they were standing around watching and waiting for him to do something with the ball? It shouldn't be; an offense so completely dominated by one player can only be so effective. And yet, somehow, LeBron's teammates are receiving all the blame for their unexpected playoff exit. LeBron deserves his share, as well, for dominating the ball and taking his teammates out of the game. It worked once, in Game 5; the rest of the time, it hurt his team.
Some will point to LeBron's assists: he averaged an impressive eight assists in the Eastern Conference Finals. Again, I ask you, is it any surprise that he is collecting assists when the majority of the Cavs' possessions end in LeBron making a play with the shot clock winding down? The "give it to LeBron" offense does not encourage ball movement. That extra pass? There isn't time for it, and even if there was, players aren't moving enough to make it worthwhile, because they have been too busy standing around waiting for LeBron. Shoot enough, and you will score plenty of points; pass enough in situations where additional passing is not encouraged, and you will rack up plenty of assists. None of that makes an offense built on waiting for LeBron to do something late in the shot clock anything close to efficient.
On the other hand, while LeBron was dominating the ball and putting up incredible stats, all the while stifling his team's offense and taking his teammates out of the game, Kobe Bryant was on the other side of the country, worrying more about winning than statistics. While LeBron was taking over at the end of games, dominating the offense, Kobe Bryant was gladly giving up the ball to facilitate ball movement and the creation of incredibly easy shots. While LeBron was busy putting on individual performances that would end in losses, Kobe was sharing the ball and allowing his teammates to share the moment with him. As a result, that moment was much more enjoyable, both for Bryant and for his teammates.
The key statistic: In six games, Kobe Bryant took 131 shots; LeBron James took 154, also in six games. Adjusting to account for shooting possessions that ended in free throws, the disparity grows even larger, with LeBron (195) using 32 more shooting possessions than Kobe (163) – an average of 5.3 additional shots per game. Impressed by LeBron's 38.5 points per game? Consider that Kobe sacrificed his own shots to get his team wins, but if he had taken as many shots as LeBron, he would have averaged 41 points per game.
And that's not where it ends. As the bullet points above show, it's quite a stretch to actually suggest that LeBron James was better than Kobe Bryant in the Conference Finals – but if you're still not convinced, consider this. As I mentioned above, LeBron James committed 4.17 turnovers per game to Kobe's 2.17; in Game 4, he committed seven turnovers in the fourth quarter and overtime alone. Orlando won the pivotal game by two points, putting Cleveland in a hole they would never be able to dig out of. Had LeBron been able to control the ball in the fourth quarter, the overtime period would never have been necessary; had he gotten control in overtime, the Cavs might still have won the game.
And how about Game 3? LeBron missed five free throws in the fourth quarter alone. The Magic won by 10, but before the final 34 seconds, in which they increased their lead by five points due to "garbage time" fouling, Orlando had only a five-point lead. Had LeBron made those five free throws — the way Kobe made all nine of his in the fourth quarter of Game 1 (decided by two points) — the game would have been tied with 34 seconds left, and the end-of-game fouling would have been unnecessary. Again, the Cavaliers would have had a great chance of winning that game.
Here's the point: A look at Kobe Bryant's performances should tell you that he has had a stellar playoffs, and that the Western Conference Finals was among the best series of his career (which, in his case, is saying a lot). His incredible numbers for the Western Conference Finals only reinforce this observation. And if you're still not convinced, an honest evaluation of his performance compared to that of LeBron James, whose individual play in the Conference Finals is being lauded as some of the best basketball ever seen, will show you that Bryant has actually been better than James. He has been more efficient offensively, he has avoided key mistakes like missed free throws and hordes of turnovers that potentially cost LeBron two games, and he has kept his teammates involved and made all the right decisions in close, important games. In the end, only the final result matters, and while LeBron was busy playing his own game and racking up his own statistics, Kobe Bryant was sacrificing some of his own production in order to collect the most important statistic of all: Wins.
By any measure, Kobe Bryant has been as good as ever in these playoffs. LeBron's Eastern Conference Finals performance may be hailed as one of the greatest of all time, but Kobe's Western Conference Finals performance was even better. And while LeBron is back at home, trying to convince us that his refusal to congratulate the Magic or talk to the media wasn't poor sportsmanship, Kobe Bryant and the Lakers are heading into the Finals at the top of their games.
The "big three-oh"? It means nothing to Kobe.
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Comments
It's 3 am so i haven't even read this...
but i’m soooo reading it tomorrow ;)
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Jun 3, 2009 3:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Very well said
The bias on the media is getting fu^king annoying.
Oohh LeBron did this, LeBron did that. Kobe? Meh.
Stupid ignorant little bitches. I think after the Conference Finals, we all know who’s better than Kobe and LeBron. I’ll give you a hint, he’s not from Cleveland.
by Bassman500 on Jun 3, 2009 4:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Joe for a well-written and beautifully analyzed article. It is long overdue. The media has tunnel vision. “Nuff” respect to you.
by Paije on Jun 3, 2009 4:45 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Josh
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FYI
Folks, in case you’re wondering, this wasn’t meant to go up until this afternoon – it was just so late last night when I finished it that I completely forgot about scheduling. That’s why it has been removed from the front page, but not to worry – this afternoon, I will put it back where it belongs.
Strength & Honor
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by Josh Tucker on Jun 3, 2009 7:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Terrible Post
Why don’t you evaluate Kobe Bryant when he didn’t have Gasol, Bynum, Ariza, but had Cook, Kwayme and (omg!) Smush Parker? I guarantee you his numbers during those playoff series were pretty terrible (from an efficiency perspective). Of course Bryant is playing the best basketball of his career when teamed up w/ elite athletes; however, that says nothing about Lebron.
With that said, I would still take Kobe over anyone in the league if I need to win a championship now.
by scalito on Jun 3, 2009 8:32 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Funny
Because up until the ECF, everyone was saying that the Cavs were a better team, that LeBron had better teammates, berating the Lakers as a team, etc. What, they lose one series and all the sudden LeBron is awesome and his teammates suddenly suck? Sorry, no. They’re the same team that won 66 games in the regular season and swept the first two rounds.
And the idea that LeBron’s teammates are even close to being as bad as Smush Parker, Brian Cook, and Kwame Brown, which seems to be implied here, is utterly laughable. LeBron has never played on a team that bad (at least his previous “bad” teams played defense, even if they sucked on offense).
Also, I have looked quite in depth at Kobe in previous years. It can be found on RespectKobe.com. And as a matter of fact, he was pretty awesome. Think they took a vastly superior Phoenix team to 7 games because of Smush Parker? Right.
Strength & Honor
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by Josh Tucker on Jun 3, 2009 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very thorough job, Josh
I suspect because of it, it will produce the most emotional reactions from both side of the Kobe/Lebron debate.
It’s also full of contextual nuance (which I agree with), but a lot of the people who don’t like to have that in their supposedly objective analysis aren’t going to agree.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know what he's getting worked up for...
It wasn’t like I was bashing Kobe — In fact, I think I praised him. You started off okay comparing Kobe’s regular season vs. postseason averages and percentages, but bringing Lebron in the debate to validate Kobe’s greatness is ridiculous. He has nothing to do with Kobe’s resurgence and/or decline. Only Kobe does, and apparently he really isn’t in decline. I prefer the triple threat Kobe over the “I-scored-61-at-Madison-Square-Gardent-because-I’m-shooting-a-documentary-with-Spike-Lee” Kobe. Lebron has NOTHING to do with this.
by scalito on Jun 3, 2009 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because actually his numbers from the playoffs series in 2006 and 2005 were pretty phenomenal too
Haven’t calculate the true shooting % but in 2006:
27.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.1 apg, on 49.7%. But those individual stats still don’t tell the whole story of how he put that team on his back against a stacked Phoenix team.
And Lebron may have nothing to do with it, but he’s the foil that most people are using to compare to Kobe, especially the way they compare their statistics without context.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2006 and 2007, correction
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It isn't about LeBron
It’s about the standard people use to evaluate Kobe. The comparison is made to show that if people think LeBron has been great, they should recognize similar (if not better) greatness from Kobe in this postseason, as well. It was case in point for how they’re judging Kobe not based on any consistent measure, but based on preconceived expectations.
Strength & Honor
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by Josh Tucker on Jun 3, 2009 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Josh
I don’t have to tell you this but I’ll say it anyway. The people arguing with you here live very subjective lives. Lebron can do no wrong because he dances and smiles for the Camera. Kobe is a ignigma that they can’t relate to. Great job on this bit.
by Sensei1 on Jun 3, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That really is the point here
It’s harder to show how one-sided people are when they criticize Kobe when there is no example to prove the double-standard, you can only talk abstractly.
But now that a different super duper star has lost, it’s easier to make the comparison and show how people said one thing about Kobe, but say another when it comes to Lebron.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apples and oranges thinking
There are two problems with straight-up comparing LeBron’s numbers against the Magic and Kobe’s against the Nuggets:
1) Kobe wasn’t playing against the Magic and LeBron wasn’t playing against the Nuggets
2) Kobe wasn’t playing on the Cavs and LeBron wasn’t playing on the Lakers
There are ways to tease out individual performance from team performance over the course of a season, when everybody plays everybody, but drawing conclusions from two particular match-ups seems like a weak way to establish Kobe’s supremacy. We may get a better idea about how good the Magic defense is when Kobe plays them later this week, but that still doesn’t prove anything. Really what you have to do is imagine LeBron in a Lakers uniform playing with the same line-up of Gasol, Odom, Ariza etc., and ask yourself, “Would that team do better or worse than the same team with Kobe?” Likewise you have to put Kobe in a Cavs jersey and ask yourself, “Would those Cavs have beaten the Magic with Kobe instead of LeBron?” I don’t know the answer, but it doesn’t seem obvious to me that Kobe could have done better than LeBron at beating the Magic, or that LeBron would have doomed the Lakers to a loss against the Nuggets. All that said, Kobe’s played very well, no argument there.
by horsecow on Jun 3, 2009 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop Being a Tool
Until you have the ability to either make it one day in the NBA or construct a piece as well written as this, try shutting up.
by Sensei1 on Jun 3, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and Lakers fans, what's your obsession w/ Lebron?
Maybe you guys live in fantasy land, believing anything said on TV must be the truth – thus, you get ansy when anyone suggests Lebron maybe better than Kobe. There really isn’t a debate. 3 rings to 0. 6 finals appearances to 1. I wouldn’t even argue with anyone about who is better because Kobe is. What is the point of even discussing who is better because the evidence is too obvious? Just laugh about it. And please, no more articles about Lebron. He isn’t playing until the 2009-2010 season. I’m sure Lakers fans would appreciate it too.
by scalito on Jun 3, 2009 9:16 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's not our obession, it's the mainstream media's
Their actions (incessant promotion of Lebron as the best, and Kobe as second best) provoke a natural reaction.
There’s nothing wrong with explaining your opinion, in fact, that’s what you do on a blog. That’s what we’re all doing. Some are just more thorough than others, and Josh happens to be one of the most thorough out there.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, it is used here simply to show how the media are treating Kobe's WCF performance differently
If it had been any other player being hailed as playing one of the greatest series ever, while Kobe was not getting such recognition despite the fact that he was clearly better, the point would be the same. It would be an example to show that the media are approaching Kobe with different standards and expectations. That’s all it is.
Strength & Honor
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by Josh Tucker on Jun 3, 2009 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The answer is....
I think the perceived lack of effort during the Houston series (especially compared to Lebron’s steamrolling and jaunt to the ECF) made the media fall out of love with the Lakers. It was hard to watch, so many analysts jumped on the Cavs’ bandwagon and questioned the Lakers’ sense of entitlement, even suggesting that the Lakers weren’t really intersested. Stuff like this makes you nit-pick and find things wrong with people and/or teams. That’s my opinion.
by scalito on Jun 3, 2009 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hence the reason we are discussing this?
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Jun 3, 2009 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and Rockets fans
didn’t we dispense of your team 2 rounds ago? Maybe you should just stay home at your own site and figure out a way to keep your center healthy and keep Ron Artest this offseason instead of trolling over here.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IDIOT Lakers fan
The last time I checked, Kobe and Gasol played the ENTIRE series, T-mac and Yao did not. The series still went seven games. Losers!
by scalito on Jun 3, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stay above the belt here fellas
No need to make this turn nasty.
by C.A. Clark on Jun 3, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you're a better team without them.
Who cares how long it went. Atlanta took Boston 7. Winning the series counts, not how many games it took.
by wondahbap on Jun 3, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You forgot to mention
that your team actually had a better record without Tracy McGrady in the regular season, so not having him couldn’t have been that much of a crutch — hell they wanted to trade him at the deadline!!!
Also, when our team decided to show up, we won by 40 and 19.
Way to throw your team’s effort under the bus. Nice.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
“27.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.1 apg, on 49.7%. But those individual stats still don’t tell the whole story of how he put that team on his back against a stacked Phoenix team”
Okay, you guys must not be serious. Phoenix? Who doesn’t have a statistically amazing series against them?
by scalito on Jun 3, 2009 9:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You asked
Why don’t you evaluate Kobe Bryant when he didn’t have Gasol, Bynum, Ariza, but had Cook, Kwayme and (omg!) Smush Parker? I guarantee you his numbers during those playoff series were pretty terrible (from an efficiency perspective). Of course Bryant is playing the best basketball of his career when teamed up w/ elite athletes; however, that says nothing about Lebron.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
REPLY FAIL!!
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
way misleading
I’ll give you that Kobe’s numbers are good. They should be—an MVP, an All-Star, makes a huge salary, tons of playoff experience, and one of the top 5 ever at his position.
That said, this post is a joke. Lebron has Joe Smith, Ben Wallace, Varajeo and Igalskas (however you spell their names), Wally, Boobie, and who else? I’d rate that supporting cast a bit better than what Iverson had with Philly back in the day. And then Mo and Delonte (both really just above average role-players) shot low percentage all series long. What do you expect Lebron to do? Then Mike Brown is an over rated coach, esp. compared to all the experience Phil Jackson brings to the table. And to claim Lebron was about statistics and not winning is not only absurd, but totally ignores what Kobe has been about since Shaq left until halfway through this year’s series with Houston. Come on…Yeah, Lebron made some bad passes and missed his foul shots. But put Kobe on this same team with the same coaching staff and what do you think Kobe would be doing? Seriously…and then put Lebron on the Lakers. So I respect Kobe’s high numbers and skill level, even at age 30, but the logic behind the argument here and taking Lebron’s numbers out of context (seriously, this team is a 25 win team without Lebron and they’re in the conference finals!) is really shoddy work.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 9:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Did this article get linked somewhere on HP or something?
It’s really bringing in the trolls.
The whole point and essence of this kind of discussion is this: Lebron received tremendous praise and appreciation when the Cavs were doing well and then all of a sudden when they lose, the entire organization besides him sucks. Lebron is an amazing player, but if you live by the King then you must also die by the King.
This is the kind of thing that Sports analysts do. They compare numbers put up by different players. You can argue “well, what if Tom Brady was on the 49’ers??? Then he’d suck!” and that kind of thing but that would make it all absolutely pointless.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Jun 3, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not exactly trolls
I don’t think you know what that word means — just because people disagree with you doesn’t make them trolls. The article was linked on BDL, so maybe it brought in some non-homers (based on the incredulous and hostile responses by many people here, there must not be much healthy debate on this site). If the point of this article is really “Kobe doesn’t get enough praise” then I think you need to come out from under that rock and pay attention. Kobe gets plenty of praise.
by horsecow on Jun 3, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trolls was the wrong word, good point.
Kobe does get praise, but this article was meant to debunk people that say Kobe is past his prime. It was also meant to praise Kobe for a tremendous WCF series that no one has recognized. Like Josh said, if anybody else in the NBA had had Kobe’s WCF series, it would have been talked about for a long time, but that sort of greatness is expected of Kobe so it’s just another footnote in his career.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Jun 3, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how much of it is for ratings? once the lakers appeared to be getting through, why focus on kobe? but maybe the media had to milk lebron to take advantage of his popularity? just a thought why he was (rightly, given his numbers) focused on and kobe wasn’t. i mean, what are the ratings for when the spurs make the finals?
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this could very well be the case...
…and is a big part of the reason we need guys like Josh to write articles like this :)
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Jun 3, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you read any of kelly dwyer’s stuff at yahoo.com sports on the nba homepage, especially ‘behind the box score’? you might dig it.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, trolls is not the right word in this case
but just be aware that there are always here, waiting for something controversial or opposite to what they believe. Josh’s post was both
by Sideout11 on Jun 3, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was also linked on TrueHoop
It was bound to get a ton of attention cuz it had LeBron & Kobe.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 3, 2009 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BDL, not TrueHoop
Strength & Honor
16...15...14...13...12...11...10...9...8...7...6...5...4...
by Josh Tucker on Jun 4, 2009 1:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Lakers are a 35 win team without Kobe
i think people just look at the talent and not what is necessary to illicit said talent. Kobe means everything to this team. Case in point; for all of his skill, how good was Odom with the Clippers or Heat? Has Pau played better in Memphis or Los Angeles? How did Trevor Ariza and Shannon Brown do before coming to the Lakers?
Yes, they Lakers have an immense amount of talent, but all of the elite teams do. Yet each team also has a star player that holds everything together, and it is that player’s job to bring out the best in his teammates. Kobe was able to when it counted (see WCF Game 5) where as LeBron was not. That’s why it’s ridiculous to call LeBron’s series incredible while ignoring what Kobe managed to do. It’s not that LeBron has no talent, it’s that he is young and still has to mature as a franchise player. Kobe wasn’t there until a year or two ago, but he has learned how to be a true leader and teacher, not just a scorer. One day LeBron will get there too, but such qualities are often ignored in favor of a box score.
by Sideout11 on Jun 3, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I should also note
that this point was made down below, I just hadn’t read that far when I started my comment.
Same goes for the “everyone has help” comment. Wasn’t trying to steal arguments. Great (Lakers) minds just think alike
by Sideout11 on Jun 3, 2009 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only because you are a current Bruin and I am an old fart Bruin do I get to do this
illicit: Not sanctioned by custom or law
elicit: To bring or draw out (something latent)
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
There is something about UCLA and grammar. My dad used to correct mine all of the time and I hated it, but now I do it to other people like it’s second nature. Plus, I’m not sure if you read BruinsNation, but that place is like one giant spell check. There have been entire posts dedicated to the nuances of sentence structure.
by Sideout11 on Jun 3, 2009 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
Something about UCLA and grammar. Yeah, we value education!
Smiley faces.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lastly...
1)i’m not a lebron worshiper…i mean, the MVP can’t even behave like a good sport and walks off the court—just lame.
2)i still maintain that the “trade” that brought gasol to l.a. last year is one of the biggest scams ever and without that, kobe wouldn’t even be in the finals two years in a row. (not that gasol helped last year when boston was wiping the floor with the lakers.)
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 9:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget about the celtics scam.
I live here in washington and if you want to talk scams lets talk about the former sonics team. We had given up Ray Allen and…sorry but I can’t quite remember his name and we took crap and Ray Allen went to the Celtics. Then KG went to the Celtics with Allen being a big part of his decision. So the former “champs” were also built on a lie but nobody knows about that because it never left the Seattle Times.
by JOSHYBOY on Jun 3, 2009 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually, jeff green is progressing well and will be an all-star, so they got good value for an aging ray allen.
by Todd L on Jun 4, 2009 4:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
very well said.....
I couldnt agree more to everything you said with this column. Its so frustrating to see why everyone are so contended with Lebron where he is lacking the most principle to ever play basketball. LACK OF SPORTMANSHIP. And this so called superstar is the heir to the throne of JORDAN? please, the standards of Jordan has nothing compare to James, I wished people stop and comparing him to the GREATNESS. If Jordan is the GOD of NBA, James still had lots of climbing to do reach the heaven. Whereas KOBE is on the way up already. We all know the greatness of the player can be only measured to how he played the game and the counts of his champs rings. James still had none so people can just forget his stats paper, because until he can bring his own team to the finals, and win the gold ball statue, he is zero. Didnt we already see this same problem when they lost to BOSTON last year? PLEASE….STOP COMPARING HIM TO KOBE.
by Pinky B on Jun 3, 2009 9:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
pinky b
so what’s kobe done without shaq? failed to make the playoffs, right? so much for bringing his team to the finals (and kobe was in his prime during those years). and the 3 titles they did win when the lakers had shaq? if the blazers don’t collapse in the 4th quarter and if the east actually had a real team to play, then take away 1 if not 2 of them. and, a case can be made that the lakers lost to the pistons precisely because of kobe’s inability to play within the system…last year and this year: in the finals largely b/c of the addition of gasol. my point? kobe is good (see my first comment already posted), but please stop comparing him to jordan.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 10:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"In the finals largely because of the addition of Gasol"
That’s like saying Jordan made the finals because of the addition of Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson.
Both true, but not saying much.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OR Shaq's inabilty to dominate Ben Wallace and Rasheed.
Re-watch the series, my man.
Shaq had big problems, and as we saw last year, when a defense effectively limits the Triangle when it is reliant on a post player, it greatly effects the offense. Which in turn let the Pistons shut down the perimeter.
Do you know what your talking about? Because all I’m reading from you are wear regurgitated popular thoughts and story lines. No insight, and no sense. You sound like Bill Simmons.
by wondahbap on Jun 3, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even better
how about Shaq’s inability to help defend on a pick and roll? Billups f’ing killed us in that series because Shaq couldn’t protect the basket and they consistently put him in pick and roll defense where he’s a terrible player. You can live with it when he’s dominating the Nets to the tune of a 32/14/4 every night, but not when Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace can guard you.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please stop acting like Jordan created the universe in 6 days and rested on the 7th
Here’s a little newsflash for everyone: Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has won a championship without help since the days of Wilt (and even then he only won 2).
I am so tired (meaning a post this summer) of people criticizing Kobe or anybody else for not winning one on his own. Shaq had Kobe and Wade. Kobe had Shaq and now Pau. Jordan had Pippen. Boston had 3 all-stars, as did San Antonio and Detriot. LeBron has no one, hence he has no rings.
It’s very simple, and it’s one of the things that makes the NBA so great…you can’t go it alone, no matter how good you are
by Sideout11 on Jun 3, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had lunch with a colleague the other day
I almost smashed my face on the dining table when he said “Kobe and Lebron can’t win it alone, the only guy who could do that was Michael Jordan”.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL.
Pippen is top 50 all time, Rodman was all world defense and rebounding, and Steve Kerr was the most efficient offensive player of all time. (at least according to Basketball-reference.com)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/off_rtg_career.html
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Jun 3, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Wilt did have help.
His first title team had two other hall of famers as well as a 7-time all star in Chet Walker. He was the fourth leading scorer on the second title team, which also featured two other hall of famers. In total, Wilt’s crew was far better than many championship teams (including all four spurs teams around Duncan to name a few)
by gsdubs on Jun 3, 2009 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Numbers, numbers, numbers...
The funny thing about numbers is that you can always present them in a way that makes your case. Bottom line, they both played great. The difference is that Lebron has much less to work with. The main advantage for Kobe being a true compliment player in Gasol. Where as Lebron was asked to do everything (and almost did). Kobe should have shot a much higher percentage from the field and had more assists. Take an objective view and put Lebron on that Laker team. I’m willing to bet that his numbers and wins go through the roof. You put Kobe on this Cavs team and you get the Kobe of 3 or 4 years ago.
by phillykid24 on Jun 3, 2009 10:28 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
-Completely False-
Lebron has much less to work with? In the regular season/going into the playoffs, everyone said that Lebron’s supporting cast was actually BETTER than the Lakers…and you want to know why the Cavs sucked during the Orlando series? Because Lebron was simply dominating the offense and wasnt allowing his teammates to figure things out. Whereas Kobe trusts his teammates→he allows his teammates to attempt to get into the game for 3 quarters. Then, in the fourth, if his teammates still haven’t caught on fire, he takes over and wrecks the other team.
by inXile on Jun 3, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I wrote elsewhere on this post
Last year, the Cavs took the eventual champion Celtics to seven games.
This year, the Cavs had a much better team. It can’t be that much less than what Kobe had to work with. Kobe’s teammates may play better offense, but considering both sides of the floor, it isn’t that big of a gap between the Lakers cast and the Cavs cast. The Cavs cast just got hit by some very unfavorable matchups in the Orlando series.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you watch the same series I did?
Where as Lebron was asked to do everything (and almost did).
That couldn’t be further from the truth. He dominated the ball the entire series, when other players on his team could have exploited Orlando’s matchup problems, especially whoever was being guarded by Hedo Turkoglu who’s probably one of the 5 worst defenders in the NBA. When you have the ball all the time, you should put up insane statistics when you’re as good as Lebron. Jordan did the same things in the ‘86 and ’88 playoffs but it wasn’t until Phil installed the triangle and he became a force in the post and learned to handle double teams did those Bulls teams take off. Lebron needs to develop a post up game, which he doesn’t really have yet, to maximize the use of his teammates. The Lakers do this through Gasol, Odom, and Kobe (and Walton to extent when he has a smaller man on him).
The other thing — look at the 4th quarters of the conference finals. Kobe played nearly perfect basketball in the 4th quarters of those games, and you can’t pin any of the Laker losses in that series on Kobe’s play down the stretch. But, as Josh mentioned above, Lebron missed 5 free throws down the stretch of Game 3 that probably cost the Cavs the win and then turned it over 7 times in the 4th quarter and overtime in Game 4 (4 in the OT period alone!!!!) which certainly cost his team the game. Lebron and Kobe are similarly great talents at different stages of their careers and I think that both have claim to being the best in the league right now. But Kobe is the better closer down the stretch because he’s nearly impossible to guard as he can beat you in every way imaginable and even great defense can’t stop him when he’s on, just ask Shane Battier. If you double Lebron and force him to shoot jumpers, he’ll miss enough for you to have a chance — you can’t say that about Kobe.
All that said, if Lebron becomes a consistent jump shooter he’ll probably be the toughest guy to defend in the history of the NBA.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good food for thought…wasn’t hedo on delonte? agree with the lack of post game, given his size. maybe that had to do with dwight being down low to offer help d?
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Howard's positioning
had a lot to do with Orlando not believing that Big Z was going to hit more than 35% of his 17 foot jump shots. They were right, and the Cavs don’t have a good shooter at the spot who can make Dwight pay for cheating to the strong side with Lebron in the post.
That said, wouldn’t you like Lebron in the post abusing Lewis and Howard in the paint and getting them in foul trouble? When you double him there you get more looks for your shooters than you do when you shade the lane as he’s crab dribbling near the 3 point line. He’ll develop his post play sooner or later and it’s going to have a dramatic effect on his teammates, especially if he can learn that Jordan, Kobe fadeaway.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree…so is that lebron’s “fault” (not the lack of a dominant post game, which should develop, but not trying to get fouls) or is that brown’s fault as coach for lack of strategy?
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would say neither
He didn’t have a post game all year, so asking Brown to strategize that into a gameplan would be a bad thing to do. Also, their gameplan won them 66 games in the regular season, so why fix what isn’t broken?
The league is all about matchups, and Orlando just happened to have two guys (Pietrus and Lewis) who could make Lebron work hard for his points so that the rest of the team didn’t have to double constantly, which is what makes Lebron a great player: he’s great at passing out of double teams and on the pick and roll.
That’s the difference, for me, between Lebron and Kobe: Lebron doesn’t have a reliable jump shot, so he has to work harder for his points. Look at how tired he was in Games 1,4, and 6 at the end of games — Kobe’s points just come easier because he’s one of the best jump shooters the game has ever seen from 18’ out. He can rise up and bury shots but he can also drive and get to line, but he doesn’t HAVE to do that to be effective. Which is why he was able to be effective in the Rocket’s series against great defenders like Artest and Battier.
The book on Lebron is to keep him out of the paint, off the line, and make him beat you with jump shots which very few teams have the personnel to do (Orlando does) — his game just isn’t quite there yet, but I think that it’s coming. If he develops his post game and becomes a knock-down shooter from 18’, he’ll be unstoppable. It would also help if he was an 80% or better free throw shooter like Jordan was.
One more thing, can we back up the wagon on Carmelo joining the party after the double stinkbombs in games 5 and 6 of the WCF? Superstars don’t fade in big moments, they rise up and answer the call. I just don’t think that ’Melo has the fire for that type of thing.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it does
without a doubt…which gets me to my larger point: we can argue about individual greatness but there’s so much more at stake and that goes into it, from teammates to coaching staff to how the refs call games. what gets me is that so many people (like josh tucker) decline to go there when talking about kobe. i mean, you can almost argue (admittedly, very weakly) that pippen was the reason the bulls were so good seeing how the bulls almost made the finals once jordan left. or that without rodman, the bulls most likely would have lost to malone’s jazz and kemp’s sonics since rodman played insanelly good d on both of them. so without shaq, kobe doesn’t even make the playoffs. i guess i’m just more impressed with what lebron was able to accomplish this year than by what kobe has done, given the players and coaching staff each one is surrounded by and to kind of gloss over this while nitpicking about numbers and kind of downplaying why precisely lebron does have the ball so often given his situation is pretty negligent. kobe’s numbers reflect hard work in the offseason but also being surrounded by great teammates. lebron’s reflect being surrounded by overpaid role players.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 10:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Kobe didn't make the playoffs for one year, but has made it ever year since
So I’m not sure why you are saying “without shaq, kobe doesn’t even make the playoffs”
And the fact is, Lebron’s team this year won 66 games, was a better team than last year, and last year’s team took the Celtics to 7 games, so what happened this year?
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
b/c without shaq, he didn’t make the playoffs, as you yourself say. and then lost in the first round for 2 years in a row, if my memory serves correct, including letting the suns come back from a few games down, which michael didn’t let happen (assuming you’re fine with comparing the two players). what happened this year? lebron was mvp and even better than last year. and mo williams playing instead of sasha p. and the ability to win at home in the regular season. and totally getting exposed by the magic. not lebron’s fault that ferry has dumped millions into paying ben wallace and wally when both of them are jokes and they need an athletic perimeter defender. also, if garnett and powe are healthy this year, it’d most likely be celtics in the finals again.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Michael didn't play the Suns with Kobe's team
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
why i said “if you’re fine with comparing the two players.” my point: once up a few games, michael didn’t lose. but good point—way off topic.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm fine comparing the players
But the teams they played with were completely different.
Look, MJ never lost in the Finals – but is that because of something inherent in MJ, or because of the strength of his teammates combined with his own abilities? The latter seems more likely to me. Michael never won before Phil Jackson or Scottie Pippen.
IF MJ had lost more often, if he was saddled with lesser teammates than he had, the story would be about how big a loser he is, how he can’t win. And that would be just as unfair.
So I guess the lesson is, don’t lose. Which is probably why Kobe was so upset that he didn’t have the pieces back in 2006, because he knew that was how he would be judged, how ever unfair that is.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i still maintain that without rodman, they would have been hard pressed to win the last 3 titles…
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well then we agree
It gets annoying to me for anyone, when Kobe/Lebron/MJ wins, they get 100% credit for winning, and when their teams lose, it’s all blamed on the supporting cast.
BUT that 2006 Lakers cast, that was deserved. And they did only win something like 42 or 45 games in the regular season.
You don’t get 50+ wins without good teammates.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would agree with you
but MJ had a great talent for elevating his game in the NBA Finals. Witness the insane numbers from the Portland and Phoenix series in ’92 and ’93 and his dismantling of a very good Jazz team two years in a row in the Finals.
Yes, Rodman had a lot to do with it, defending Malone without needing a lot of help and double-teams, but you can’t deny that MJ had in his head that he was going to prove that Malone didn’t deserve the ‘97 MVP and that he decided to just destroy Malone’s team to prove his point.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, when Kobe averaged 35 ppg with Smush Parker, kwame Brown, Luke Walton and Lamar Odom starting.
Then nearly took out the Suns, what does that mean to you?
Your argument is weak. If LeBron is supposed to be greater than MJ, then it shouldn’t matter. The sum of the Magic’s parts should be no greater than Cleveland’s, it’s just that when a team gets beat, all of a sudden player’s are re-cast. Hedo and Rashard are good, but perennial all-stars? No. What is the difference? Your easily swayed view points.
by wondahbap on Jun 3, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
whoah! where in any of my posts have i claimed “lebron is supposed to be greater than mj”?" and actually, team games are all about both the sum of the parts (including coaching staff and front office decisions) as well as the performance of their superstars who get paid top dollar. lebron held up his part in the series against orlando. rest of the cavs have been role players for 4 years now and that didn’t change this year except with the addition of mo who put up decent numbers but not a #2 go to player. still looking for where i said hedo and rashard are perennial all-stars—as far as i remember, i haven’t said anything about the magic players. interesting how you know about my easily swayed view points when you’ve never encountered them before my posts here today and the posts i’ve posted have been fairly clear and don’t contain any of the charges you’re bringing against me. also, lamar odom is an all-star caliber player when healthy and it means that kobe choked if he couldn’t close out the suns if he’s as good as people claim he is and has the 2nd best coach ever.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said you claimed those things
but your comments infer that Kobe is only as good as the team he plays with,and LeBron’s failure to get to the Finals is solely based on his team.
Losing to the Suns does not equate because the Suns were much better and were supposed to win. The Cavs were the #1 seed in the Playoffs!
You could say, “lebron held up his part in the series against orlando,” but it could easily be said, that he was forcing it, and that is why the Cavs lost. You may have not brought up Michael, but that is who LeBron is supposedly going to surpass someday, so blaming it on his teammates is pathetic. He can’t have it both ways.
My point is that the Magic aren’t supposed to be any better than the Cavs were supposed to be, so stop giving LBJ excuses.
by wondahbap on Jun 3, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
excuses for what, wondahbap? what more can a player do on a basketball court? score 40, 10, and 10? i’ve admitted he turned it over too much. the article points out he missed foul shots while dwight was making his (better than shaq could do—good to see dwight working on that part of his game). by the numbers, kobe had a great series too, against a lesser defensive team and with better weapons around him. that’s not a shot at kobe or taking blame from lebron—ask any gm in the nba who they’d rather have as their surrounding cast and every one will say the lakers over the cavs. remember when the nuggets beat the sonics? and the warriors beat the mavs? sometimes teams with worse records match up better. sometimes teams over achieve in the regular season and choke in the playoffs. honestly—what more did you want lebron to do in the series? pass it to wally for more airballs? pass it to wallace for missed layups? hope mo would finally find his stroke? the cavs lost to the better team. lebron played an amazing series. and since you point out i didn’t bring up michael, please don’t assume i was going there.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Any GM will take the Lakers"
Not sure that would have been the case prior to the Orlando series. The Cavs were a much better defensive team than the Lakers this year.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Jun 3, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah—good point. going off emotion right now. i’ll stick with a majority of gms.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see where you're coming from, but...
I think Josh’s article is still very valid. I also don’t like the argument of “well what if you put player X here” or “well what if this team played that team”.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Jun 3, 2009 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's funny how all of asudden the Magic are the elite defensive team.
Everything changes when LBJ is involved. When did this happen?
Of course the Lakers are better, that’s why we are in the Finals, and expect to win it all. Isn’t that the point? but, they are better because of Kobe. Don’t you get it? Because. Of. Kobe. The same was said about LeBron, up until the Cavs lost. Then it was his team’s fault. But all year, all anyone heard was how LeBron is a better teammate, he makes his team better, blah, blah, blah.
This is the problem. The Lakers role players were playing some terrible basketball, and some still are, yet Kobe pulled us through.
Don’t you get this Todd? LeBron couldn’t.
That’s all I have to say.
by wondahbap on Jun 3, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did anyone see
how the Nuggets cruised through their first two opponents and how the Magic nearly lost to a massively depleted Celtics team? I would argue that the Nuggets were playing much better basketball the last three weeks of the season and the playoffs than any team in the league.
I love revisionist history, don’t you?
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
unfortunately, i wish it was all you had to say. no—the lakers are where they are b/c of coaching, b/c of odom, b/c of GASOL, and also b/c of kobe. it’s also not funny—the magic have the defensive player of the year and they have bigs who can guard the perimeter. not sure where humor comes into that. so the lakers lost the finals last year b/c of why, given your logic? and they lost out of the playoffs the last few years before that and didn’t make it one year why, given your logic and argument? so i guess either i don’t get it, and your’e right, or kobe isn’t that good. or the top superstars are limited by who their teammates are despite doing all they can to try to win games. (wasn’t it kobe who decided to stop shooting in the second half of that game 7 against the suns?) how about this—the cavs won 66 games because of lebron. the cavs were in the conference finals because of lebron. and no, kobe didn’t “pull you through.” you’re not even on the team, wondahbap. you’re like me—sitting here wasting time writing about it.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One thing I agree with finally
… the top superstars are limited by who their teammates are despite doing all they can to try to win games.
And this includes Michael Jordan.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen to that
I get tired of the Jordan worship too. Dude was a great player, but he also played with a guy who was considered one of the 50 greatest living players at the time and an amazing array of solid role players.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Answers...
so the lakers lost the finals last year b/c of why, given your logic?
That’s a pretty easy question actually. Both Odom and Pau disappeared and Ray Allen had a ridiculous series shooting the ball, as did pretty much all the other Celtics.
and they lost out of the playoffs the last few years before that and didn’t make it one year why, given your logic and argument?
Lack of supporting cast and a much better conference. If you put the ‘05/’06 Cavs in the Western conference they don’t make the playoffs. They beat up on a clearly inferior Eastern Conference that year. Similar to the next year when they got swept in the finals by the third best team in the West that year. You put those two Laker teams in the East and they’re one of the top 4 teams in that conference.
the cavs won 66 games because of lebron. the cavs were in the conference finals because of lebron. and no, kobe didn’t "pull you through."
Agreed, and they did it in a conference that clearly wasn’t as good as the West in terms of depth, and by dominating at home which seemed to disappear in the last series. The Lakers are probably still a playoff team without Kobe, but they aren’t much of one. How many playoff appearances did Gasol and Odom make prior to coming to LA? Two between them — those aren’t great odds, and Gasol’s teams in Memphis were pretty damn similar to Kobe’s teams post-Shaq in terms of overall talent. How many titles has Shaq won without another solid to great player? Zero — three with Kobe and one with Wade, who singlehandedly won that Finals by diving into crowds of 3 players reckelessly and getting to the line 20 times a game because of horrible officiating.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
fourstick—good answers. seems you’re willing to admit players can disappear in a series when before they’d been present (see cavs supporting cast for most of series, esp. mo). i think odom would have kept making the playoffs if he’d stayed in miami. gasol is good—a great pick up for the lakers, honestly, that gets them in the realm of championship team. i agree—with memphis, that squad had reached it’s cap and gasol not good enough to get a team through on his own (who is?). also, these were rhetorical questions asking for wondhabap to use his own logic he’s using to argue against lebron against kobe. agree about shaq—alonzo was the better big for the heat that series. shaq got lucky he had dwade and that dallas kind of went awol. bigger point: so so hard to win a title on your own; lebron is more on his own right now than is kobe.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't argiung against Lebron so much as I was pointing out
that it is ridiculous to blame his teammates, and exonerate him, and claim Kobe only benefits from better teammates.\
You implied that.
by wondahbap on Jun 3, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
seems you’re willing to admit players can disappear in a series when before they’d been present (see cavs supporting cast for most of series, esp. mo).
A lot of ours have disappeared, to the point, that people wonder how our bench was called the best in the NBA. Everyone knows Fish is pretty much washed up, and Lamar has been inconsistent, save for the Jazz series. But we overcame that because Kobe has been spectacular.
You make our point.
by wondahbap on Jun 3, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hold on...
We overcame because Gasol played great the last two games, Odom decided it was time to take off the Tony Battie mask and become Lamar Odom, and Trever Ariza hit shots. Kobe’s play was solid all series, but it was the play of those other guys that really put the Lakers over the top.
Also, credit Phil for playing Luke Walton more. He provides rebounding, passing, and game smarts (well, most of the time) and the second unit really seems to function better when he is on the floor.
FWIW, go back and watch the Nuggets in game 1 or game 4 and then watch them in game 5 or 6. Did someone slip some Ambien in their water or something? They were crashing the boards, blocking shots, and running all over hell defensively in those first two wins and they look totally asleep in the final two games.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that.
Kobe’s play was solid all series, but it was the play of those other guys that really put the Lakers over the top.
Those performances put us over the top. That is why I expect to win It all, but Kobe was the steadying force.
by wondahbap on Jun 3, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The steadying force that gives us cushion to deal with the inconsistency.
by wondahbap on Jun 3, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why it's peculiar
When someone says that “Pau Gasol may be the most important player” on the Lakers, but that’s only because you know Kobe is going to bring it. It seems the more variable your performance, the more “Important” your performance is (see Odom, Lamar).
The only reason other players seem more important is because Kobe’s performance is so consistently good.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1)i thought you had nothing more to say.
2)now it’s “our” point…unless i was misreading you down below, you seem to be inferring, with pretty strong and blatant language, that it is b/c of kobe that the lakers are winners and are great. by implication, this means that when the lakers lose, it is also b/c of kobe, which is all i’ve been trying to point out to you. so claim his numbers and his greatness. but also claim they lose because of him if you’re fine with doing the former. or else it sounds like being open to thinking that kobe has been on strong teams and weak teams, has lost to better teams, and the same for lebron, and they’re both darn good players.
3)i’m not exonerating lebron. this isn’t a trial. seriously—38, 8, and 8 over 6 games deep in the playoffs. please honestly answer this question: what more could lebron have done to help his team, given who is on his team and how they were playing during the series, to win? I would like to hear what you have to say. Short of making some free throws and not turning the ball over (as this post has said and I agreed with), what else?
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would have had Phil Jackson coach the team
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As the post also mentioned
NOT go back to that 2007-08 offense where LeBron pounds the ball into the floor, waiting, his teammates stand there and watch him, and wait for him to do something, and then he does something.
It’s not that it’s necessarily selfish – he’s more than willing to pass. It’s that, selfless as it may be, it is still counterproductive to team play.
When the offense equals the “LeBron iso,” players don’t move. When players don’t move, there is no ball movement. When there is no ball movement, LeBron may pass, but that player has to shoot. This results in higher assist numbers for LeBron, but it also means the ball isn’t moving and the shots aren’t good ones.
All of this is exacerbated by the fact that the LeBron iso typically wastes at least the first half of the shot clock. So, not only are players not moving, which already makes ball movement difficult and discourages the extra pass – but everything that does happen, happens late in the clock.
So if they want to try and make the extra pass to get a better shot, they can’t, because players aren’t moving and there is no time. This is what happens in the LeBron iso. It’s great for LeBon’s stats, not great for his teammates’ productivity.
The reason his teammates struggled isn’t just because they sucked. It’s because earlier in the season, they DIDN’T play the LeBron iso, they actually had an offense. During the playoffs, either Mike Brown or LeBron James (or both) decided that LeBron needed to just take over and do everything. That was a bad idea. He got his, but his teammates weren’t able to contribute nearly as much in the LeBron iso offense as they were earlier in the season, when they actually ran a real offense.
What else would I have had him do? Not take as many shots. Not play the LeBron iso. Give the ball up early. Be okay with not being in control. Be okay with not being the guy that either scores or assists on every assist. I know, it’s his legacy, it’s his claim to fame, it’s his trademark… but if he gave that up, his teammates would have more success, his team would have an offense, and he might have moved on to the Finals.
Trust us – Lakers fans know how effective a one-man offense is. The difference here is that, as we saw in the regular season, LeBron’s teammates actually ARE more than capable of running an excellent offense and really contributing.
Strength & Honor
16...15...14...13...12...11...10...9...8...7...6...5...4...
by Josh Tucker on Jun 3, 2009 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
tucker—i applaud your tenacity in defending yours. i’m still waiting for wondahbap to make a similar sort of argument, but ain’t gonna happen. i think you’re leaving out a key point: mismatchs. the cavs struggled against the magic in the regular season and they struggled in the playoffs. i think part of the lebron iso was a result of lebron, coaching, and realizing the magic had the cavs number at literallly 4 of 5 spots on the floor. what else you gonna go? again—as i’ve said in another post, if you want to talk about padding stats and say it’s not about winning, then you need to be willing to go there with kobe. so is this the (post)season he’s finally learned to trust his team? after 10 years and countless of hours in jackson’s great system? what’s that say about kobe as a player and person? i think the cavs just had an exceptionally good season overall with a subpar bench and an over rated coach and they were exposed by the magic and lebron had to do what he could do. i’m not attached to either kobe or lebron, just think that comparing their numbers as your original post did without pointing out how crap lebron’s team played and blaming this on lebron’s ball hogging—guess i’m just not buying that argument, that’s all. just like you don’t need to buy mine.
by Todd L on Jun 4, 2009 5:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lebron is more on his own right now than is kobe.
This is true, but his team right now is better than the Lakers teams from ‘05-’07 and his own Cavs teams from ‘05-’07 when they made the Finals once, basically on the back of Lebron against an aging and war-weary Pistons team.
Here’s the rub though: most of the players that play with Kobe end up being better players than they are with other teams when they move on. The glaring exception would be Caron Butler, but I would argue that they are essentially the same type player, and are going to struggle to play together on the same team. You really can’t say that about Lebron. Big Z was better before Lebron got there (although his feet may have something to do with that) and Mo Williams was a much better player in Milwaukee last year than he was this season in Cleveland. Pavlovic has all but dropped off the face of the planet after showing some promise. I’m not saying that Lebron is a bad teammate, it’s just that great players seem to be able to lift the play of those around them, even if they are average players. Magic and Bird did that, as did MJ and Hakeem. Patrick Ewing couldn’t do it, neither could Charles Barkley or Clyde Drexler. Kobe seems to have that ability, even though he’s constantly painted as a selfish loner by a lot of sportswriters.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, in your opinion
Jordan’s ‘86 and ’88 seasons and Kobe’s ‘06 season were far more impressive to you than Jordan’s 6 titles or Kobe’s 5 Finals appearances? I’m just asking, because if that’s what you saying I vehemently disagree.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
losing threads… who you addressing this question to? as for me, all of jordan’s seasons were impressive b/c he was just darn fun to watch. as are kobe and lebron.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was directed at you, you can click on the up button to see who the comment is in response to
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
methodology
You’ve cherrypicked one round of the playoffs. That doesn’t really prove anything. If I go looking for one round to prove my point, I could probably prove that any player is better than any other player. The round you chose (conference finals) was a round in which LeBron played the team with the best defensive efficiency in the league, anchored by the defensive player of the year. The Nuggets were 8th in defensive efficiency with no remarkable perimeter defenders. A fairer assessment would look at the playoffs as a whole or at the regular season. If you take a large enough sample, there isn’t really any debate. LeBron blows Kobe out of the water statistically.
by pastrypride on Jun 3, 2009 11:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Never claimed this was evidence that Kobe is better than LeBron overall
Just said that he had been better than LeBron in this series. Under that context, it’s not cherry picking – it’s just discussing the topic at hand.
Strength & Honor
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by Josh Tucker on Jun 3, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would go one further....
If Kobe was better in this series, AND this was the best Lebron has ever been (as the media is claiming) THEN wouldn’t that make Kobe better overall???
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Jun 3, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oops
You’re right, my bad. And I take your point, claims of Kobe declining are probably exaggerated. (Though, again, I think if you take a larger sample, there’s a fair amount of truth to them.)
by pastrypride on Jun 3, 2009 11:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If you take that larger sample, you can also reach a better explanation
Two things:
- Kobe stepped back a little bit to allow his teammates room to grow this year. It has obviously paid off well. It’s also nothing new – check out his shot attempts and points per game for the last 3-4 years. Ever since 35+ per game, he’s gone down significantly in both categories each year, and the reason is that he’s facilitating more and building up his teammates.
- Kobe is 30, going on 31, and he’s very aware of this. Why kill yourself over a 32 game season when you no longer have anything left to prove in the regular season, and all that matters is the playoffs? And we’ve seen how incredible he’s been in the playoffs.
Based on that, a better conclusion based on this season wouldn’t be that he’s declining, so much that he’s taken a step back for multiple reasons – but is still more than capable, as we’re seeing now that everything is on the line.
By the way, he practiced with Team USA, played in FIBA Americas Tournament games, played all 82 games last year, played all the way through June in the playoffs, practiced again with Team USA, played all games in the Olympics (dominated the Gold Medal Game), played all 82 games this season, and all playoff games this postseason and is once again playing in June. Can you blame him for pacing himself? That’s no sprint, right there.
Consider what he’s done over the last 2 years, and I think you’ll agree, it’s not about decline… it’s about playing smart.
Strength & Honor
16...15...14...13...12...11...10...9...8...7...6...5...4...
by Josh Tucker on Jun 3, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe is going green, and conserving his energy.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
tucker—better points in these responses than your lead article. i think kobe is playing smarter and still has his competitive nature to match with his skills. hard to think after all these years he’s still hard to guard, outside of prince and battier, and really they just slow him down. also, amazing how players can maintain their peak for longer. bird was done by now, and these guys in their early 30s keep on going. getting harder to compare eras b/c of that.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I’ll add:
He’s become very, VERY good at picking his spots during games. He knows he can get this shot any time that he wants, so he looks to exploit matchups more than anything else. If Lamar or Pau have a favorable matchup, the offense will run through them. If Kobe is being guarded by Chauncey Billups or J.R. Smith then he’ll take the lead and force them to double, leaving an open shot for someone else. This was really the difference in the last to games of the WCF — the number of open shots everyone got because of Bryant and Gasol’s patience with the basketball and great passing skills.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know what? I just looked at Kobe’s career stats (both regular season and playoffs) and you’re right, there hasn’t been any substantial decline. FG%, PPG, FT%, 3P%, assists, and rebounds are all in the same ballpark as where they were in his championships years. (In some of the post-Shaq years he scored more points per game, but that obviously doesn’t mean much.)
by pastrypride on Jun 3, 2009 12:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think a lot of you missed the point of this article.
As much as you think it’s ridiculous to measure Kobe against what LeBron did (or should I say didn’t), so do we.
That is part of Josh’s point. There is a double standard when it comes to Kobe. Everyone praises LeBron for the same things we’ve seen from Kobe, yet Kobe was painted in a negative light for them.
Excuse after excuse is made for LeBron, so Josh merely turned the tables.
Don;t come here with that if LeBron played on the Lakers, or he doesn’t have help bullshit. Because there is NO EXCUSES for a 66 win team. Yes, Kobe has a better team. THAT IS EXACTLY WHY WE EXPECT TO WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP, while LeBron watches.
by wondahbap on Jun 3, 2009 12:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I thought the point of this article...
…was that Kobe is still very much so an amazing player, despite the fact that people think he’s “getting old” at 30. Josh compared Kobe to a player that people think is also amazing and in his prime age to prove this.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Jun 3, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wll that was the point
What I should have said, was there was another underlying point.
At least to me.
by wondahbap on Jun 3, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“yes, Kobe has a better team.” that normally translates into better numbers for the player on a better team, whether on the playground, in the rec league, or in the nba. i don’t think i’m making excuses for lebron—he put up ridiculous numbers, plain and simple. my point is that his numbers carry more weight, given that kobe plays on a better team. and, as pastrypride points out, lebron put up his numbers against the league’s premier defensive team, while kobe put his up against an average defensive team. if against the magic kobe puts up 38, 8, and 8 and hits a better % of foul shots and commits less turnovers and shakes hands whether he wins or loses, then i’ll be the first to admit that not only is kobe still at his peak (or around in that area—what’s the peak for someone who is already so good?) but that he had a better playoffs than lebron as an individual player.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LeBron's numbers were great
but he couldn’t get his 66 win team to win the series, nor could he finish (except for Game 2).
If he’s the player everyone wants him to be, then isn’t he supposed to win these games? Not blow 23 point leads, and lose close games.
LeBron’s stats didn’t mean shit. Him scoring 0 points in the 2nd quarter of Game 6 does, or the fact that he had 1 point in the 4th up until garbage time did. Those stats meant something to me.
The league’s premier defensive team? Since when?
by wondahbap on Jun 3, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so the 30 some consecutive points he was involved in as they won game 5 (i think it was that game) was left out of your response for what reason? and that near impossible 3 pointer he made while falling out of bounds? here’s the thing: he’s already the player i want him to be: fun to watch, capable of scoring, gets his team assists, rebounds, and can now defend. unfortunately, he shows he is a poor sport. not sure when any one player was expected to win a championship on their own. the thing is, if people are demanding it of lebron, then they need to demand it of kobe, who has a better supporting cast. and if we want to talk about someone disappearing when they’re supposed to win playoff games, and if someone is a kobe fan, then they have some explaining to do (last year, against the pistons, against the suns, etc.) or they are being hypocritical. also, since this season, regarding the magic and their d. wondahbap—let go of the anger. it’s ok if some people think kobe is over rated given his overall career vs. how much praise he gets. my own perspective is that if he wants to be considered a top 5 player, then he demands to be under scrutiny. the same for lebron. the fact that both of them by the time they hang up their shoes will probably be top 5 players, or at least top 15, speaks heaps about their skill level and i’m not taking that away from them.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, those points meant something in one game
but they still lost. So what is your point?
And Kobe’s accomplishments speak for themselves. I could care less if you disagree, just make a valid argument in doing so. My frustration is with your inability to do anything but repeat mumbo jumbo. Not what you thin, but why.
by wondahbap on Jun 3, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok. so re-read my posts. there’s a clear argument running through them all with evidence backing it up, including the one above about kobe’s fans being hypocrites.
by Todd L on Jun 3, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right...he was great in Game 5
But he was awful near the end of Game 4 and had they won that game, Game 5 would have given them a lead in the series and assured them a game 7 at home. But Lebron’s 3 overtime turnovers cost them that game more than anything. He was tired from carrying the load, but the problem is that he never comes out of games and is constantly involved in the offense with handling the basketball. He never gets a break.
Kobe has learned that he has to pick his spots. With the exception of a few games, like Game 3 against Denver, he knows he can’t put the team on his back and play 46 minutes while carrying the offensive load and guarding the other team’s best player. Lebron hasn’t figured this out yet, just like Kobe struggled with it in the years after the Shaq trade when he was desperate to prove that he was a great player apart from Shaq. I have no doubt that Lebron will learn this trait as it comes with experience for all great players.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, no one considers Lebron's ball dominance and showboating...
…and the detrimental effects it had on this team.
No one besides Lebron was prepared for a tough playoff series. This is partly Lebron’s fault and partly the coaching staffs fault for failing to maintain any discipline.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Jun 3, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to correct that last post, Kobe did have some seasons with higher PPG averages (05-06 through 07-08), but I don’t think these stats indicate that Kobe peaked in these years and has been declining since, given that his surrounding casts were much worse those years, and that his other stats are about the same.
by pastrypride on Jun 3, 2009 12:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think he was trying to prove
his greatness apart from Shaq. He had to prove to himself and the rest of the league that he could be a 35 ppg scorer and lead a team on his own. When he begged Phil to come back and coach a year or so later, he’d done all of that and was now focussed on leading a championship team.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he begged Phil to come back
Jerry Buss and Mitch made that decision.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh no...
Phil called Kobe “uncoachable” in his book, and he meant it. Kobe had become uncoachable because of his desire to succeed unencumbered by the legacy of other people like Phil and Shaq. He wanted out of the shadow, then realized a few years later that he wanted some more titles too, and realized what a mistake he had made with Phil.
Buss and Mitch wanted Phil back, but Phil wanted to ensure that Kobe was on board and requested that Kobe be the one to initiate the conversation. The Zen-Master — he is wise :)
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually at the end of the book he states
“Amazingly we came to a truce, even a higher level of trust”.
People only remember the “uncoachable” line, but this one came after that.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember that line as well
I think that he was talking about Kobe within the course of a season though, not necessarily how he felt about him as a person and a team player.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, so that softens the "uncoachable" line if he felt that way later
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hello Laker Fans!
Magic Fan here- I want to wish you all luck in the Finals. I am looking forward to a great series.
The kobe Lebron Debate is really tiring. But my 2cents-
Lebron and Kobe are amazing players and future hall of famers. That being said- Lebron is going through the same issue Kobe was a few years ago. His supporting cast didn’t get him over the hump. They were good enough to win 66 games and a great team during the regular season. They didn’t win the ECF. It happens.
Kobe has played a lot of years in the NBA but he is certainly not on the decline. He has learned to share the ball and spread the love around. And he has a better cast to help him with that. I would even pose the argument- if he is on the decline, he is improving mentally and understanding the game more than ever. He really knows how to manage the game now, almost like a great QB.
Again- I wish you all luck. I’m not interested in trash talk between 3QC and Silver Screen. Just thought I would chirp in.
by The Stan 'Stache on Jun 3, 2009 1:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I like the screen name.
We’re only getting a chance to debate this right now, because people don’t see the other side when Kobe loses.
It’s unfortunate that Lebron has to be the example, but if his team didn’t lose, we wouldn’t get to point out “see? see the double standard”?
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Double standard is the the best way to look at it
Let Kobe walk out on the opposing team and the media after losing a series and see what happens.
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Jun 3, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+10000
Seriously, he would never hear the end of that, and if he skipped the post game press conference? Are you fucking KIDDING ME!!! He’d be labeled the most selfish player in the history of sports.
Lebron does all of that and gets a “meh, he’s still the best player in the league and he doesn’t have any help”
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Talent made better
My problem with this whole debate is Kobe never gets respect for making those around him better. Never mind those Smush, Kwame, and Cook teams which is some of Kobe’s best work in my opinion, lets look who is around him now and how much better they are as a result of playing with Kobe. Derek Fisher, a 34 year old past his prime point guard who would start no where else in the league. Trevor Ariza who was pretty much a little thought about player on his way to becoming a journey man after playing with two teams in what four or so years? Pau Gasol, a good player who made a couple of all star games with good numbers(completely better now) and only been to the playoffs once and never out of the first round. Andrew Bynum a straight from high school project who is just starting to blossom. Luke Walton, enough said. Lamar Odom, the biggest enigma in the history of the league and the rest like Farmar, Sasha and Shannon speak for themselves. Not exactly future HOF material, but have all progressed and gotten much better playing with Kobe. Kobe has a good team around him, but he makes them that much better. He isnt playing with Pippen, or McHale and Parish or anyone like that by any means.
by BigShowtime on Jun 3, 2009 1:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Very good point...
Also, guys like Smush, Kwame, and Cook enjoyed the peaks of their career with Kobe (though they still had pretty lousy careers).
Everyone credits Pau Gasol with putting the Lakers over the hump, but no one gives the Lakers (namely Kobe Bryant and Phil Jackson) credit for returning the man to his all-star form.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Jun 3, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ummmmm, WHAT?
returning the man to his all-star form?
The year before he came to LA he averaged 20.8 ppg, 9.8 rebounds per game, along with over 2 blocks and 3.4 assists. He was hurt, and his team sucked before, but coming to LA didn’t revitalize his career. The only number that went up was shooting percentage, which resulted from not being the No.1 option and from taking fewer shots.
Kobe got a legit sidekick, whose game happened to fit perfectly in the triangle, and the team is better. Kobe did not make it so, that’s just what happens when teams get more talent. Heck, the only big change Pau made (aside from playing in the triangle) was eliminating those stupid 20-foot jumpers that he used to take.
by gsdubs on Jun 3, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gasol's shooting percentage increase is a huge deal
From 50.9% in Memphis career to 57.2%
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For reference
Lamar Odom 44.0% pre Lakers, 47.1% with Lakers
Chucky Atkins 41.0% non Lakers, 42.6% with Lakers
Caron Butler 44.2% non Lakers, 44.5% with Lakers
Kwame Brown 46.3% non Lakers, 54.6% with Lakers
Smush Parker 38.8% non Lakers, 44.1% with Lakers
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He became a second option, so?
Big guy isn’t primary scorer, takes less difficult shots. Kobe didn’t help this happen, Phil did a bit with the triangle. Mostly it was just the circumstances. Chances are, it happens if he’s next to Pierce or LeBron.
by gsdubs on Jun 3, 2009 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mo Williams – Season before Lebron 48.0%, Season with Lebron 46.7%
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You really don't want to go there...
Most players who’ve joined the Cavs have seen their shooting percentages decrease…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 4, 2009 5:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems about right
Delonte West – Non-Cavs, 44.4%, Cavs 45.2%
Wally Szcerbiak – Non-Cavs, 49.0%, Cavs 41.8%
And they’re not shooting more threes than they have over their career as a % of their FGs
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 4, 2009 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll respond to both of those
For Mo Williams, (Shrug). His 3-point percentage jumped by from 38 to 43. It’s also different for big guys since they take more high percentage shots. Guards get more open looks, but they are still not around the basket. I’ll use shaq as an example. His percentage rose about 2-2.5 percent when he became the second option in Miami (though his game skews it a bit since he only took the closest shots).
As for West and Wally. Well, West’s shooting percentage went up, not down. In fact, his numbers jumped a ton when he went from Seattle (RIP) to the Cavs.
Wally’s numbers on the other hand went down… but we are talking about a statue who can’t create his own shot. It seems like a miracle that he plays well at all. Looking at the percentages (45 overall, 41.1 from distance, 85 from the line) for a 31-year old whose numbers sucked the two years previous, I’d say that’s not awful at all (The kid shot better than an armada of Laker role players). No he’s not as good as he once was (and how that happened is still a question to ponder), but unathletic guys who don’t most tend to age really poorly. For god’s sake, we’re talking about a “shooting specialist” who only takes open jumpers, who managed to air ball two open shots in an elimination game.
Now I will say in all fairness, that LA is one of the two teams I can see Wally doing better on than he did this year (the other is Utah). Not because of Kobe, but because the triangle always needs that type of shooter (see: Walton, Fisher, Sasha). This does assume he could be taught all the reads.
by gsdubs on Jun 4, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course it's not because of Kobe
It’s for every reason but Kobe, because Kobe couldn’t possibly make players perform more effeciently.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 4, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How dare you even suggest such a thing.
by intuitive on Jun 4, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it.
Gasol came to a system where he benefitted from the triangle (Jackson) and second fiddle (Kobe).
That’s exactly the point I was making.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Jun 3, 2009 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember when that trade news broke on the Worldwide Leader
I was thinking: “This was the best possible guy in the entire league that the Lakers could acquire.” He’s built for the triangle. Great in the high post as a passer and a good shooter from 15 ft., commands a double in the low post and is an excellent passer out of the low post against double teams, great at hitting cutters and running the floor to establish good post position, great finisher and offensive rebounder, extremely high basketball IQ so he can pick up the finer points and more intricate details of the offense and use them to exploit the other team.
Defensively he was a butcher in Memphis, but he’s steadily improved in that arena as a member of the Lakers.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 4, 2009 5:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One qualm with the article
Brilliant, rational argument as always, Josh. Been reading your stuff since the early days of RespectKobe. You’re always able to make the arguments I want to make; the only difference is I come off sounding like a fanboy whereas you come off as reasonable, using sound statistical analysis. That said, I think precision passing is a bit of a misnomer for Kobe’s game 5 WCF performance; he had 7 turnovers. Difficult is an understatement for some of the types of passes he made; they were just flat out bad decisions.
by nick v on Jun 3, 2009 2:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
Kobe throws the ball away in the interior a LOT. I think it’s contagious because I see Fish, Farmar, and Ariza do it often times too. The Lakers give up entirely too many unforced turnovers.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Jun 3, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
7 turnovers
Do you remember the 7? I remember 4 of them being good passes the someone fumbled in the lane that should have been caught.
Kobe does make some careless passes, but there are some Laker player’s who should catch the ball a little better as well. Also, there are some times when Kobe is thinking 5 steps ahead while someone else is only at step 4 — that leads to a lot of miscommunication. He knows the offense so well that he’s constantly looking for advantages.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least one was a travel, and another an offensive foul
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can live with offensive fouls...
Especially in a game called my Danny or Joe Crawford…
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe 1 step ahead
I totally agree, fourstick. I think a lot of Kobe’s turnovers are a result of him being on another level than his teammates. It’s easy for us to see what he sees watching on TV, but playing with someone of that caliber is completely different. It’s hard to expect 21 year old Andrew Bynum who never played basketball or Lamar Odom who has always had questionable basketball intelligence to be ready for a quick flip across the court out of a double team. That’s why Pau is a perfect sidekick for Kobe; he expects those passes and gets to spots to receive them. My point, anyways, is that I agree that Kobe is one step ahead of everyone, but until his teammates reach the point where they are on his level, he has to tone it back, or risk more turnover riddled games.
by nick v on Jun 3, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That logic seems silly
Yes, in an ideal world, all players would be on the exact same page and all passes would be crisply thrown and caught. The problem is that this just isn’t an issue. Kobe had the 17th lowest turnover percent in the league this year and the Lakers were No. 5 in TO rate. The individual numbers are also pretty good in the post season. Turnovers are just not much of an issue for the guy, so there is no need to explain why they happen.
by gsdubs on Jun 3, 2009 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did have seven turnovers, but...
- Several were actually good passes that were bumbled by teammates
- The rest of his passing, to me, still outweighed this. Overall, it was great. And those turnovers did not put us at risk for a loss.
- Kobe also worked to address them. After one pick-n-roll play that Gasol bumbled, he came back down the next time and told Gasol, no pick-n-roll, you go.
Strength & Honor
16...15...14...13...12...11...10...9...8...7...6...5...4...
by Josh Tucker on Jun 3, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nor did they create fast breaks for the Nuggets
which is where they killed LA in their two wins in that series.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 4, 2009 5:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shaq Rooting for Kobe?
According to his Twitter feed, the Big Saguaro, or whatever he’s going by these days, will be pulling for his old running mate in Los Angeles during the NBA Finals.
``Thats right i am saying it today and today only, i want kobe bryant to get number 4, spread da word,‘’ Shaquille O’Neal wrote around 1:15 this afternoon.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 2:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok
I don’t care who Shaq is rooting for. Although I’m sure that will now lead Sportscenter….
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 3, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Until he decides he wants to make another rap
by Sideout11 on Jun 3, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
More on this, Shaq is really making nice
http://blogs.usatoday.com/gameon/2009/06/shaq-tweets-that-kobe-is-speaking-the-truth.html
O’Neal and Bryant don’t always agree but they are simpatico on this.
Here is what Shaq tweeted a little before midnight:
What kobe said to magic is true, I wouldn’t of won it without him fish and robert horry, and b shaw and fox and everybody dynasty baby
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I put that into the FanShots, but nobody reads those. I think it’s a fairly backhanded compliment listing not him alone but all those other players, too.
by Norsktroll on Jun 3, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it wasn't a backhanded compliment
It was a response to Kobe’s direct quote in an interview earlier in the day:
Q. Post Shaq what’s it mean to you to get the Lakers back to a championship level? And do you think in your own mind that you need to win a championship for your legacy without Shaq?
KOBE BRYANT: Not at all. It means nothing. To me it’s about winning another one, just because I want to win another one. People think Shaq would have won a championship without me on that team, they’re crazy, you know what I’m saying? We needed Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Ron Harper and everybody else, as well. I’m not worried about that at all.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another Shaq compliment..
THE_REAL_SHAQ thats right i am saying it today and today only, i want kobe bryant to get number 4, spread da word
by intuitive on Jun 3, 2009 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where have you been intu?
Getting restless with this wait til game 1?
Only 20 or so more hours!
by hertagnism on Jun 3, 2009 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s been a long five days. I’m hoping for Game 1 we come out with a lot of energy, cannot wait for Game 1 to start.
by intuitive on Jun 3, 2009 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The postulated LeBron era has been postponed. Again. And no matter what LeBron does in the future Kobe still needs to win this 4th title to move up into the top 10 players of all time. it's easy.
He is the best player on the team now. And the best player in the finals series. He knows it. Everyone knows it. He wants it. Bring it on. End of story.
by Norsktroll on Jun 3, 2009 4:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Pretty much stopped reading...
…when it said LeBron is a power-forward. Don’t put so much work into writing such a long piece and then immediately discredit it with two incorrect words.
Also… how does a 4.7% advantage on threes run the gamut from “respectable” to “miserable”? Unless you are just using “respectable” as a nicer sounding way of saying “completely average” or “mediocre”.
by Big Ticket on Jun 3, 2009 5:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's called a typo, and I fixed it
Come down off your high horse, bud.
As for 3-point shooting, sub-.300 is considered bad. Mid-.300s is average. .380 is very good, and .400 and up is excellent. When you’re shooting less than .300 from 3 but still taking over 6 threes per game, I call that miserable. Bad shooting, bad decision making to keep shooting.
Also, consider this: .344 on three-pointers is equivalent to .516 on two-pointers. .297 on three-pointers is equivalent to .446 on two-pointers. That’s becoming a pretty sizable difference. It’s not the difference between awesome and horrible, but it is the difference between acceptable (respectable) and bad – especially when you’re taking 6 per game. It should NOT be acceptable to take 6 threes per game when you only hit at a rate of .297. That is just terrible.
Strength & Honor
16...15...14...13...12...11...10...9...8...7...6...5...4...
by Josh Tucker on Jun 3, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
And this:
Out of the 8 players in the Eastern Conference Finals taking more than two 3 point attempts a game, .297 three point shooting puts Lebron in 7th out of 8 players, and last on the Cavaliers.
Out of the 9 players in the Western Conference Finals taking more than two 3 point attempts a game, .344 three point shooting puts Kobe in 4th out of 9 players.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 3, 2009 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
What’s Kobe’s 3% in the last 8 minutes of games? It’s got to be pretty high.
As far as the difference, Lebron’s team is at it’s best when he’s going to the rim. When he settles for 3’s, the other team wins, whether he’s making them or not.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 4, 2009 6:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice work there Josh.
The one thing I have a problem with the MSM is that they don’t evaluate players the same way and put an objective point of view. Whenever discussing a topic like this you will get people on either side that can’t look at things from the other side and that is understandable. You would think the media would be different.
The other thing that bothers me is that I have heard several analysts say that they don’t blame LeBron one bit for walking off the court and straight to the bus without congratulations to Magic players or talking to the media. I don’t care how bad you feel for losing a series, you show some sportsmanship and shake the other teams hands after the game. I bet if Kobe did the same thing he probably would have been ripped for it.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
NBA Finals: Lakers v. Magic. Game 1 June 4th
by weazel on Jun 3, 2009 5:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You lost me at "probably" :-)
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
by pslakerfan on Jun 3, 2009 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah they rip Kobe for everything
For one Losing in the Finals in a blowout on the others teams floor would be more warrented for a player like Kobe to walk away and not shake no-ones hands but Kobe did while crying, he shook the Bostons Celtics players hands and congradulated them so what Lebron did isn’t nearly alright or understandable.
by BrittneyM on Jun 3, 2009 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lebron-Kobe......Kobe-Lebron.....Meh.
Lebron is a 3 and Kobe is a 2.
They are both good.
Lebron gets to the rack better than anybody, like a 150% size Tony Parker.
Everything else Kobe does more or less better.
I’d still rather be building my team around Brandon Roy or Dwight Howard.
So there.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 3, 2009 6:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The same
Brandon Roy who got completely shut down by Shane Battier and Co. in the first round of the playoffs?
The same Dwight Howard who shoots 50% from the line and allowed Kendrick Perkins to guard him 1 on 1 for the entire Boston series?
I’ll take my chances with Lebron or Kobe, thanks.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Jun 4, 2009 6:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brilliant Post
Outstanding, Brilliant, Superb, this article is simply amazing!
by Jhaja on Jun 3, 2009 7:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wanted to say I enjoyed it Josh
I’m not sure whether Kobe’s playoffs have been better than LeBron’s or not. At the same time, to ignore Kobe to simply hype LeBron only is a pretty dumb thing.
That whole LeBron-Kobe finals I think had a ton more to do with LeBron than it did Kobe.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
by pookeyguru on Jun 3, 2009 7:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Stats alone are lies
Very well done, Josh. I have been arguing with bloggers from all over regarding the hype of LBJ’s performance over KB. But your analytical article brought out nearly all the intricacies separating these two premier players’ performance. One you didn’t mention – I have state that time and again – was Lebron’s clutch failure in Game 1. Right off I couldn’t recall the stats but he missed enough FTs and FGAs in the 4th to warrant a close win by the Magic.
Game 1 win for an underdog like Orlando really gave them the air they need to breath and the confidence they can ride to the Final. That was all it took – Lebron’s own failure – to doom the Cavs.
by majestic blue on Jun 3, 2009 8:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Exactly Well done again Josh
All the stats in the world means nothing if you can’t get wins. Let Lebron have his statistics while Kobe sits in the Finals with a great chance at bringing home a title.
by BrittneyM on Jun 3, 2009 8:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
“Nights like this remind you that we should wait for James to actually win a championship or two before we can establish his place among the game’s greats. We all love what LeBron is doing. We shouldn’t forget what Kobe has done and is still capable of. We didn’t unanimously move Michael Jordan past Magic Johnson until he got his ring collection going in the 1990s. We shouldn’t call Tiger Woods golf’s greatest until he gets past Jack Nicklaus’ 18 majors.”
J.A. Adande
by intuitive on Jun 3, 2009 11:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Bravo
Josh, your points are all well made and i can’t disagree. Go Lakers! (god i’m excited)
by KB33 on Jun 4, 2009 2:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Homer much?
It means nothing that Kobes team makes the finals and lebrons didnt
So, when lebron carried the worst finals team ever to the championship 2 seasons ago, that made him better, right?
Hes top 3 in the league, homers
by ohc on Jun 4, 2009 9:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Where does it say Lebron is not top 3?
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 4, 2009 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lebron is the best player on the planet, Kobe is top 3
by ohc on Jun 4, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reverse, then I'll agree
And my name isn’t Homer.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 4, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh hahah
That was so far-fetched that I didn’t know what you were talking about.
Yes, Lebron is top 3, Kobe is the best player in the universe.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 4, 2009 1:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i really enjoyed your usual statistical breakdown. but the last bit about lebron dominating the ball wasn’t quite on the ball. it’s true there is a double standard in that when kobe dominates the ball he’s trashed, but when lebron does, it’s praised.
however, i don’t think lebron dominated the ball and took his teammates out of the game. first, lebron typically dominates the ball. that’s the reason he can get so many points and assists. i think the difference that so many people don’t credit is that dwight howard’s presence allowed the perimeter defenders to stay on their man instead of collapsing on lebron. it also helped that varejao just sucks and zydrunas is slow as a tortoise. so essentially, i think lebron’s teammates couldn’t do what they usually do. the result ended up being lebron driving the ball and having to commit to a shot without a clear option of passing out. of course there were times that lebron was able to pass out. the point is, over the course of the series, i think dwight howard just took the cavs out of their game.
so essentially, i think coach brown just told lebron to utterly dominate the ball cause that was all that was working for them. i don’t think lebron took his teammates out of the game more so than his teammates couldn’t do anything offensively, so lebron was forced to ball hog. and i think that’s basically what happened with kobe a few years back.
by suminkim on Jun 4, 2009 4:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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