Where does Kobe REALLY rank?
by pslakerfan on Jun 2, 2009 2:41 PM PDT
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Most of us know that Kareem is the all time leading scorer in NBA history with 38,387 points. You also may know that Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain share the lead in Points per Game at 30.1. Kobe Bryant happens to be 10th on that list at 25.1 points per game, a fact that many "haters" like to point out.
However what if we apply the "tempo-free" method? (Thanks Dexter Fishmore)
OK, maybe not tempo free. How about coaching free. What do I mean? Check below the jump.
Here is a chart that shows the PPG leaders in order from left to right in blue. It also shows in red the all time leaders adjusted to Points Per 48 minutes. Notice the differences. Kobe now moves from #10 to #2 behind Michael Jordan.
Of all of the players on that list, Kobe is the only one to come off the bench for his first two seasons. He averaged 15.5 minutes per game in his rookie season and 26.0 his second season. It is also important to note he is the only player on the list to have played most of his career with Shaquille O'Neal and we all know how eager he was to give up the ball. (Interesting side note is that #3 and #4 all time in PP48 minutes are Baylor and West, who played most of their careers together, as Lakers of course. Very, very impressive)
Throw out Kobe's rookie season of 15.5 minutes per game and he jumps to 33.4 Points per 48 minutes, a solid 2nd place by himself. Anyway I am sure the haterade will soon follow, but I thought this was interesting food for discussion. If nothing else the fact that #2,#3,and #4 all time are Lakers is quite interesting.
Let me know what you think....................
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Didn't know this, thanks a lot!
Very cool statistic. Points per minute is much more meaningful in measuring scoring ability rather than points per game.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Thanks, I am just glad I got some comments.
It’s the first time I tried to do a chart of any kind and it took me a while to figure it out. I am glad I didn’t do it in vane. Nothing worse than spending an hour on something and hearing “yeah, so what”.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
lol, I know how you feel.
Recc’d as well ;)
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Well I don't think the mindful people
discredit Kobe as a good scorer. That’s pretty glaring evidence but was wondering if there are any stats that can show how good of an all around player Kobe is compared to the greats.
I expect Magic to be near the top, if not the top, of that list.
Rec’d as well.
I'll see what I can find out......
I suppose you could use Hollinger’s formula for PER, but I am not sure I agree with it anyway. F-him, maybe I will come up with my own formula. That’s what Excel is for anyway, right?
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
somehow weight:
clutch scoring / rebounds and assists by position. dunno if hollinger does that.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Basketball-reference.com has an interesting statistic although I don't know how they arrive at it..........
It is called offensive rating all time.
1. Steve Kerr
2. Reggie Miller
3. Magic
LOL
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/off_rtg_career.html
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Come on, are you kidding me?
Steve Kerr carried Jordan to the 97’ Championship. Or was it 96?
Then he carried Tim Duncan to one in 05. The man belongs up there!
/sarcasm
That stat
WAY overvalues guards, especially point guards. Look at the top 20 — nearly 2/3 are guards and 1/3 of them are point guards.
It also must not take into account defense, because Barkley, Kiki, and KJ are up near the top and non of them could guard their own shadow.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
If you're looking for a single number that can be measured, you've already gone down the wrong path...
Just think about all the different ways a player can impact a game… some easily measured, others not… and of course, some of those things that are easily measured can actually end up being harmful, at times… then tell me, with a straight face, that you can express a player’s value, impact, skill, or greatness with a single number.
I find this laughable.
Strength & Honor
16...15...14...13...12...
11...10...9...8...
7...6...5...4...
You remember back in school when you were told to "check your work"????
Well when you have a formula that measures all-time offensive “rating”, and Steve Kerr is #1, you should probably check your work. Cause you seriously F’d up. Kobe by the way is #90 on that list, LOL.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
I can express a player's value, impact, skill, and greatness with a single number
okay, I couldn’t help but laugh at myself for that but now I know where Hollinger’s quest is coming from.
How do you measure unstoppableness?
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
Pounds per square inch (PSI) I think, I will check.....
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
How do you measure "inability to post under the right commentableness".....
duh, should be under Gils.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
Where Kobe ranks
This seems legit, although points scored certainly isn’t the only thing to consider when determining the greatness of a player.
Of course not, my point was just that this is one area where Kobe haters tend to look.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
case in point: Allen Iverson
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
And to answer the question of the headline
Kobe ranks at the top.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
Actually second, wayyyyyyyyyy behind Jordan, but I can live with that.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
all-time
Having studiously watched basketball since the mid 70’s I have to say no matter what happens in these finals, Kobe is one of the top 3-4 players to have played in that time. Media hype, personality/judgement issues, whatever the reasons , he will never get the due that his play has dictated. With that being said I think 2 Lakers are still above him, that is Kareem and Magic, who I feel is the finest player I have ever seen.
Very simply, take Magic’s Lakers and put them at any other time period other than the 80’s, and he has 7-8 rings. Those teams had to contend with other Hall of Fame teams to win titles. Dr.J’s Sixers, the Celtics, Bad Boys of Detroit. Jordans finals opponents were decidedly less accomplished, including the 90 Laker team that was an over achiever, not even winning the pacific division. Showtime Lakers win at least 4 out of 6 against Chicago if they played in those 90’s finals. 60’s Celtics no chance, 00’s Lakers, Spurs again would have very little success against really any of those teams from the 80’s.Plus the Laker team of 89 was probably the best of them all, going undefeated into the finals, until B. Scott and Magic coudn’t play due to hamstring injuries.
That is what puts Magic on top for me.
Kareem has 6, yes 6 MVP trophies at a time when he was regularly triple teamed. Amazing and the only truelly unstoppable offensive force ever.
I think Kobe and Jordan are fairly equal, Jordan being a better at the rim finisher and slightly more committed defensive player versus Kobe, a better and more consistant shooter and the best end of shot clock, game clock player ever, sorry Reggie and Jerry.
Le bron has a ways to go before sharing the zip code of these guys.
This is not a comedy thread.............
however I still laughed. Thanks.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
I laughed as well...
But it does raise an interesting question. If you are so sure, please name 5 people better than Kobe. In fact, since you stated “nowhere near top 5 player of all time” please name 10 people better than Kobe.
I will return later today in order to get my daily laugh. Thank you.
You disregard Kobe’s years on the bench and note his playing with Shaq, which do affect Kobe’s career numbers, but Kobe’s career is unfinished at this point. May we take away Jordan’s last two years with the wizards and every other players’ post-prime years as well? Also each players possessions on offense and speed at which his team played? Also his competition and their defensive schemes against him? What about rule changes? Is the answer to this question yet another question?
I’ve always thought of Kobe being a top 2-3 player in history on the offensive end, but I would hate trying to come up with numbers to try and prove it. So thanks, because I probably would have overlooked your points if I did try. But personally it wouldn’t bother me that said haters are pointing out that Kobe’s “only” 10th all time in PPG, that singular statistic only half measures a player’s offensive capability anyway. Bottom line for me though, is that today’s technology allows teams to really study and prepare for a player more than ever, and there has been nobody who has absolutely shredded these defensive schemes more than Kobe has in the past decade. Only time will tell whether a guy like LeBron or Wade has the durability and the drive to match that kind of unstoppable..ness?
It's about time, I thought you would never show up.
See you Tuesday???
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
new recruits!
way to go pslakerfan
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
Used to be, under "Amazing_Happens"
The format here is so much more user-friendly, and you can even create your own content.
Also, the guidelines here make interaction much more civil than at other blogs like the LA Times. Love the Kam Bros work, though!
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
its funny how LA Times Laker blog comments is such a cesspool...
even though its more heavily moderated
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Where Does Kobe Rank
Michael Jordan is the greatest of all time, period! Now with that being said, Kobe Bryant is the closest to him. Every now and then Kobe will do something on the court and it looks just like M.J.
Jordan was the best ever...
…at taking someone off the dribble, and taking the ball to the hole. He was also one of the game’s greatest perimeter defenders ever and when looking at the entire package was probably the game’s greatest all around player of all time (to date).
Kobe is the best I’ve ever seen at making heavily contested mid-range & long-range jumpers and should also be remembered as one the game’s greatest perimeter defenders. He may not end his career remembered as the best ever but he certainly will belong in anyone’s top 10 discussions.
0 = The number of Super Bowls the Eagles have won.
Kobe vs. MJ...
Place Jordan and Bryant, each of them their primes, in an alternate universe were such a thing is possible and then surround each of them with comparable, championship level talent that stays intact for a span of say 6 years. You’d most likely see the two of them squaring off in the finals for all six of those years consecutively. Jordan being the better all around player would more than likely have won more of those championships but Kobe is good enough that his teams would have at least won a couple of them. In this scenario Jordan would have retired with 4 titles rather than 6.
0 = The number of Super Bowls the Eagles have won.
Kobe's Place . . .
As a non-Laker fan, I enjoy this discussion and for what it’s worth will provide a non-homer assessment. I will say that, at the 2 spot, it’s Kobe and Jordan and the discussion about who’s 3 should be where people start any debate. I think when we talk overall greatest players of all time, we have to look at two tiers, the guards and PFs and Cs. You really can’t compare the two because, as we’ve seen, no guard but Jordan has really shown they can spark a dynasty without a HOF PF or C. So even though it’s a fruitless list, I’d say Kobe has a hard time making it to the top 10 when you mix in the bigs.
Here’s my list with Bigs:
1) Jordan
2) Kareem
3) Magic
4) Chamberlain
5) Russell
6) Bird
7) Olajuwon
8) Shaq
9) Oscar
10) Duncan
Hard to make the case that Kobe earns a spot over any guy in that top 10 based on their overall game and effect on the teams they played on, but Jordan’s game is the only one that even remotely resembles Kobe’s, so he’s Kobe’s measuring stick.
I’ll say that if you look at numbers and eras, as an overall basketball player, Jordan beats Kobe in every way except beyond 18 feet. Jordan was a better defender, rebounder, passer and scorer inside 18. And as a scorer, we have the issue of the hand-check and Kobe didn’t face the same level of parameter defense that Jordan did.
Kobe is a great player and has the opportunity to unseat some of the bigs and Oscar, but he needs a few more seasons to get into the top 10. This is just one man’s opinion.
That is fine
No real point in arguing until Kobe’s career is done. I mean he’s not even finished and some consider him top 10 already!
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Jun 15, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I would put him ahead of Bird and Shaq.
Maybe Duncan as well. Why is Duncan on this list if he has played less than Kobe? Actually, yes Duncan too. So I guess my list goes.
Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Chamberlain
Olajuwon
Oscar
Kobe
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
However I agree that there is no point arguing until Kobe’s career is done. I personally think that is crap, but no point arguing it.
Well, sir, you are a cowardly son of a bitch! You just shot an unarmed man!.......Well, he should have armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend. – Will Munny
All-time lists
I agree that until a career is truelly over, a career cannot be truelly evaluated, but some players achievements are so pronounced that they already fit at times. Kobe and Duncan are two such players. I cannot speak for players that I never saw, because highlight films do not show, there help defense, blocking out, passing, clutch shooting, little game saving moments that are required to really know greatness. But my top 10 since I’ve been watching starting in the mid 70’s in no real order ( I mean can you pick the 10 best meals you ever had and rank them?)
Magic
Kareem
MJ
The Doctor
Hakeem
Kobe
Duncan
Bird
Shaq
Isiah (I guess Zeke since I need a normal point guard)
Now my dream team would be different
Kareem-c
Hakeem-pf
Magic-pg
MJ-sg
Rodman-sf
Kobe-6th man
Duncan,Mchale,Walton frontcourt depth
Bird, R. Miller -closers
M. Cooper -def stopper
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