Ron Artest... Ejected Again?
by Josh Tucker on May 9, 2009 1:00 AM PDT
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PrintThere's been a big to-do about the drama in Game 2 of the Lakers-Rockets second round series, resulting in Ron Artest's ejection from the game. For the record, I think Artest has only himself to blame for that ejection, because everyone in the building knew that if he kept going at it after the first technical, he would be ejected — especially considering all that had already transpired. He did, and he was.
In Game 3, he was ejected again — his second ejection in as many games — this time for a play on the ball that was deemed a Flagrant II foul. I couldn't disagree more.
Interestingly, the outrage over the play that led to Artest's Game 2 ejection seems to have been confined to the fans. Players on both sides saw it as a non-issue, refusing to label each other dirty, and instead saying that it was just good, hard playoff basketball, and par for the course. J.A. Adande highlighted this fact well in a column yesterday, which I highly recommend you read.
Perhaps we should all take a cue from our teams, and adopt their attitude towards the game. Rather than throwing a hissy fit over this or that play, consider that if the players themselves don't see anything particularly wrong with it, it's probably not worth getting upset over.
All of that leads us to tonight. It's the end of the fourth quarter, and the game is already essentially decided. But Ron Artest is making desperation heaves, and the Lakers aren't foolish enough to pretend the final 47 seconds on the clock will play out uneventfully. Pau Gasol received the inbounds pass and runs the court like a point guard, going straight to the hoop. Ron Artest meets him there, collides with him, and Pau Gasol takes a hard fall.
The referees reviewed the play and called a Flagrant II foul on Ron Artest, resulting in automatic ejection and the possibility of suspension.
Now, I'm a big fan of tough, hard basketball. I don't like all the sissy rules we have now (yeah, I said it). I hate when players or fans complain about the hard fouls. As we say here at SS&R, grow a pair of 80s.
Let me be the first to say that ... It was not a Flagrant foul. It certainly was not a Flagrant II. It did not warrant ejection, and it sure as hell should not result in any suspension.
Over the course of the year, the Lakers have been on the delivering end of a few hard fouls, some of which didn't end well for the recipient of the foul. Some complained about Bynum's hard foul on LeBron James. Many complained about Bynum's hard foul on Gerald Wallace, which resulted in injury for Wallace. Even more complained (read: screamed bloody murder) about Trevor Ariza's block attempt on Rudy Fernandez, resulting in a hard landing and injury for Fernandez. In all of these circumstances, I felt like the foul was just part of basketball, with unfortunate results.
My mantra has been that you cannot judge the result; you must judge the play that led to that result. All of these plays were of the sort that happen on a near-daily basis in the NBA.
Throughout, those who were convinced that I was nothing more than a Lakers fan, seeing the world through Purple and Gold glasses, insisted vehemently that I would be singing a very different tune if the player on the receiving end of the foul were Kobe or Gasol, or any other Laker, for that matter.
So let me be the first to say that I completely disagree with the referees on this call. It was not a Flagrant foul. It certainly was not a Flagrant II. It did not warrant ejection, and it sure as hell should not result in any suspension.
Kobe Bryant, quoted in the AP report, put it best: "I don't think that was a flagrant, maybe a flagrant one," Bryant said of Artest's ejection. "That rule is so all over the place, it's hard to judge. I'm an '80s baby, so that's just two shots and let's go."
We agree.
Artest was going for the block. He collided with Gasol — as happens all the time in the NBA. Gasol took a hard foul, but that happens. I'm glad he wasn't injured, but even if he was, the play that led to his fall warranted two things: A first free throw, and a second. Nothing more.
Though it will provide little consolation for Rockets fans, I hope the league will correct this mistake in review, revoking the Flagrant II foul entirely (not downgrading it; revoking it). And if by some insane absurdity they decide to suspend Artest for a game, I'll be joining Rockets fans in anger.
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What I don't understand is..
Is the only difference between this and Ariza’s foul on Fernandez that Fernandez got injured, while Pau did not? As you said, you only look at the intent, not the outcome and the two fould look pretty much the same to me, meaning if it’s a flagrant II on the first, then it’s a flagrant II on the second.
The way I see it...
The Ariza foul wasn’t that bad. This is me being consistent.
Then again, I also think this wasn’t as bad as the Ariza foul (or the Wade foul). Pau saw him coming, for one, and challenged him in the air. It was a play on the ball, it was a run of the mill collision, and it really just wasn’t as bad as the landing made it look. The same can be said of the Ariza foul, except for the accidental blow to the head, which had to hurt. Still, the fall wasn’t caused by that, it was caused by the swipe at the hands.
I can see where you’re coming from, but to me, I guess it’s a matter of degree. Looking at the replay, I just don’t think it was that bad. Honestly don’t. To me, they are similar in nature, but Artest’s was a bit less extreme.
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Strength & Honor
Normally, that should just be a foul, but given the situation and context of the game and series
A flagrant one would have been appropriate. But I wouldn’t have minded if it was just a regular foul.
Part of this is an issue with Artest: he doesn’t think “This might look bad, I shouldn’t foul him very hard, the game is almost over, so it’s not worth it”. He ignores that, and while that is pure, it’s also not how the world works. The refs didn’t want things to get out of control, and for the situation, a flagrant one would have sent the same message, so that the Lakers didn’t potentially feel disrespected. But I doubt the Lakers would have cared, just some Lakers fans who would cry “where’s the consistency?”.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
The Lakers obviously were unphased by it
But when are they ever? Sure, fans will be fans, but if we take our cues from the players… I mean, even when Kobe was thrown to the ground by the throat, by Raja Bell, what happened? No brawl. No bench clearing. And Kobe didn’t get up and get in his face. He got up, smiled, shook his head, dusted off his shoulders, and then resolved to go back at the Suns with the basketball, on the court.
Anyhow, I think what you’re saying about Ron not thinking about the context is that the play probably didn’t warrant a flagrant, but if he did get a Flagrant I, you’d just kinda say, “You know, probably a little excessive, but jeez Ron, it’s kinda your own fault… you gotta think this through…” And that would be reasonable.
But as for the play itself, I don’t think it was anything more than a 2-shot foul.
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No Flagrant.
Yeah Artest jumped into Pau…but there’s no flagrant there. It looks worse than it is because its a big man trying to make a running play at the rim with a big, strong small forward trying to make a defensive play as well. The ejection was uncalled for, especially because the game was not over the top emotional or anything of that level.
Laker fans, say what you really think
Don’t retaliate.
If you’re all for hard fouls, and have been saying as much in the last couple of games against Houston, then you better stay true to that here. This is a chance for us to take the high road.
Don’t go to The Dream Shake and call the Rockets fans “whiny bitches.” Don’t blame them for being upset about this. And don’t vote to uphold the Flagrant II (let alone to suspend him) if you defended Kobe for his elbows in Game 2.
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A suspension would just be ridiculous
And then I might start believing those conspiracy theorists
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
If they end up suspending him, we should flood Stu Jackson's inbox
and that Blackberry he uses.
There is no reason for Ron Artest to be suspended. No reason for them to even make up a reason.
ALSO: A Request
Folks, I’m sure The Dream Shake gets its fair share of Laker fan trolls over there. Right now, I bet you there are at least one or two Laker fans over there arguing that Ron Ron should be suspended, taunting them for the second ejection, etc.
I do hope that none of our regular members are doing that. And for those of you that agree with what I’ve written here, I’d like to ask you a favor: Head on over to The Dream Shake, and just stop by to let them know you’re with them on this one. Maybe even argue with a Laker troll.
It would represent us well, and show us capable of taking the high ground. And I’m sure some of them would appreciate the gesture.
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It's probably going to end up being a flagrant one.
People have gotten flagrant ones for much less. Anyways, it doesn’t matter, though. Do any of you guys know the rule on getting suspended following flagrant fouls for the playoffs? I know that there’s like a four point system and if you get to four you get suspended one game (1 point for flagrant type 1, 2 for type 2). How many does Ron have right now?
We at the DS
realize that you guys are great sports here at the SS&R. We’ve sorted out the trolls from the real Laker fans, not to worry. The Lakers beat us fair and square last night, and I’d like to thank you guys for being good sports.
"Hip-Thrust!" - Hard Gay
In case you're wondering, Hard Gay is married.
i think it's a non-issue
The game was no longer in doubt… there were 43 seconds on the clock. There’s no way Artest is suspended for this. It only looked bad because Pau Gasol is a 7-foot guy and he had a long way to fall. If one or two Lakers fans try to suggest otherwise, they have every right. They also have the right to be wrong.
My name isn't really Iggy.
As a Laker fan I’d want this foul to be fully rescinded. Haters will only point to this as further evidence of whatever kind of bias the league has for us, and the logical fans will only agree that Ron Ron’s foul did not at all warrant an ejection. Referees claim to call the next foul no differently than the last one, but honestly, how many of you think that before the game, the refs made sure to call end-of-the-game fouls on Artest differently because of what happened before (iirc Artest’s foul on Ben Wallace also came at the end of a pretty much decided game)? And now, LA and its fans have to try and defend this crap, while the real culprits (the refs) get away? Ridiculous.
PS: while I haven’t seen the replay, it seemed like Battier undercutting Gasol had almost as much to do with Gasol’s fall than Artest did. If every foul is called the same, why is it that Battier gets away with nothing while Artest gets ejected? He was the hottest guy on the field! And don’t give me the ‘game was no longer in doubt’ excuse, either. We weren’t even up by that much, we were missing our free throws, and Artest was hitting pretty much everything. Let the players play, and let us earn a legitimate win without giving the mob a bone to chew.
PPS: Kobe should not have gotten a flagrant foul for elbowing Artest in his CHEST. And even then, Artest had been fouling him even before the play. And I do agree with Artest being thrown out in game 2, I think Artest running up into Kobe’s face was completely uncalled for.
Should not have been a foul...
I’ll keep things short. I’ll probably make a fan post tomorrow with a bit more description, but bottom line: this was one of the best Laker games I’ve seen all year.
My biggest issue
is with the blatant referee bias…how much do you want to bet if it was Von Wafer or Shane Battier giving Pau the hard foul rather than Ron Artest, they wouldn’t have been ejected. When you start ejecting dudes (same goes for Game 2’s ejection in my opinion…) based on their past antics it makes the league look bad.
Agreed
It’s like when Artest got a technical for rushing in to break up a fight. Okay, I can understand having a momentary sense of dread as you see Artest running in, but after that has passed, use your eyes! If he didn’t actually do anything, why punish him just because you were scared he would??
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Had Gasol been injured
we all probably would be singing a different tune. Ultimately these fouls are aimed at protecting the player, and Gasol certainly could have slammed his head on the floor, potentially leading to severe head trauma and loss of playing time, or worst , loss of life. Artest delivered that foul with some intent other than to stop the clock. A hard foul we call it. Really, these fouls add nothing to the game of basketball other than a trigger for the release of adrenaline. I for one would rather not see this unnecessary chest pounding display-I have football for that. Artest should be levied a flagrant 2 foul and suspended for a game. Let’s get on with playing some basketball now.
by Jello Is Jiggling on May 9, 2009 7:42 AM PDT reply actions
Nope
If Gasol had been injured, I would be saying it’s unfortunate, but that the foul itself doesn’t warrant ejection or suspensions. Period.
You can’t judge a play by its result. Otherwise, freak injuries that happen on typically harmless plays would be suspensions and ejections. Guys like Bruce Bowen put a foot under a guy coming down, and he gets lucky and doesn’t get injured. But a couple guys just trying to play basketball get tangled up under the hoop and one accidentally steps on the other’s foot, and gets a severely sprained ankle. Which one is worse? The one that never intended any hard at all, and wasn’t even trying to undercut him, led to the worse result. But you have to judge the play … meaning if the league sees Bruse Bowen do that, they should suspend him, even if no injury came of it. But the guy who accidentally caused injury just as a result of being close and playing hard should get nothing.
You can’t judge a play based on injury.
Also, if you want to start calling every foul that results in a guy taking a hard fall, and every foul that has the potential for injury, as a Flagrant II with a suspension, this game is going to become nothing but whistles and suspension. It won’t be any fun anymore. Jeez, it’s bad enough as it is.
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I agree.
It was just a hard foul. A hard foul to prevent Pau for dunking in a decided game.
I think the refs called it a Flagrant 2, as a message going into the nest game. That call let both team know that are not going to tolerate anymore blatant hard fouls, nor let tempers escalate.
I hate that they made a “controversy” out of a game we dominated.
The Lakers are now 6-1 against the Rockets this season.
I agree. I don't
blame Artest for wanting to stop Pau from dunking in a game that was over, for all intensive purposes.
by BruinFanBaby on May 9, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions
FLAGRANT??
I believe that it was a flagrant foul, because he did not make a play for the ball. i believe that Shane Battier grabbed PAU by the waist and contributed to making the foul by Artest look even worse. Luckily PAU was not injured in the play, and I think that there was no intention by Artest or Battier to injure, but just to deliver a hard foul and stop the basket.
no way is it a flagrant 2, I believe that the NBA will reduce it to flagrant 1
In no way
did this deserve to be a flagrant of any kind. Artest made a hard play on the ball, and that was it. This whole flagrant foul thing has been ridiculous during these entire playoffs. Rondo threw Hinrich on the scorers table and didn’t get ejected, the referees completely missed the Howard elbow during the game, and if he had been assessed the Flagrant 2 during the game, he most likely wouldn’t have received a suspension for Game 6. Like PJ said, the flagrant calls are incredibly inconsistent.
I think that it should be a Flagrant one because
Artest didn’t go for the ball he went for Gasol straight though not intending injury. He definitely should not be suspended.
5 wins down.... 11 more to go
This many votes for options 1, 3 and 4? Puh-leeze. Not even a flagrant foul. As Silver said, it’s amazing that this happens in a site where just about every fan was saying Fisher was simply “making a statement” with his cheap shot at Scola.
It’s so annoying that interesting, hard-fought series like this one always turn into one big discussion about the refs. Happens every time.
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Take it easy...
If you notice, 82% of us do NOT want Artest suspended for Game 4. 77% of us don’t think it should have been a Flagrant II, and therefore don’t think he should have been tossed.
I’ve made my opinion known that I don’t think it was worthy of a flagrant — however, that said, given the context of the game and the series, I don’t think you really have a leg to stand on when it comes to Flagrant I. It’s a judgment call, and as good a case could be made for a Flagrant I as could be made against it. So your criticism towards 77% of us is unfounded.
There will be biased fans and trolls in any fan base, and you’ll notice that though some voted for options 3 and 4, very few of the most engaged readers (i.e., those commenting) voted that way. Almost all of them agree with me that no flagrant was warranted.
Any fan base has biased fans and trolls. Personally, I’m quite pleased to see that only 23% wanted him tossed, and only 18% want him suspended. Considering that fans usually side with whatever favors their team, I’d say 77% of fans refusing to “play partisan politics sports” is extremely impressive. Can TDS fans boast the same numbers? Based on the response to Kobe’s elbows, I’d be surprised.
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“Take it easy”? Okay…
I’m focusing on the fact that more than half of the voters (well, percentages might’ve changed in the 2 hours since I made my initial comment) through that was a flagrant foul, where I thought it wasn’t even close. He was obviously going for the ball, with his arms extended, and Pau probably fell because of the other players near him. You say that it’s a judgment call and that as good a case could’ve been made for a flagrant I – but I disagree. (And I believe the poll is heavily influenced by your writing, by the way.)
So if it helps, I’m only criticizing 52% of you, and certainly not you personally, or Gis (even though I don’t know what he thinks about it, I imagine he’d agree), or wondahbap.
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In ordinary context, you'd be right
But in the context of this game, this series, and the fact that only 43 seconds remained, I’m not saying a Flagrant I is the right call, I’m saying it’s arguable. And as such, you can’t really blame someone for taking the other side of something that could arguably go either direction. Well, you can, but you’d have no leg to stand on.
And how would my writing effect this? If anything, the effect of my writing should be to convince people to vote less harshly on that play… since that is exactly what I advocated.
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That’s what I meant, Silver. That the results of the poll were positive and indicative of very little trolling because that’s what you advocate. The rules of the blog are very clear, and it makes for a very nice site visited by fair-minded folks. How many fans would vote mindlessly after reading your post? Obviously, not so many. It’s a great blog, and I’m thinking of commenting regularly from now on.
I can’t even compliment you properly, it seems. I need to work on my English…
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Ah, well...
Then I thank you for that. I’ve enjoyed your contributions to the discussion here, and you’re welcome any time.
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No problem. Sorry if I came across as too acerbic in my initial post. It’s not easy to root for the losing teams in just about every playoff series. :)
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Artest foul
Most Laker fans are just saying it was no big deal because Pau did not get hurt and the game was won. If Pau gets injured, most people would want heads to roll. Artest did not make much of a play on the ball. He lead the play with his left forearm into the chest which you just can’t do on an airborn player anymore. I too am an 80’s baby and watched the Pistons try to klll Jordan every time he came into the paint. The way the game is officiated nowadays, the play should have been a flagrant foul. How it turned into a F-2, I don’t understand. No way that play leads to suspension – if it does I will be disgusted and expect all the Laker conspiracy posts to flood the internet.
SS&R, I liked the frame-by-frame breakdown of the Kobe-Artest tangle in game 2. Those were good angles and showed the play as it developed not how it finished.
Thanks, but I disagree a bit
Regardless of whether Gasol got hurt or not, I’d be here saying Flagrant I at the max, more likely just 2 fouls and go. And I think a lot of others would see it the same way. Why? Because we’ve been saying that for a long time. People just don’t notice, because the only things that get attention are the controversial ones where the Lakers are to blame. Those are the ones people freak out about, and so you hear us saying, “Whoa, whoa, hold the phone.” What you don’t hear are the ones where Trevor Ariza gets knocked out of the air in almost an identical manner to what he did to Rudy Gonzalez, and we just never make a stink in the first place. I saw that happen to him specifically at least three times this year — and at least one of those was after everyone made a big stink about him fouling Rudy. Trevor is a wiry guy, a high flier, and at least 3 times this year, I’ve seen him get hard on a breakaway dunk attempt, come down all twisted and contorted. You know what our reaction is? “Oh shit! … Phew, alright, he’s okay.” And that’s it.
The fact is, we’ve generally been pretty consistent on it. People just think we’re homers because they only see our reactions when the rest of the league, that likes to villify the Lakers, freaks out because it was us committing the foul. If you saw how we react on all the other plays that other teams freak out about on a regular basis, you’d understand that this is normal for us.
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consistent calls
I’m gonna chime in here and ask for some consistency from the refs… While Fish intentionally drove through the pick on Scola, (leveling him, though he’s a reknowned flopper)receiving a Flagrant II and further suspension, Rondo bloodies Miller’s lip with his forearm in one game and tosses Heinrich (sp?) into the scorer’s table in the next (while throwing an elbow that didn’t connect) and received no Flagrant or suspension on further review. So, Artest met Pau in the air with his forearm, making no real play on the ball (he’s just not tall enough) and got called for a Flagrant II. I understand the Flagrant 1, it’s what Ariza deserved for Fernandez, but not the 2, though neither do I understand the 2 for Fish or the no-calls for Rondo. I’m just hoping the refs can give us 1 criterion for judging what is deserving of a Flagrant II in this series from now on. Perhaps, as SS&R says, this was a preemptive call to reign in Artest for game 4, but I really just want the Flagrant II calls to reflect what is really deserving of an automatic ejection; e.g. Kendrick Perkins pulling Varejao to the ground out of the air by both shoulders (late in the season), Rondo tossing an opposing guard into the scorer’s table (the playoffs), etc. you know, “not a natural basketball movement.”
though he’s a reknowned flopper
It’s great when people try to ameliorate Fisher’s foul with offhand comments like that one.
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of course I didn’t spell-check it, as it should be renowned… he attempts to “sell” every blocking foul as a charge, which every play-by-play announcer will tell you is the most difficult in-game fouls to judge for the officials. If he gives the official a bit more reason to side with him on most calls, we call this shrewd.
Timbo: as to the “pick” issue, I just didn’t make myself clear, you are right that Scola was trying to set the pick and Fish did intentionally drive in with his body, though not pointing his elbow or his noggin at Scola, while fighting through it. Yes, it was “tit-for-tat”, there’s no question. As an example, I’ll use Doc Rivers’ words to the official in the last Celtics/Magic game (roughly paraphrasing), “if you had called the foul earlier, this one wouldn’t have happened.”
There was no pick. It was a targeted check on Scola, who was COMING TO SET a pick.
Fish sized him up and flattened him. It was a premeditated hit, carry over from previous plays when Scola was apparently using elbows and just caused a 2-for-1 (Houston advantage) exchange of technicals with Lamar and Luke.
Fish played the roll of enforcer. He did the crime and did the time…
While Fish intentionally drove through the pick on Scola, (leveling him, though he’s a reknowned flopper)receiving a Flagrant II and further suspension…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
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