Ron Artest, Kobe Bryant, and Wayward Elbows
by Josh Tucker on May 7, 2009 8:00 AM PDT
in Editorial
197 comments
We know how this is going to go: "Elbow-gate 3.0"
As a human being living on this planet, you know the story by now. It's the fourth quarter of Game 2 between the Rockets and Lakers, and the Lakers have a 10-point lead. Kobe Bryant and Ron Artest are vying for position under the basket, anticipating a rebound off a Houston miss.
That's when Kobe elbows Ron Ron in the throat, who first complains demonstratively to the referee, and then makes a beeline for Kobe Bryant. He gets in Bryant's face, who refuses to engage Artest, and Ron receives a technical foul. He keeps going, gets a second, and is tossed from the game.
Bryant elbowed Artest in the throat, and as a result, Artest was ejected. Because of the nature of the original play, Kobe deserves a suspension. Right?
Not so fast.
That's how Ron Artest tells the story, and from the limited footage we have, our minds use his account to fill in the gaps, and we believe that that is what happened. But when we watch the replay, do we really see what's actually happening? Let's have another look.
What Everyone Is Talking About
Let's start with the Kobe Bryant elbow that we're all talking about. The following photo is a still shot of the exact frame where that blow began (the left and right images are the exact same shot; one just has a little something extra):
Notice anything? Okay, so it should be pretty obvious, what with the green arrow and all. The green arrow traces the angle of Kobe's arm, and what you should notice is that at the moment Kobe's el-blow began, it was aimed directly at Ron Artest's... chest. Interesting, no? But wait, we're not done.
As Kobe connected with the elbow, the blow created some separation between his torso and Artest's. In that space, we can see Kobe's arm. These next two images are ever-so-slightly different from each other. They are a frame apart, simply so that we have a better view of where Kobe's arm actually is.
The blue arrows, as you can see for yourself, point to Kobe's arm.
The meaning of this should be pretty obvious. At the start of the blow, Kobe's elbow was pointed at Ron Ron's chest. At the moment of contact, Kobe's elbow was at Ron Ron's chest. The conclusion would seem clear: Kobe did not elbow Ron Artest in the throat, as claimed. He elbowed him in the chest.
Now, admittedly, this is not the greatest camera angle. It's possible that the league has additional footage, and that a better angle shows different results. But until we see that footage, a detailed, frame-by-frame observation of the footage we have does not support Artest's claim that Bryant elbowed him in the throat.
What No One is Talking About
What's of particular interest to me, which no one is saying much about, is what transpired prior to, and at the same time as, Kobe's elbow to Ron Artest's chest. Observe:
See where the blue arrow is pointing now? That's Artest's arm, planted on Bryant's neck. From here, he's going to shove Kobe with both the arm and the lower body, pushing him toward the basket by the neck and head.
That's Ron Ron's hand on Kobe's neck and head, and he's got Kobe nearly bent in half. Last time I checked, this was not allowed.
Now Artest has his hand on Kobe's neck and head, and his entire forearm on top of his shoulders, and he's leaning his weight onto Kobe — who is struggling to stay vertical. Thanks to a camera flash, the next shot makes this particularly clear.
No nifty blue arrows necessary, right? Let's skip ahead, just a few frames.
Kobe regains his balance a bit, tries to straighten up, but Ron still has his arm on Kobe's neck, trying to shove him downwards. Notice that Ron's body is turning towards the basket. A couple more frames ahead, we have this:
It's hard to see, because of the resolution of the video in this particular frame, but the brown blur that the blue arrow above is pointing to is Artest's hand and forearm. Notice how Kobe's head has snapped back? That's because as Artest turned left, he brought his arm around (remember, it was still on top of Kobe's shoulder), and either the elbow or the upper arm connected with Kobe's head.
Here's our last shot:
The blue arrow is pointing to Artest's forearm, still resting atop Kobe's shoulder. It is bent at a right angle with his upper arm, possibly meaning that when he hit Kobe, it was with a bent elbow. Notice that Kobe's head is now fully snapped back, presumably from the force of the blow.
Kind of changes things, doesn't it? During this entire possession, Ron Artest has been making illegal physical contact with Kobe's head, and using his arms in ways that are not allowed. Is Kobe's elbow to Ron's chest any worse than Ron's hand and forearm on the neck and head — let alone his own blow to Kobe's head? And considering Artest's position throughout this possession — that is, on top of Kobe — is it any surprise that he was called for the foul?
Is Kobe blameless? No. He threw an elbow at Artest. But given the circumstances, and the way Artest was illegally manhandling Kobe with his hands and arms, I have a hard time seeing how that is worse than a shove from one big man to another after getting tangled up underneath the hoop.
And while both players took a blow from the other (Kobe arguably took quite a bit more physical abuse from Ron Ron than he doled out), when the play was over it was Artest who lost his head, while Bryant kept his cool. Artest would have done well to simply walk away — after the way he manhandled Kobe by the neck and head with his hands and arms, I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for him. In fact, it's downright hypocritical of him to pitch such a hissy fit, after what he had been doing to Kobe just moments earlier.
Add to that the fact that off-handed clearouts and forearm shoves in the back, largely uncalled, are an almost constant part of his game, and I really don't see where Artest gets off, suddenly getting upset at something like this.
As for Kobe, it's hard to say what will happen. If the league has footage from the other side of the entanglement that clearly shows Kobe's elbow connecting with Artest's throat or head, then he should be suspended one game. But if no such footage exists, then they need to go with the best interpretation of the limited footage they have, which seems to show Kobe elbowing Artest in the chest. Without contact above the shoulders, no suspension would be warranted, and the league would likely assess a flagrant foul and fine Kobe for the elbow to the body.
UPDATE: Over at TrueHoop, Henry Abbott has additional footage, from the other side of the play. And guess what? It essentially reinforces what I've shown here. Take a look:
Sure enough, Kobe appears to elbow Ron in the chest. There is no indication that the elbow hit Ron in the face. Now, the question we should have been asking all along: Is anyone really surprised that Artest got hit in the chest, and tried to convince the referees that he got hit in the throat? Not because he's Crazy Ron — just because that is what NBA players do. If they think the refs saw something, but didn't have a good angle on it, they'll act as though it was worse than it actually was, hoping to draw a harsher call on their opponent. That is what Artest did here.
Henry sees Artest's head snap back, and wonders if Kobe also got a piece of his face. Is it possible that after the fact, there may have been incidental contact to the face? The video doesn't show it at all, but again, it's not the most definitive video, so I can't say it isn't possible.
But what seems more likely to me is that Artest looked straight up just before Kobe's elbow connected with his chest — of his own will, and completely unrelated to the elbow. Why would he do that? The shot had just bounced off the rim, and both he and Bryant were tracking the ball and fighting for the rebound.
In any case, it's clear that the elbow connected with Ron's chest. Any contact of Kobe's arm to Ron's head is incidental, and certainly no worse than the arm and/or elbow Ron delievered to Kobe's head at around the same time.
The two suffered essentially the same treatment from each other — and it's not the first time they've done this to each other, either — but it was Artest's decision to charge at Kobe, and it was his decision not to stop when the refs pulled him off. That is what got him ejected from the game.
From the video we have, the only reasonable conclusion we can come to is that Kobe threw an elbow to Artest's chest, and there was all sorts of other very physical contact, from both players, on the play. And given the circumstances, I don't see much difference between Kobe's elbow to the body of Artest, who is hanging all over him, and a shove in the back from one center to another, who also feels there has been too much contact under the hoop. Neither are suspension-worthy offenses, but both are likely to result in fines. That is what should happen here.
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Good stuff, Silver
You have it laid out like the Zapruder film. Next they’ll be saying the unknown laker in the grassy knoll elbowed Artest in the throat.
Awesome
Next we need to find the girl who took the photo on the opposite angle, so we can see plainly where the elbow landed.
Great work, Josh
by Gils_Keloids on May 7, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
the snap shots
are more misleading than the actual video
Great players dont win championships.....Great TEAMS win chapionships
Kobe does
have a history for throwing elbows at people faces….Artest, and Bell, and don’t forget about all of the bloody noses he’s caused, or what about the knee to Shaine? Kobe likes to hurt people, end of story..
by shadowchicken on May 12, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd be curious to see similar treatment of the Fisher foul
Great stuff here, as I also thought there was a lot of undue outrage over Kobe throwing an elbow which looked to me like it hit Artest in the chest after Artest had fouled Kobe repeatedly to get position under the basket.
I’d also like to see the Fisher foul on Scola broken down like this, because that’s widely being called an elbow to the head, when it looked to me like it was a shoulder to the chest. His arm came out at the end, but that looked to be more from him trying to keep his balance than anything. I do think Fish absolutely loaded up on Scola and tried to send a message by flattening him the way he did, and I can understand the ejection as a result (though if that play had happened without the previous three techs then it probably would have just been a foul or a flagrant one); but in keeping with the NBA rules Fish should not be suspended since throwing a shoulder into a guy’s chest is not a suspendable action.
If Ron doesn't lose it and go viglilante, it would have never been noticed, never mind an issue to discuss.
Artest only got in Kobe’s face because the foul was called on him. If a foul was called on Kobe, Artest hits his FT’s and the game resumes.
I can’t believe this is even an issue.
Of course, Stu Jackson makes me nervous, because he’s the ultimate moron in the NBA offices. We’ve seen him go after Kobe before.
Good stuff, Josh.
To me, it was just good hard playoff basketball by both Kobe and Crazy Ron.
The Ts came when Mr. Skull Carvings went boffo, racing over and screaming at the officials and then charging all the way across the court to pick a fight with Kobe.
That wasn’t “complaining” — it was the out of control actions of a guy with a track record of physical violence in the NBA.
Crazy Ron needed a “time out” and he got one. Well deserved.
Now the Fisher play — THAT was a Flagrant 2 that merits a suspension. But that was good, good stuff — money well spent.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Milled Animal
Well worth it..
With Ron’s actions now maybe the Refs will start doing something about the constant cheap shots he takes. Had he just shutup and took it like Shane did in game one when Kobe put his knee in the side of his head and elbow in the back of his head when ‘trying’ to get up, no attention would have been given to it, just like that one.
How exactly was he ‘out of control’? Because he complained to a Ref and got in somebody’s face? If that were out of control and ejection worthy, the Lakers wouldn’t have anyone left to put in the game lastnight!
Also, Fisher has been horrible. The Lakers losing him for a game helps the Lakers more than the Rockets.
I hope that..
when the NBA reviews this that they are diligent enough to take the time to look at what transpired before the play and not just from Kobe’s elbow going forward. These pictures tell the whole story. I think that many people who look at this especially non Laker fans are missing the point. Does Kobe deserve a techincal and a flagarant? YES! but at the same time Artest’s effort to paint himself as a martyr in the whole situation is ridiculous. He is receiving what he is dishing out.
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on May 7, 2009 8:42 AM PDT reply actions
OFF Topic
But I have officially lost ANY faith or love for baseball.
Manny Ramirez will be suspended for 50 games for performance enhancing drugs.
This is the final straw.
I am with you bro
I used to love baseball…….not anymore.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
Lakers and Houston tied 1-1
I feel you
Being a Cardinal fan, I still have Albert Pujols to hang my hat on. But, if he got popped one of these days, would I be shocked? Hell, no.
Just last night
I said to myself;
a) I really hope everyone can stay healthy because the Dodgers are rolling like never before right now
b) I can’t imagine where we would be if we didn’t resign Manny. He makes such a huge difference, especially with protecting O-Dog, who is having a career year so far
Then, less than 12 hours later, this. Both thoughts, absolutely destroyed.
Your Laker colored Views of this
Yes i am biased, but i also know how a human body works. If Artest was pushing on Kobe’s neck and head, kobe’s neck and head would have been moving down. But thats not the case in these photos you provided. If you look, you will see that kobe is bending at the waist, not the neck, not the head. Artest arm is on kobe’s shoulders, not his neck. Kobe’s head angle does not change at all in the first 4 frames of the sequence.
Put down your glasses and look at what really happened. Artest was battling for position, playing physical basketball. Kobe threw an elbow, playing dirty basketball. Because yall dont know how to play physical basketball, you think dirty is physical. Its okay, learning takes time.
ps. sorry about manny. thats bad for the sport and the dodgers. I loved manny, but now i dont.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
Biased or not...
…either way you describe it it still only your point of view or interpretation. Putting all the CSI commentary about how the body moves the point of this post is that Artest was being physical so Kobe retaliated. The issue that I have with artest is that during his interview he is reacting as if he has no idea why Kobe elbowed him. This post is proving the point that Artest has no reason to question Kobe’s elbow.
As far as the learning takes time part I think that the team with the least playoff experience here is really the one learning.
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on May 7, 2009 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Ahh the good ole playoff experience putdown
GOOD ONE!! Problem is nobody in Houston cares about that. The Rockets are a team built for the playoffs with a good big man, and a great physical defense. Yeah this team doesnt have much experience, but they also dont have T-Mac which is basically like going to the finals in terms of weight off a teams back. People wouldnt be talking about these plays if they werent dirty. Remember how the playoffs are physical and everything? Due to that, physical plays arent talked about, dirty ones are.
KOBE THREW AN ELBOW ABOVE THE SHOUDLERS. Its that simple. Doesnt matter if it was retaliation or not. He threw it. It connected. ITS ILLEGAL. You say artest has no reason to question kobe’s elbow, but in reality throwing bows is always questionable. You dont play basketball by throwing elbows. Sorry.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
If you watch the replay that has been posted before, you will see that the flash in this picture from the fan in the stands matches up with the flash during the elbowing. You will also see that Kobe’s arm which threw the elbow is significantly lower than Artest’s shoulder. So I think the simple thing is that Kobe did not throw an illegal elbow. Just because Artest complains about it being to the throat doesn’t mean that it actually happened like that.
No you are still wrong sorry
Looking at the photos, it shows kobe coming up from being pushed down by artest and Artest’s arm not moving. When kobe comes up, artests arm moves from kobe’s shoulders to his neck. Artest’s arm movements coincide with kobe’s body movement. That is simple physics.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4149018
The highlight is when a person who has seen the video from the other side says that Kobe clearly lander the elbow above the R of Rockets. Unless his jersey is on his face, I think that is the chest.
Thats really good evidence...
A “person” who saw the video from the other side that NO ONE ELSE HAS SEEN. Ron is a man, we all know that. Ron is also a smart basketball player. Why would he sacrifice a rebound and his game play if he wasnt elbowed in the neck. Ron even said he thought he was going to get a tech by confronting kobe. Why in the world would Ron give up a T for something that didnt really happen.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
well im glad he has seen a replay
that they arent showing the public. sounds a little fishy to me.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Man
Just quit it.
You’re dude flopped trying to get a call on Bryant.
How are you gonna start acting like you got hit on the neck when you know you weren’t?
And please TexasHoosier, please don’t say this isn’t true nor should you argue about the “elbow to the chest” because the replays (Front and black) clearly shows there was no contact to the neck whatsoever.
Thanks.
by Three2ThreeLakerFan on May 7, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
knock it off...
with your high and mighty crap. listen if you stand in front of me and i put my forearm on the back of your neck and push down it doesn’t necessarily mean your head is going to move. it could also force you to gasp bend at the knees to absorb the force.
artest was attempting to ride kobe out of bounds by doing everything he could, which included fouling him. a foul was called on artest, as it should have been. the foul that was missed was kobe’s elbow to ron ron’s CHEST, whether it was a motion of him gathering himself for the rebound or a clear out attempt. Agreed, it needs to be addressed, most likely with a post game flagrant 1.
But was kobe’s move any dirtier than ron’s? not even close.
IT WASNT TO THE CHEST
ONLY LAKER FANS BELIEVE THAT.
J.A. ADANDE SAID IT WAS TO THE THROAT
JALEN ROSE SAID IT WAS TO THE THROAT
KENNY SMITH SAID IT WAS TO THE THROAT
CHARLES BARKLEY SAID IT WAS TO THE THROAT
ROCKETS FANS ARENT BEING BIASED, WE ARE BEING HONEST. Yes the refs missed the call on Ron that they could have made, but kobe still threw an elbow to the throat.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
You call us for being biased in a post that carefully analyzes body movements
and you blast us claiming physics but yet the pictures are there. Kobe’s elbow does not angle at Artest’s throat.
But if a million people say that 2 + 2 is 5, it must be true then, right?
Imagine if Artest had said he got elbowed in the balls...
We’d still be arguing here!
by Gils_Keloids on May 7, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't even want to think about that...
TexasHoosier would adamantly argue that an elbow to the chest was to the groin area and that frame by frame photographic evidence is wrong.
LALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING
Good argumentary tactics, TH. Before this series I respected Houston fans…
My name isn't really Iggy.
My take
No one played dirty. They both were throwing el-blows and Artest got called for the foul. Then he reverted back to his old ways. L.A. was the recipient of “home-cooking” and the Rockets shold expect the same treatment whence in Houston. I have played against many NBA players and you get away with whatever you can. Incidental or purposeful contact happens in contact sports. Just like the refs can call holding on EVERY play in a football game, but they don’t. This series, like the Boston-Chicago series, is good for the game. C’mon people. Let’s not act like we don’t know the sport of basketball. Houston is tough physically, but not mentally. L.A. needs to learn how to win other than on talent alone. With that being said, the Lakers will win in 7.
by arkansoul on May 7, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
There ya go. Right on the mark, +1.
Houston is tough physically, but not mentally.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
I don't wear glasses!!
If it’s okay to position yourself by leaning your body weight on top of the other player’s neck, oh sorry “top of the shoulders”, then expect the players to toss you aside like a little rag doll when he’s tired of carrying your butt. I would love to see how you would let someone pin you down like this when they want to get a rebound over you.
Our Laker color shades
are no worse than your Rockets shades.
I would say this if it were a Celtic. The Kobe elbow is a non issue.
I’m a Sox fan, and Manny was my guy.
Nice job Silver.
It is all there for everyone to see. I just re-watched that clip thanks to DVR. In watching the clip (your last photo) there is an elbow by Kobe and from what I saw in the TV angle TNT had is that it landed high on Artest’s chest. I am sure the NBA has different angles, however I don’t think it was a cheap shot to the thoat like some have made to believe.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
Lakers and Houston tied 1-1
Texashoosier
You’re obviously just as biased as any Lakers fan in this situation. Don’t deny this, it’s clear as day from your posts.
I don’t know why some points just don’t seem to get through to some people. Do they not read it, and just ignore it? Do they not look at certain pictures? Do they know that it’s true, but simply refuse to accept it? Do they have poor reading comprehension? All of the above? I don’t know, it’s truly puzzling.
The point is, Kobe shouldn’t get suspended for an elbow TO THE CHEST. Hopefully putting words in big letters makes them easier to read. Anything ABOVE THE SHOULDERS would warrant a suspension, but if it’s TO THE CHEST than it should be a fine at the most. Look at the freakin’ pictures, he elbows Artest in the chest. His head isn’t in his chest, at least it shouldn’t be. His chest IS NOT above his shoulders. NOR IST IT his head. If you truly believe that, you’ve got a goofed up perception of human anatomy.
Secondly, they’re battling for rebounding position. How can you deny that Artest is shoving Kobe in the shoulders and head? That’s not legal either, but because Kobe made a hard swing to clear space, he’s the bad guy. Nevermind that Artest was sitting on top of him for the whole sequence, Kobe’s the villain as always.
I also like how Kobe saying “you can’t guard me” is him looking for approval. That’s an everyday component of competitive sport. You’ll find trash talk at almost EVERY level, yet if Kobe does it it’s worse than anybody else.
And he wasn’t “jawing” at Doug Collins. That would imply that they had some type of conflict between them, when that isn’t the case. He may have been talking to him, but that’s certainly different than jawing at a person. ARTEST was jawing to Kobe. That’s jawing. Kobe wasn’t doing that to Collins, like one of the articles says.
He was trying to pick a fight with Battier? Get off it. Of course, Kobe HAS to be trying to pick a fight with Battier, otherwise how could you paint him as the league villain?
Please read Daily Dime by J.A. Adande on ESPN
or watch sportscenter, or any other sports news show. Im not being biased because ALL THE ANALYSTS SAY IT WAS TO THE THROAT TOO!!! Get over your laker love for a second and realize the truth.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
It wasn't directly to the throat
Maybe it got Artest a little close to the throat area, but it was still not even in the region.
Bork bork bork!
Huh??
Maybe it got Artest a little close to the throat area, but it was still not even in the region.
I dont know how people reason in Cali, but thats pretty contradictory to me. How can something be a little close to the throat area, but still not in the region?? Please explain, im honeslty confused.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions
TexasHoosier - sorry but you're wrong
I’ve been a Rocket’s fan for 15 years now, and I originally thought that yes Kobe elbowed Artest in the throat. But watching the replays and the pictures, especially the one shot from the front, I’m almost certain now that Kobe got him in the chest, or at least never meant to hit Artest in the throat. It could have been that Artest’s head moved downward right at the wrong moment, but Kobe sure as hell didn’t mean to elbow him.
Look, I’m a fan of the old school Rockets Deke and Yao and even McGrady, I’ve never really been a fan of Artest, since he came on last offseason, and though he’s a really good basketball player he hasn’t shown the spirit. As much as I want my Rockets to win this, I have to say you’re wrong about this, Texas
by yao_the_great on May 7, 2009 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions
unbelievable
Jesus walked on water.
Turned water to wine.
Kobe threw an elbow and hit Artests’ throat.
im guessing J.A. Adande claimed the first two as well?
by Three2ThreeLakerFan on May 7, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Uhhh...
I’m assuming you’re citing the first two as examples of things people claim happened, but actually didn’t. Problem is, plenty of people believe they did, and that’s not a discussion we want here.
Let’s try and leave religion at the door.
16...15...14...13...12...11...
Strength & Honor
Some things I am biased about the Lakers.....THIS ISN'T ONE OF THEM
I just saw a replay of the incident on SportsCenter from the opposite angle and Kobe got him in the chest not the neck. Artest tried to sell it and it didn’t work.
GO BRONCOS IN 2009 AND BEYOND!!
Lakers and Houston tied 1-1
How can it be to the throat
If the photographic evidence says otherwise?
Get over yourself, dude.
OMG!! TEH ANALYSTS SAY IT!!! And they’re right all the time, right? If you believe everything you hear on ESPN, just because it’s ESPN, then you’re beyond help.
ESPN has an obligation to make this as controversial as possible.
Ratings.
What they think doesn’t matter, does it. They have the biggest agenda in creating controversy.
Not trying to be an ass
I’m just saying, all of them thought the Lakers would win the ring last year too.
And that’s the problem with major media outlets. Anything they say is the truth, just because they are an authority on the matter. Look at it for yourself for a minute, without any basketball bias. Honestly, can you really see an elbow above the shoulders? Look at the pictures. Don’t distort them, look at them clearly.
If you still see an elbow to the throat, then fine. You’ve got your view of it and that’s fine.
But really, because they’re analysts?!?! They’re human beings too, and get paid to say interesting and controversial things. They have bias as well as we do, that much is obvious.
Sports Commentary
I’m sorry but I just can’t stand Doug Collins’ biased commentary against the Lakers. I think the primary reason why the big stir and outrage over Kobe’s supposed elbow to the throat, is primarily due to the fact that DC can’t stand the Lakers which goes back several years when he frequently commentated on the Kobe & Shaq show. He hated Shaq, and he made this quite clear during the Laker games he worked. Now, he tries to hide it a little better but it still comes out. That kind of bias makes me turn the volume down and turn on the radio.
In game 2 last night, DC pointed out that Artest was claiming Kobe elbowed him in the throat. But then after replay and review, DC pronounced a definitive judgement that Kobe certainly did elbow Artest in the throat, and made mention of it purposely several more times. That is precisely why everyone is all over Kobe today.
I used my DVR to slow-mo the replay and within a few seconds, it was crystal clear that there was no elbow above shoulder level from Kobe to Artest. And as Silver has pointed out here, I could see that the refs got it right because Artest committed about three times as many fouls prior to Kobe’s during the sequence of events. But what I am incensed about is that the networks have far superior equipment for replay, review, still frame, slow-mo, etc., and DC can’t see the obvious? DC is just a first class liar who’s own personal hatred for the Lakers has compromised his professional integrity as a sports commentator.
Yes i can see an elbow in the video
but not in the photos. I know i wont change your minds, which is sad cause yall are wrong and stubborn, but its understandable.
About the analysts, youre right that they are paid to make controversies bigger, but they are also paid to be as unbiased as possible, and provide real analysis. There is a reason they are the analysts and we arent. They know the game better than we all do. And if they really wanted to create the most controversy as possible, then they would be saying that kobe should be suspended, which they arent.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
Oh come on man
ESPN is a breeding ground for opinions, and Barkley is the king of opinions. Just because they’re opinions doesn’t make them right.
Bork bork bork!
common sense
and if they are biased, then why would they be on Artest’s side. I would think they would be on the side of the “greatest player in the world”
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
You're Stubborn
The replay from the front showed it as clear as it could get.
THERE WAS NO CONTACT ON THE THROAT!
and that interview on Artest after the game with him saying his throat is sore?
WOW.
Really dude?
by Three2ThreeLakerFan on May 7, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I love the rockets but
Look as much as I love the Rockets, Texas you’re just wrong about this one. You really think Charles Barkley is the most unbiased person? He’s full of crap, as is Kenny Smith (though to a lesser degree). It doesn’t matter, that’s not why we lost. We need to player better defense. Being physical is good but it’s all about fundamentals. We gave up way too many turnovers – it didn’t matter that Artest was not in the game the last couple of minutes, if we give up that many turnovers, winning the game is impossible.
by yao_the_great on May 7, 2009 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Good point
Then everything we are saying doesnt matter because they are opinions. So maybe yall are right, maybe I am right. But either way, every replay i see looking as unbiased as i can, i see an elbow to the throat.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
What you should talk about is
Yao turning into the Yao we know. Brooks turning back into himself. Dribbling too much. Lowry doing nothing. Landry playing super, and Ron playing great and then kicking himself out, the Wafer getting tossed by his own coach.
Nope
A lot of online bloggers give better analysis than those folks do. The only difference is they’re on a bigger outlet. Doesn’t make them more right in the least, both of these blogs (SSR and Dream Shake) provide better analysis than the guys at ESPN.
They aren’t paid to be as unbiased as possible. The reason they are analysts and we aren’t is because they have money for one, and secondly they stir up controversy. Controversy generates ratings and word of mouth.
Sheridan says the elbow was in the chest area
On the Bryant-Artest play, the two were battling for rebounding position when Bryant struck Artest with his elbow. Artest immediately began gesturing and arguing that he had been elbowed in the neck, but replays appeared to show Bryant’s elbow striking Artest on his upper chest, just above the “R” on Artest’s Rockets jersey.
Bork bork bork!
Doesn't matter
What the replay shows. To some fans it will for sure be a blow to the throat, even if video and photos show a blow to the chest.
I dont think
anyone here have received a decent hit on the throat.
any tough guy, even ron artest would be choking and probably wont be able to talk nor better yet scream after receiving an elbow to the throat.
by Three2ThreeLakerFan on May 7, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
watch the damn video.
enough of this frame by frame analysis. The video clearly shows whats going on.
Ron’s left arm is not applying pressure to Kobe’s head or neck. And kobes head isn’t “snapped back, presumably from the force of the blow”.
They are looking for the freaking ball to get the rebound.
Ron never makes any motion with his left arm to kobe’s head or neck. Its just there and kobe is manuvering around it.
watch the play in motion and enough of this frame by frame crap.
Clearly there is an elbow and a tech should have been called on kobe and a foul on artest.
But the officials blew the call. Ron should not have gotten in kobes face. And no way should artest have been kicked out.
We are getting distracted over where the elbow landed instead of realizing we agree there was an elbow and the officials blew it.
Dont hate the player, hate the league for being inconsistent.
by jlytle1234 on May 7, 2009 10:10 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Finally someone with some common sense
I appreciate your honesty. Its nice to see mixed in with all these stubborn laker fans.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions
ronron got thrown out
because he was asking to get thrown out. in a game as chippy as that one ALREADY was (scola/odom, scola/walton, fish decking scola) refs give you a tiny leash. elbows happen, not disputing that there was intent with kobe’s elbow sending a message to artest… but you need to handle yourself in a playoff setting. you can’t run up to another player and get right up in his face after 3 t’s, a flagrant, and an ejection - joey crawford immediately stepped in and pushed artest away from kobe. it was only after artest kept yelling at kobe (after he had already been separated and t’d up) that he was thrown out of the game. without the context of everything happening before this, he does not deserve to be thrown out- but considering that the refs had made it a point to warn the teams during a timeout (according to the broadcast) as well as the course of the game, he ABSOLUTELY deserved to be thrown out for reacting how he did.
c’mon… if you’re going to make your point, make it in a more subtle manner ronron. it does the game no good to see a player having a quality night get tossed for not being able to control himself. stay out of kobe’s face and help your team win the battle ON THE FLOOR. (oh yeah, and stay out of our stands, crazy man)
I have a question for you.
Hypothetically, if the roles were reversed, do you HONESTLY think kobe would have been thrown out?
I cant honestly say that i think he would have. I think Ron was thrown out because he is Ron Artest and people are still scared of him.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
i do.
i think when a game gets that tense, you can’t make overt displays of aggression (i’m sure artest was just having a spirited discussion with kobe, there’s no way it was going to get beyond that), especially during stoppages of play. and especially after bringing attention to yourself when you didn’t get your way with the ref after yelling at him 5 seconds earlier.
also
having watched kobe for the past couple years.. he is very aware of where the line is and definitely pushes the envelope (sometimes getting T’s for going too far) but he is always in control. he’s an asshole sometimes, i’ll give you that.. but i wouldn’t say he’s hotheaded and ever loses himself like artest did there.
Ron didn't get thrown out for getting in Kobe's face
He only got one T for that. He then earned a second technical for shouting something at Joey Crawford, and drawing a finger across his neck, at Kobe. It looked to me like a threat, first and foremost. That wasn’t what it was, but it was enough to get Artest kicked out.
Kobe said he didn’t think Artest should have been ejected. He probably didn’t see the second part.
My name isn't really Iggy.
artest had already been ejected when he gave the throat motion
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
I knew from day one that Artest was crazy
Other Houston fans don’t seem to see it. He’s the Terrell Owens of Basketball. If all he ever did was jump into the fans and start punching fans, then that’d be okay. But he’s had a history of issues with teammates starting with not passing the ball to Yao enough and jacking up crazy three-pointers. But whatever, he’s played well as of late, so we ignore that he doesn’t have much class.
by yao_the_great on May 7, 2009 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions
As a Cowboy fan
I understand the blinders. I despised T.O. until he got to Big D. He was OK with me while he was there. Now, I’m kinda glad he’s gone. Even if he didn’t do anything wrong, the distractions he caused because of his history itself made him a pain in the ass to have around. Artest could be a changed man, I don’t know, but his history will dog him whether it’s fair or not.
Agree
This frame-by-frame analysis is dumb.. they were shoving for position for the rebound, which happens in every game. The elbow was clearly a fragrant foul, because it was an action separate from jostling for position. It’s hard to say whether it hit Ron’s throat, but clearly Kobe wasn’t looking back to make sure his elbow didn’t hit Ron’s throat – Kobe just swung straight back with deliberate force. If Artest was a little lower, the elbow might have clocked him, but we can be sure Kobe’s intent wasn’t noble.
Other camera angles clear that question up
It clearly was a blow to the chest. Flagrant 1, and fully deserved.
Sorry you don’t like my analysis. As far as I’m concerned, at least it’s better than everybody saying this or that happened, without any actual evidence. At least I tried to break it down, to the best of my ability with the footage we had at the time, and figure out what actually happened.
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Kobe's intention was clear - using his elbow to inflict pain
Let me clarify – doing a frame-by-frame of the elbowing part wasn’t dumb, but doing a frame-by-frame of the events that led up to the elbow is dumb, because Kobe and Artest were shoving for position, so they weren’t trading exactly forceful blows. The stills make it look worse that it actually is. If I pushed you, and you took a picture, and then I punched you hard, and you took a picture at the point of impact, the two pictures might look similar, but in actually, the forceful punch is much worse. So the shoving and boxing out for position, which happens in every game, in no way justifies Kobe throwing that elbow. I mean, Kobe had his hand wrapped around Artest’s leg too. The forceful elbow blow is a separate and deliberate event. Also, my point is, Kobe had no way of knowing whether or not his elbow would’ve connected with Artest – they were both trying to get leverage by getting low, so Kobe just got lucky his elbow didn’t connect with Artest, if I take your assertion that it didn’t hit Artest’s throat. Let’s say Kobe threw a hard punch at Artest, but missed – you can say, well, Kobe didn’t hit Artest. But Kobe’s intent was a hard punch. Here, Kobe’s intent was a hard elbow – he didn’t try to avoid Artest’s throat – he could’ve used the back of his hand, or any other motion to avoid injurying Artest. But Kobe elbowed straight back at the position he was in – he’s no angel.
I mean, Kobe got lucky his elbow didn’t connect with Artest’s throat, if I accept your assertion that Kobe’s elbow didn’t connect with his throat.
Nobody's saying Kobe is an angel
If you read through this thread — and in fact, if you read my post — you’ll see that we’re very aware that Kobe intended a deliberate elbow, and no one is making excuses for it.
Let’s clear something else up: Take a still shot at virtually any moment of any two people fighting for position and boxing out for rebounds, and it won’t look bad. At all. Why? Because 99% of the time, they’re not grabbing each other by the back of the neck, and hitting each other in the face with elbows. Oh yeah… it happened. Don’t forget that Artest had an elbow of his own in there.
In addition, your assertion that Kobe didn’t know where his elbow would land is ridiculous. That implies that he wasn’t aware of his surroundings. He was completely aware of where he was, and he was in direct contact with Ron, and knew where he was. As he has done before — yes, we Laker fans are more than capable of admitting that Kobe does that — he deliberately elbowed him in the chest.
Yes, it was a deliberate blow, probably meant to cause some temporary pain, or more likely, just give him an advantage. But that’s no different than many other types of pushes, shoves, forearms, and other blows that happen when fighting for position. The fact that it was a deliberate, intended blow is why it’s a flagrant 1. If it wasn’t deliberate, it wouldn’t be a flagrant.
But just because he threw an elbow doesn’t merit suspension.
And as for the frame-by-frame of the events leading up to the elbow: It showed Artest connecting with Kobe’s head on an elbow. So obviously it wasn’t worthless. You can say it wasn’t as deliberate as Kobe’s elbow… perhaps true in a sense, but then, he deliberately put his arm on top of Kobe, and then he moved it in a dangerous way, so as far as I’m concerned, if you want to nitpick, he’s just as guilty.
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ESPN
Is also really unoriginal. They repeat the same articles people have already heard before, trying to sell it as news.
Elbows are part of basketball
If you can’t handle rough contact, especially when you’re dishing it out, then leave the sport.
ESPN just showed the baseline angle
That angle clearly shows that artest is pushing on kobe’s back with one arm which is completely legal. It also shows the kobe, which was intentional, and looks like it hits Artest in the chin and chest. Its tough to see, but it doesnt hit the throat.
The most important thing is that Kobe threw an INTENTIONAL elbow, knowing Ron was behind him.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 10:22 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
shows the kobe elbow*
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
You See What You Want To See
But frame-by-frame pictures don’t lie. The evidence points to Kobe’s innocence!!!
by Sports_Without_Politics on May 7, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Who's stubborn and all that stuff?
You don’t even have the guts to admit that you’re wrong. You were forcing everyone to believe it was to the THROAT right? But i don’t expect an apology from someone who’s that TRULY stubborn..
So he should get fined
The rules state anything above shoulder level is means for a suspension.
Answer this: Is the chest above the shoulders? No. So according to the rules, a elbow to the chest is not means for suspension. Pretty basic reasoning here.
That is true
But its still a dirty ass play.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
wasn't a throat slash
it was a very demonstrative elbowing gesture.
thank you
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
by TexasHoosier on May 7, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
Key word in post above mine is "insecure"
kobe is insecure, all of la is insecure. they found a matchup for themselves before the finals and now they are scared.
GET RED-DY FOR TOYOTA CENTER!!! ITS GOING TO BE NASTY FOR KOBE AND FISHER AND ALL OF YOUR BABY DOLL lakers!!
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
Sidwho
Sorry we don’t all abide by your warped view of reality..
How are people not recommending this?
Great work. Helps shed some light on this for me.
The game is physical, especially in the playoffs. Artest just doesn’t have the mental make-up to not over-react at crunchtime. Period.
hand picked
It’s SO easy to make this case if you use only a couple hand-picked photos.
If you actually watched this you can see Artest’s head jerk back – and if you’ve ever had that happen to you then you know you can’t fake that.
Seriously though, this is just weird. What’s up with the mysterious other camera angle? What is this, the JFK assassination?
Light Years Away From JFK
Your post is light years away from the JFK assassination. SilverScreenAndRoll did a fantastic job of showing where Kobe’s right elbow really was. Until the NBA can review further footage this rebound scene, your post is waaaayyyyy out of line.
by Sports_Without_Politics on May 7, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Lighten up
Seriously you don’t see the similarity? :)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt.htm
All these pictures and diagrams trying to explain vectors of motion… Seriously though c’mon, YOU CAN’T SEE HIS ELBOW IN THESE PICTURES!
A thousand cameras in the place and no one has a picture of his elbow? It’s just weird, and I withhold my judgment until I see something more definitive. Kobe’s a freakishly gifted athlete, and I’m not ruling anything out.
You absolutely can see Kobe's elbow
Besides, we now have ESPN video showing the elbow hitting Artest square in the numbers, from the other side. Check the update to the post, it contains the video.
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Strength & Honor
No it's called Sportscenter, try a cable box.
"Don't I know you from somewhere"?. "Nah, that ain't me, I'm from Buffalo" - Axel Foley
Great Article By "SilverScreenAndRoll"
As it is said in the Biblical phrase of St. John, 8:31-32, "Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
Truth definitely has merit in every facet of life from mathematics, engineering, physics, medicine, science, and even in sports, where evidence must be made to judge fairly whether or not a flagrant foul has been committed. So seeing is believing and the evidence points to Kobe’s elbow making contact with Artest’s chest. Until the NBA reviews further footage of Artest’s claim of being hit with Kobe’s right elbow, the evidence given by “SilverScreenAndRoll” points to Kobe’s innocence!!!
by Sports_Without_Politics on May 7, 2009 11:29 AM PDT reply actions
No denial from Kobe.
Just like to point out that in all the post-game interviews, Kobe never denies Artest’s complaint of the elbow to the throat. He basically gives a “no comment” and attributes it to “this is the playoffs.” I seriously wouldn’t think Artest would have gone berserk if he hadn’t felt an elbow at his throat. Even if it had hit his upper chest and glanced to his throat.
This isn’t the first time Kobe has gotten caught for his elbows. He’s probably the best player on the planet. Why does he feel the need to play dirty? He would be much more respected without that kind of label. I really try to like Kobe as good as he is, but stuff like that leaves me with no respect.
Also, the reason why Fisher would be suspended is not for the foul itself, but for “malicious intent” despite his BS about trying to run through the screen. He loaded up like he was in a MMA bout. If he was taller, he would have taken off Scola’s head. I guess he learned all that from his stint in Utah. Classless.
Recheck Your Post-Game Interviews
What Kobe said was that he made a statement saying the game was getting very physical, but made no mention of the elbow. So until the NBA makes a ruling upon further footage of the actually rebounding incident, the frame-by-frame pictures given by “SilverScreenAndRoll” points to Kobe’s innocence.
By the way, Artest said after his post-game interview that he has always played physical since college and even watched someone die from a foul. So what does that statement tell the public? It says Artest considers basketball a street game rather than a test of physical skill in the NBA!!!
by Sports_Without_Politics on May 7, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
you first
Are you serious? Did you hear what he said right after that?
No, You First!
Serious, eh? No, I am actually posting something hillarious and funny. And no, I didn’t hear what “he said right after that.”
by Sports_Without_Politics on May 7, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Rockets fan here
I’m kind of split on this. I think that Ron did indeed foul Kobe and he did get called but I don’t get how the chest elbow is better than a throat elbow. I guess if we’re talking suspension for Kobe, which I don’t think will happen, then it matters but if we’re talking general fouls then yes it is.
Just because Ron fouled him first does not mean retaliation is warranted.
It should’ve been a double foul, maybe a flagrant on Kobe, and a tech on Ron for jawing at both Kobe and the refs. I don’t think his actions deserved an ejection.
action vs. intent
i think it looked a lot worse than it actually was for artest (in regards to why he was ejected) because he sprinted over to kobe solely to get into his face. you can’t do that.
The difference between chest and throat
Is that one is specifically designated as an automatic suspension in the rules. The other is not. That is what is at stake here.
As for Ron’s ejection: He got the first technical for the reason you said. The problem was that when the refs tried to split him up, he kept going after it, kept trying to get at Kobe, wouldn’t shut up. And he kept on and kept on. Everyone knows how this works in the NBA. That’s a second technical, which is automatic ejection.
Add to that the fact that the players had already been warned at a previous break, and it’s clear that the second tech was warranted.
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Strength & Honor
Yeah, but
we’re here dissecting this whole thing. Artest didn’t do anything but talk in Kobe’s face. Pretty much the same thing Kobe had been doing to Battier all night.
I don’t see how what would normally be considered a hard foul, when seen by the refs, is ok because he was fouled first. Besides Ron did get punished for his actions. Kobe didn’t.
Also I can see where certain reactions could be considered “acting”. All the players do it nowadays. Like I said I’m split. I think it should’ve been a double foul. The reason Artest felt he had to tell Kobe what he did is because Kobe wasn’t called as well.
Doesn't anyone here watch Sportscenter?
They showed the reverse angle and Kobe CLEARLY hit him about 1-2" above the R in Rockets. This is during the play, with Ron Ron behind him, not in front of him, after getting mugged. SUSPENSION? What is this, tennis? If the league suspends him they are pathetic…………oh wait, he may be in trouble.
"Don't I know you from somewhere"?. "Nah, that ain't me, I'm from Buffalo" - Axel Foley
Are You Begging?
Get your own!
by Sports_Without_Politics on May 7, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions
It can now be found at the bottom of my post, as an update
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Strength & Honor
share what? Sportscenter?
"Don't I know you from somewhere"?. "Nah, that ain't me, I'm from Buffalo" - Axel Foley
I dvr'd it from last night.
Looking at it now frozen on screen. I would say about 3 inches below the neck and about 2" above the R. His jersey is up a bit which is why the R is only about 5" from neck.
"Don't I know you from somewhere"?. "Nah, that ain't me, I'm from Buffalo" - Axel Foley
No I think it was 4 inches below the neck
And 1 above the R
by Gils_Keloids on May 7, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Damn, I think you're right. I just re-did the calculations. LOL
"Don't I know you from somewhere"?. "Nah, that ain't me, I'm from Buffalo" - Axel Foley
Let's put it this way. It definitely hit in the red part of the jersey, between the R and the white neck stripe.
"Don't I know you from somewhere"?. "Nah, that ain't me, I'm from Buffalo" - Axel Foley
LOL.
It’s pslakerfan, not pslakersfan. But hey it’s no big deal. Wait did you say slit my throat? Nice.
"Don't I know you from somewhere"?. "Nah, that ain't me, I'm from Buffalo" - Axel Foley
Let me get you a knife. And my address.
"Don't I know you from somewhere"?. "Nah, that ain't me, I'm from Buffalo" - Axel Foley
I kind of figured you were kidding.........that's why I kid back....
I don’t know where you can see it. I just recorded Sportscenter and Jalen Rose went over the other angle. He said he thought it was the chest not the neck. Either way I don’t think it should be a suspension. I know the rule, but the rule is just the league’s pathetic way to standardize every call so they don’t have to decide on it’s own merits and therefor be accused of playing favorites.
If you want to get techincal Deron Williams did the exact same thing to Bynum a few weeks back that Fisher did last night. Almost exactly the same. Only difference is that Bynum didn’t fall down. It wasn’t even a Flagrant 1
"Don't I know you from somewhere"?. "Nah, that ain't me, I'm from Buffalo" - Axel Foley
No one is asking the real question here..
When did Artest become such a whiny little bitch? Seriously. If this was 1985 he would get laughed off the court for whining about that play.
"Don't I know you from somewhere"?. "Nah, that ain't me, I'm from Buffalo" - Axel Foley
I thought sternum was below the chest? My anatomy isn't great.
"Don't I know you from somewhere"?. "Nah, that ain't me, I'm from Buffalo" - Axel Foley
lol, actually the sternum is the chest in scientific terms
just so it’s clear and nobody (Rockets fans, I’m looking at you) starts blurring the lines and saying that the sternum is now the throat.
You Make A Great Doctor
And comedian!!
by Sports_Without_Politics on May 7, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Imagine how much money that job would be raking in...
Saving lives and flirting with nurses in the day and healing lives and flirting with waitresses in the night.
Oopps!!! Made A Boo-Boo!!! Didn't reply properly!!!
You Sure, It’s About The Money!
And everything else what this nation stands for!!! Go ahead "Doctor hertagnism" and make some internal examinations of people other than your own.
by Sports_Without_Politics on May 7, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Your right
You’re right, it was Scolas fault. I don’t think there was even any contact between Scola and Fisher….and if it was, I’m sure it was Scola’s fault. .Fisher did not mean any harm anyways…He definitely didn’t see him coming. Plus, seriously I think Fisher has only committed five or six fouls this season. The rest have been terrible calls.
Artest was entirely at fault here. He was the only one who did anything wrong here. Kobe did not do anything wrong here. Plus, even if he did, he’s a star so he should be able to get away with some things.
I’m tired of all the Rockets fans inciting Kobe’s alleged rape…Who even cares if he raped someone?? He’s really good at basketball.
I think Artest should be suspended for perhaps the rest of the series, Scola for making Fisher look like a jerk for games 3 and 4. I also believe Carl Landry should be suspended. Do you see how much he smiles?? It’s ridiculous. You should not be allowed to be that happy on the basketball court.
I’d also like to let out a sigh of relief. Thank God David Stern wants us (the Lakers) to win again like Sacramento 2002. Thankfully, he has come to realize no one wants to see Chuck Hayes, Shane Battier, and Carl Landry in the finals, and has influenced the officiating accordingly. Its about freaking time.
By the way...
did you hear that Fisher stepped in because Scola was jawing at Walton and Odom. Fisher didn’t think that those two guys could handle Scola, so Fisher got protective of them.
What an absurd assumption
The idea that Fisher didn’t think they could handle them is pure conjecture, and baseless. Standing up for your teammates is something athletes do on a constant basis, and it never is taken to mean they don’t think their teammates can stand up for themselves.
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Strength & Honor
There's a code in basketball. We don't know what Scola did or didn't do. But Fisher thought it worthy of retaliation and put one for the ages on him...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
that's funny
you’re saying that if the lakers win, its a fix and if the rockets win they deserve it? LOL!
You Sure, It's About The Money
And everything else what this nation stands for!!! Go ahead “Doctor hertagnism” and make some internal examinations of people other than your own.
by Sports_Without_Politics on May 7, 2009 12:34 PM PDT reply actions
Even if It came to it
Even if it came to a fight between Artest and Kobe, I think we all know Kobe would win. Artest only outweights him by 60 pounds of muscle. Plus if Kobe needed help, he could get Pau Gasol whose almost as strong as Aaron Brooks. I’m just sayin, Artest watch yourself.
Not The NBA Anymore
It’s street basketball, which is lowest form of thuggery you can think of.
by Sports_Without_Politics on May 7, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions
The lowest? SERIOUS?
And your name is Sports_Without_Politics?
“Anymore”? You must have slept through the 80’s and 90’s.
RuudUnit???
Yeah, I’m actually trying to be funny and hilarious because street BB being played by Artest is the lowest form of thuggery.
What does my alias have to with “The lowest? SERIOUS?”
“Anymore, eh?” Yeah, more exposure of the truth should said. If I slept through the 80s and 90s, then you must of been born yesterday since you’ve never heard of politics in sports.
by Sports_Without_Politics on May 7, 2009 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Let's stop this
This isn’t a basketball conversation anymore. It’s two people making stupid, unhelpful assumptions about each other. Let’s stop this now.
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Isn't Kobe a black belt in Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do?
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Yeah
I don’t honestly think Kobe is afraid of Artest in any way. Hell in that Indy brawl Stephen Jackson threw the best punch. C’mon people. Kobe takes shots to the face all the time. Don’t act like the league has some protective bubble around him.
hahaha
wow this is the most biased review of this play ever. just watch the replay. ron ron didn’t THROW any elbows. kobe did. it seemed to me that he was trying too hard to be seen as a “tough guy” instead of just going out and playing the game
Playing the game?
Seems like he was playing the game fairly well last night, he dropped 40 points on 16-27 against one of the best defensive teams in the league.
Frankly, I don’t give a damn if Kobe elbowed Artest in the throat. Rough stuff happens in sports.
What difference does it make? Kobe should be banned from the league? Calm the F down.
Red Rockets glare
You know that angle is from the floor, right? His elbow could very well be in Artests chest, not throat. From the angle, his elbow is going to look higher than it actually is.
Get out of here with your optical perspective
Witchcraft mumbo-jumbo. The players are also two inches tall.
That's ESPN's clip
and this:
“On the Bryant-Artest play, the two were battling for rebounding position when Bryant struck Artest with his elbow. Artest immediately began gesturing and arguing that he had been elbowed in the neck, but replays appear to show Bryant’s elbow striking Artest on his upper chest, just above the “R” on Artest’s Rockets jersey."
is in the article the clip is posted with….
Man, Artest is not cool
I was watching ESPN’s clip of the play, and the whole time Artest was raping Kobe under the basket. First he’s pushing him with both hands in the back, which is a foul in itself. This causes Kobe to lean forward. Then, like the pics show, he puts his elbow up to Kobe’s neck and head and hooks him as he pushes farther out. Dirty play by Ron.
Dude, I just watched the video
His elbow CLEARLY connects below his neck. You’re blind, man.
Of course his elbow is pointing up, it's a shot from BELOW
If you were looking at it straight on, Kobe’s elbow is on Ron’s chest.
Kobe would have to angle his elbow and arm to hit Ron in the chest. Look at the motion itself. Kobe swings his elbow straight back, not up and back.
I'm not supporting Kobe's elbow
But it’s not an elbow to the throat. Sure, he should have gotten a T for it, you’re right.
exactly...but a suspension
would be completely uncalled for…like jalen rose said they were battling for the rebound during play, and both were being physical, kobe shouldn’t have elbowed him but it was not in the throat
I've figured it out!
From looking at the opposite angle on video, it looks from the jerk back of Ron’s head, that Kobe may have hit Ron’s throat. The problem is, according to where I thought the impact was, Kobe’s elbow hits the HOLLOW AT THE BASE OF RON’S THROAT. So for all the lawyers out there, this is a sticky predicament.
It’s not enough to say that Kobe hit the throat, it’s where he hit the throat. Because the base of your throat is not above your shoulders. For most us, it’s right AT the shoulders. Are his neck muscles part of his shoulders? I think the exact location is right on the borderline of the wording of the rules, so good luck to the NBA office dealing with the fallout of this one. It’s damn close.
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Strength & Honor
If it had been Switched
If Kobe ran over to talk to Artest, the refs wouldn’t have said anything… but ron artest doesn’t get the special treatment kobe gets (in fact if ron frowns, refs are tempted to call a technical)
Not true
Kobe has been ejected before, sometimes for less. Here’s one example. And here’s another.
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Just play basketball
Wow!!! Can everyone grow up? For god sake this is playoff basketball – just grow up and play like a man. Stop whining it is Ron’s fault, Kobe’s fault – all that crap. If you are here to watch playoff – dirty or physical or cute – just watch it and enjoy.
It was an elbow.
Artest was elbowed on the lower part of his neck and upper chest. The description of the picture shows Kobe’s neck being snapped by Artest. Do you know why his neck is looking snapped? Because he was looking at the ball right above him, not because of Artest.
Basically, Kobe gets frustrated and he resorts to dirty play. Artest isn’t dirty, he is physical. When they were fighting for position, do you know why Kobe was lower than Artest? It wasn’t because Artest was pushing him down, it’s because he was getting ready to jump for the ball. You don’t do that by standing straight up.
Artest is a bigger guy than Kobe, and that’s why it looks like he was getting manhandled down low. If Artest was fouling him, then the refs called the fould. No reason at all for Bryant to throw the elbow. Look at his hand. It’s pretty much clenched as he was elbowing Artest. Artest was simply using his weight to fight for position.
Using your weight is one thing
Applying said weight to your opponent’s head and neck is another.
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A Big Bumpity Bump To Your Post
For disproving Artest’s claim he was elbowed directly in the neck. Artest is a dirty player that should be monitored closely in Houston’s house.
by Sports_Without_Politics on May 7, 2009 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions
And so should Kobe
Kobe is the one who recieved the most recent flagrant foul remember?? Artest hadnt gotten ejected from a game all season until last night. Stop hanging artest’s past over him. The brawl happened 6 years ago. And its hard to blame a guy who gets a beer thrown on him. I would have done the same thing, and so would most people.
Game 1 100-92 Rockets
Game 2 111-98 lakers
Series Tied 1-1
I wouldn't have done the same thing, nor would Kobe
BUT… that said, I can get on board with all the rest of your comment. I’m absolutely okay with not holding his past against him.
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Like I Said Artest Should Be Monitored Closely
>>>>
…..Artest hadnt gotten ejected from a game all season until last night. Stop hanging artest’s past over him. The brawl happened 6 years ago…..
<<<<
Neither have I mentioned Artest’s history with the Pacers nor I have said anything about his past. In fact, it was Artest in post-game interviews that said he was always a physical player since college and even said he watched someone die from a foul. Given his admission to being a physical player, and looking at the frame-by-frame pictures above of Artest pushing down with his elbows on Kobe’s neck, anyone can see that Artest is inciting intimidation by physical play, which is WHY ARTEST SHOULD BE MONITORED CLOSELY for retaliation.
by Sports_Without_Politics on May 7, 2009 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions
gag
make a cobra out of your hand and strike your throat a little.ouch?!what more if that was an elbow?
It's just physical b-ball
You guys should just ignore the stuff that happens with the arms until after they start moving upward for the rebound. During the 1st part of the play both players are using the weight in their lower body to fight for position. Artest is driving with his legs to get closer. Kobe is lowering his weight to resist. After they straighten up, Kobe gives him an elbow to try to clear some space. He hit Artest at the bottom of his throat right at shoulder level which is not protected and that is why Artest reacted the way he did. When Artest ran over to Kobe he shouldn’t have touched him. Then maybe he stays in the game.
Recheck The Video Replay of The Rebound Above
>>>>
……Kobe is lowering his weight to resist. After they straighten up, Kobe gives him an elbow to try to clear some space. He hit Artest at the bottom of his throat right at shoulder level which is not protected and that is why Artest reacted the way he did…..
<<<<
The video replay clearly shows that Kobe flung his arm back which caught his elbow on Artest in the chest area way below the shoulders. Thanks to “SilverScreenAndRoll” the truth was caught on video!
by Sports_Without_Politics on May 7, 2009 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Houston and LA
This must be a Lakers/Kobe excuse site……….Ron Artest had his elbow on him he didn’t throw a elbow. How can you suspend Howard and not Kobe. The NBA has horrible officials.
Lets play role reverse if Artest threw the elbow he would be suspended.
BASKETBALL
I was truely amazed that a writer could manufacture so much out of a play that took maybe a a couple of seconds to place. Never saw kobes head “snap” back from “the blow” artest delivered, more like kobe looking up for the ball, much of what took place was two players trying to establish position under the basket, a big guy and a little bit smaller guy, which makes points of contact interesting, I saw kobe trying to duck to keep his position, I saw artest using his legs to move kobe out. most of what happens on just about every shot every night in every game at every level of basketball. To get seperation kobe threw a flagerant elbow, hmmmm artest tries to get his opponents star player ejected by complaining to the official. Looks to me like basketball. If artest just walks away nobody ever says anything, and the foul is never reviewed, again, Basketball.
I believe I mentioned that they could have both been looking for elbows
That was exactly my point — from the video, we just don’t know. But one is just as plausible as the other, which is why we can’t just jump to the conclusion that it happened as Artest said and suspend Kobe. That’s all I was saying.
I agree with you. It was just basketball, Kobe deserved a flagrant, Ron was acting. That’s what happened, that’s what the additional video released later showed, and that’s what the league ruled. That was my point. Anyone who was saying those things wasn’t getting any disagreement from me. It was those just accepting Ron’s account without any evidence and calling for Kobe’s suspension that I was responding to.
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the two are completely different
howard’s elbow came after the play….chances are if artest threw the elbow at kobe, kobe wouldn’t have been running around the court like a moron yelling in artest’s face.
It's over
Let’s play ball! GO LAKERS!!!!!!! WOOOHOOOO!!! TAKE HOUSTON DOWN THE FISHING DECK IS WAITING FOR THEM.
by The Queen has spoken on May 8, 2009 2:04 PM PDT reply actions
No kidding
I never saw that play itself as that big of a deal. It’s like holding in football. Happens all the time and isn’t always called right.
Good acting
by Ron-Ron after watching the play over and over myself I’m convinced Kobe didn’t connect with Ron throat but he tried to make it more then what it was and I’m glad noone brought into that mess but its over and soon so will be this series
We better start getting ready....
Lakers parade. I need to figure out what I am going to wear. Heee heeee.
by The Queen has spoken on May 13, 2009 11:44 AM PDT reply actions
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