Back down off that ledge, Lakers fans
by C.A. Clark on Dec 29, 2009 9:00 AM PST
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PrintWith the Lakers latest big loss at the hands of the Phoenix Suns last night, there's a general sentiment of panic spreading throughout LakerLand right now. I can't help but feel partially responsible for giving it a voice (on SS&R at least) by writing this piece. While I still stand behind my work, the truth is that the Lakers are just fine. And if you are pointing at last night's Suns game as further proof that the Lakers are in serious trouble, you really need to take a look around the NBA and see how unimportant losses like this one are in the grand scheme of things.
Before I explain to you why you shouldn't care about last night's loss, let me clarify my points in the previous "panic" post. That post basically broke down like so:
- The 2008-2009 Lakers were often lazy and unmotivated, but when they brought their "A" game, they were unrivaled, as evidenced by sweeping both Cleveland and Boston.
- That team was also very resilient, often responding to tough situations and bad losses with a strong performance
- Those characteristics were present throughout the season for the Lakers, and ended up playing out exactly the same way in the playoffs. The Lakers resilience allowed them to win Games 3 and 6 of the WCF in Denver, and their unmatched "A" game allowed them to plow through Orlando (who swept L.A in the regular season) in the Finals.
- The 2009-2010 Lakers have more consistent effort, especially on the defensive end, but have failed to perform in games against the other elite teams of the league so far (in a very small sample size).
- I also said I wanted to see the Lakers display some of that championship resiliency. In reviewing this, I was actually dead wrong. The Lakers have been every bit as resilient this season as last. After getting beat down by Dallas, the Lakers beat a very good Hawks team by double digits without Pau Gasol, and won the next 5 games as well. After losing two bad games to Denver and Houston, the Lakers responded with an 11 game win streak. The loss in Utah was followed by the Lakers sweeping the rest of their 5 game road trip. And the victory against Sacramento was won on resiliency alone.
Which brings us to last night's game. The Lakers came out flat on the offensive end, again. The defense sort of showed up for the 1st half of last night's game, but that seemed more of a mirage to me than anything else. The Suns had a lot of open shots, and missed them. In the 2nd half, they didn't miss. 9-17 from 3 pt range for the Suns, after going 3-16 in the 1st half. Put simply, the Suns got hot and put away a game that, if we're honest, should have been done with by halftime.
Now, some of you may be thinking that last night's game proves my points about the Lakers not being at their best against elite competition. That doesn't really work for a number of reasons. First of all, Phoenix really isn't elite. I don't mean that in a way to take anything away from the Suns. They just aren't meant to be mentioned in the same sentence with the other championship contenders. They can't play D and they are undersized. Phoenix is a very solid team, right at the front of the 2nd tier. But, despite their hot start to the season, nobody outside their locker room thinks they have a chance to win it all this year.
Second, even if you do consider Phoenix to be an elite team, it actually bolsters the Lakers' performance against elite teams. The Lakers have already beaten this team twice, in grand fashion, at Staples Center. So, if losing to them last night is another example of the Lakers getting blown out by elite competition, then the two wins at Staples are examples of how the Lakers are doing just fine against the elite competition.
Third, the Suns previous performances at Staples Center both had one thing in common. The Suns, normally a very good shooting team, shot horribly in both games against L.A. Players play better at home, shooters shoot better at home, and the Suns had a whole lot of regression to the mean coming their way. After last night's game, the mean has been regressed.
No, the truth is that last night's game was just another road game against a good team who played well and got the victory. The Lakers didn't bring their best effort, and there isn't any excuse for that. But you certainly can't make the claim that the Lakers are incapable of playing Phoenix better than they did, because we've already been provided with two examples of how well the Lakers are capable of playing against the Suns. In short, last night's game is exactly the type of game the Lakers would have lost last year, the type of loss that is unavoidable over a full 82 game NBA schedule.
So I'm taking a step back from my fear-mongering. The Lakers still have the best record in the league, compliments of Boston pulling the unthinkable and losing back to back games against the Clippers and the Warriors. The Lakers are exactly on pace to match last year's W-L totals. And the fact is that this team has shown a much better level of consistency in effort this season as compared to last, which (despite how negative I made it sound earlier) is undoubtedly a good thing. Is the offense struggling mightily right now? Of course. Is the bench proving itself to be well below par? A hundred times, yes. They certainly haven't played at their best for a bit now. But, on a macro scale, the Lakers are right where they want to be.
Check out the NBA standings, and you'll see that everything is as expected. The Lakers are on top, with Boston, Cleveland and Orlando nipping at their heals. Boston is struggling just as badly as L.A. is right now. Orlando isn't doing so hot either. Cleveland looks great, but they've already had a "down" period in their season, so their current good play is just regression to the mean. Whether these teams (and the others that are fringe contenders) are peaking right now is irrelevant, only April through June matter.
You can and should look for trends, both comforting and troubling. But trends can change just as quickly as the wind, so don't get blown away by what you find just yet.
Some other notes regarding last night's game
- I don't want to take anything away from the Suns for last night's victory, but it was a classic case of Phil Jackson only sort of trying to win the game. Phil does this from time to time over the course of a season. Sometimes it's experimenting with a lineup in a high priority situation, and sometimes he doesn't think a victory is worth killing his team over. Last night's game fell under the latter. The 3rd game in a stretch of 4 games in 5 nights, following a double OT thriller in which his main components all played 50 minutes, PJ went to the bench early and often last night. He played a lineup including Farmar, Brown, and Vujacic at the same time, for about 4 minutes at the end of the 1st and into the 2nd. That lineup was -10, and the Lakers never recovered. PJ knew this would be a tough game to win under any circumstances. Add in the fact that the Lakers have no serviceable small forward, causing the team to either play a good player out of position, or a bad player who shouldn't be playing in the first place, and you could see PJ just decide that he would give the bench big minutes, even if it meant a loss. Double digit minutes for everyone on the bench except Josh Powell. Further evidence was that Kobe sat the last 8 minutes of the game, even while the game was still relatively within reach.
- Kelly Dwyer made mention recently that when a player goes down, it's not the player's backup that causes problems. It is the backup's backup. Which is why it might seem to you that Ron Artest is vitally important to the team, until you realize that the Lakers' choices at the small forward are the backup's backup, or whoever can fill in. There's a good reason PJ has never actually played Lamar Odom at the 3 before now, and he is only doing it now out of the desperation of trying to keep Adam Morrison or Sasha Vujacic from logging 20+ minutes and causing the apocalypse. Lamar is a good player, but he needs to be closer to the paint than the wing can afford him.
- Andrew Bynum bounced back a little bit to the tune of 14 pts and 9 rebounds, with 2 blocks. Then, he was promptly taken out of the game by fouls. Honestly, I don't remember whether the fouls were deserved or not at this point. But, for everyone who is down on Bynum and doubts the benefits of his presence on the court, take a look at the game flow over at Popcorn Machine for the 3rd quarter. When Bynum picked up his 4th foul, the Lakers were down by 7. 4 minutes later, they were down by 16, and PJ actually returned Bynum to the floor to try to stem the tide. He did, and the Lakers cut it to 12 by the end of the quarter.
Check out what Bright Side of the Sun has to say. And check the box and recap.
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Not going to lie
it is very comforting to see the fans of the “best team in the league” panic after a couple of losses.
And for whatever it’s worth, no one in the Suns locker room thinks they a contender. If anything, they’ve been lacking in confidence and swagger this month and have admitted to giving “elite” teams too much respect.
Good win for us. Great win at home to silence the far too many Lakers Kobe fans in attendance but in the scheme of things not a very meaningful game for either side.
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
dude its just a single game
no single game will ever prove who is better than who…..
anyone know of somethings called “flukes” ?
What are you talking about?
There was absolutely nothing in his post saying anything about anybody being better than anybody else …
I don't panic
I hyperize
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Dec 29, 2009 11:43 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
back off the ledge laker fan's
Good Morning. I like your blog,as i do all thing’s Laker’s. I have never commented before. While i don’t think it time panic. Well maybe just a little. Anyway i was thinking about this trade,and wanted to see what you guy’’s thought. I have’nt put it through the trade machine or anything. Courtney Lee,Ryan Anderson from the net’s that team is clearly going nowhere. Lee did a decent job on Kobe during the final’s. I think he could be a good back up to Kobe,maybe even play some pg. I think their still under their rookie contract’s. What do you think?
Personally, I don’t see it much as panicking as much as being tired of seeing the same weaknesess in wins or losess and seeing those weaknesess magnified even more during loses. Two consistent issues:
• Bynum’s effort
• The Bench’s lack of production and their knack for giving up big leads
That has been consistently the same but the Lakers record and their defensive ranking has caused everyone to feel that those flaws are acceptable because they are winning and are #1 in the NBA. But the number # 1 team rarely wins the title. Has everyone forgotten that we let the Lakers fool us all into thinking that they were going to beat the Celtics in 08 mainly because they coasted in the playoffs. I know if healthy the Lakers will be in the Finals. Let’s just hope that those flaws above don’t come back to bite this team in the ass in the Finals.
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 29, 2009 9:46 AM PST reply actions 4 recs
Can't you at least wait to criticize Bynum until he actually has a bad game?
I get the Bynum effort criticisms, but the guy just had 9 rebounds in 30 minutes. That doesn’t suck. Fine, you can find examples last night of Bynum dogging it if you look, but why are you looking? Are you looking for parts of the game where Kobe plays lazy defense? They are in there if you want. Does it mean that Kobe’s overall effort is poor? No.
At this point, I think people are looking at Bynum’s play expecting to be disappointed, so they are finding exactly what they think is going on. Let the numbers do the talking. 14 and 9 with 2 blocks in 30 foul plagued minutes is not a bad game. He had the lowest – rating of any of the starters last night. The game was blown open when he had to leave the game because of his 4th foul. I’m not saying all the talk about Bynum’s effort is without merit, or that he couldn’t pick things up on the defensive end. But he was actually one of the better performers on the team last night, and yet people are still throwing him under the bus like it is his fault the Lakers lost.
You are describing ONE GAME. I’m talking about consistency or lack of it on the defensive end. I agree regarding his foul trouble last night. But what about the other games? Personally for me, I don’t look at Bynum and try to see where he is failing. I freakin root for that kid all the time. After all, he is a Laker. One of the reasons why I don’t look for the same when it comes to Kobe is because no matter what happens Kobe will never lack effort. That is all this is about.
I don’t buy the excuse of his past surgeries because if that was the case then why does he seem so animated on the offensive end? Does his knee(s) start hurting the moment he gets on the defensive end? I don’t think so. I’m very optimistic about this team winning the title but as much as I follow this team I will always voice my opinion if I think it merits it. I rode LO for years about the same thing, until he proved me wrong and came through in these past playoffs.
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 29, 2009 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
Fair enough
I guess I just think the Bynum negativity talk should be given a brief rest in the face of the fact that he was good last night. I understand you are talking about trends, and not last night’s game. I just want you to give credit where credit is due, and Bynum deserves some credit for last night’s performance.
I agree
I think that Bynum has spurts defensively. But offensively he should be allowed off-nights because he plays alongside Kobe, Pau, Lo and Artest. I personally think he is a top 5 ctr in the entire NBA but sometimes I want the team to do so well that I am the first to admit that I am sometimes of a debbie-downer. Put you are right, last night he played exceptionally well.
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 29, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions
The Back-ups are killing us!!!
As a diehard Los Angeles Laker fan I try not to panic but there has been a problem for me that we have not addressed since Boston dispatched us in a not so kind fashion back in 2007. Where does our energy come from? True enough the team was soft as tissue paper, but they beat most teams based on the hustle of the second squad and the excellent play of the starters. The true bench mob consisted of players like Luke Walton, Trevor Ariza, or Vlad Radmanovic (whoever was not starting), Ronny Turiaf, Farmar, Lamar, Chris Mihm, Sasha, Mbenga, and Coby Karl.
What people fail to realize is that bench had size with two seven footers (Mihm and Mbenga) and two 6’10 payers in Odom and Turiaf. It had hustle with Farmar and Ariza, and shooting with Vlad Rad, Sasha, and Coby Karl. Heck Coby Karl even got in the occasional flush. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7004f2ABFc&feature=related
What was so good about that bench is that it had pieces that fit. Unfortunately those pieces were PUNKED by the Celtics but that was only because the two very important players were hurt (Ariza and Bynum). Those injuries caused us to move our Bigs out of position (and sometimes Kobe too) resulting in mismatches that were taken full advantage of by Boston.
That team was not ready for the Finals but it made it there regardless. It was a year too early for them, but the rest of the League took notice and now look at most benches. Orlando arguably has the best and the league; Cleveland has Zeke, Moon, and two good point guards; Boston’s bench is extremely good with Rasheed and Eddie House as offensive fireplugs, and Portland is super stacked with young high flyers, even Phoenix has a couple offensive threats on their bench with Barbosa’s speed and Jarod Dudley’s lights out shooting.
What should they do? Strengthen the bench and get rid of Andrew. I am one of the many that has lost patience with Andrew. He just doesn’t get it. Even with Phil and the coaching staff telling him to come back as a stronger defensive and rebounding presence he comes back looking for more offense. He is a black hole in the middle and everything just stops when he gets the ball, he doesn’t hit the cutter so no one cuts. He moves look awkward and if he doesn’t score he either complains he was fouled or just mopes his way down the court. We wanted Kareem and that is what he has become; the old man Kareem. For those who can remember Joe Barry Caroll (JBC – Just Barely Cares was his nickname), Chris Washburn, Stanley Roberts, Michael Oliwikandi, and last but not least Kwame Brown understand that some big men just never get it. They show signs of brilliance, but more than not they disappointed.
What would I do? I would be more than open to the idea of trading Bynum for Chris Bosh. He is only three years older but light years ahead of the game. He plays defense, can face up and shot from the outside (3 pointers even), and he would free Pau to do his thing without having to worry about pleasing the other big man. Kobe could go down on the block more often and so could Ron Ron. Everything works financially if you include one of our misfiring sharp shooters either Sasha the Miss-Chine or the other Morrison.
Just like losing Caron Butler and Turiaf, Ariza’s loss will haunt us. But we can overcome that with some minor deals. The Lakers have to get more athletic and better on the bench. Jayred Bayless in Portland is being shopped as well as Tyrus Thomas. Either one of those guys would be a great improvement. Bayless would eventually end up as our lead guard (he is that talented) when Fish finally hangs it up. Tyrus Thomas could assume Trevor’s role on the bench as a Defensive Stopper. The other misfiring sharpshooter (either Sasha or Morrison) for Jason Kapono would make the Lakers better but not more athletic.
Though financially responsible, keeping only 13 players is financially unwise. Why spend over $100 million if you are going to cheap out about the last couple that can put us over the top? All poker players know that if you are getting good odds on the bet, you take the chance. Dr. Buss should have realized this. It made the difference between us getting a player like Dejaun Blair and having him on the bench to help bang or one of the many free agents that could help this team out down the line.
Injuries happen, teams who play as many games as we do wear down but we are not prepared for either. Use the trade exception and get back Jarvis Crittenton and add depth to the point (because Farmar is gone after next year) and find some other active bodies in the D League or abroad and then we can talk about and all-time great team.
you honestly think the raptors would give us bosh for bynum???
your nuts
bynum is just in a slump. he needs to start working with kareem again on his game.
on the other hand i support a trade for a sharpshooter like Jason Kapono. we need a solid shooter/ threat on the perimeter which our bench and team (outside of kobe) sorely lacks.
"Just by the aura of D.J. Mbenga being there, the shot missed."
bosh for bynum?
why wouldnt they?
they know they arent gonna get bosh for anything past this year.. so why not get a guy you can have for the next 3 years locked up and who has a lot of potential…
i think it is plausible that the raptors give us bosh for bynum especially cause they will loose bosh in the offseason for nohting
by matthewmafa on Dec 29, 2009 12:31 PM PST up reply actions
but i doubt just bynum on his own would be enough
we would probably have to give up a few more players/maybe draft picks
still even if we got him it would push us even further over the salary cap
hard to see that happening.
"Just by the aura of D.J. Mbenga being there, the shot missed."
The notion that Toronto would give up Bosh for Bynum
Is laughable.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
Uh, no
Colangelo will take nothing less than a king’s ransom for Bosh at this point. That means a near-franchise player, a young talent, and draft picks. We don’t have that.
And as E-ROC indicates, Bosh wouldn’t solve our problems.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
huh??
bosh is gonna leave in the offseason anyways!!!! so i bet that coangelo would take anything near solid like (bynum farmar brown) and take them and run…. cause hes gonna lose bosh for nothing after the season
Except the Lakers can't make the best offer available on the market
If Colangelo indicates that he’s putting Bosh on the market, no offer the Lakers make will be able to match the level of offers available on the market.
Plus, I’m not sure Buss is interested in carrying a $100 million+ payroll for the next couple years.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
Huh?
If they were to sign him, he would be their free agent and they could pay him what he wants. Why wouldn’t he want to spend the money and be in perfect position to win championships. The most he can cut would be 10 – 15 million (Sasha in 2 years), Morrison and Farmar next year. So he will be spending $100 million anyway you look at it.
nope..
lakers dont need bosh at all… they need a defensive Center and some damn bench help
Originally when I saw the length of this I didn't want to read it but I'm glad I did
It has some pretty good stuff. I might think that the proposed Bosh trade in no way in hell could ever be made. BUT! aside from that, he is not that far off in regards to what his stance is on the Lakers organization. Good stuff! I hope you come back and share more of your point of views on the Lakers.
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 29, 2009 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
A very spirited debate indeed!
Thanks for the compliment. Never doubt Bosh to LA. I proposed the Pau Gasol trade three years ago over Garnett (too expensive) or Jermaine O’Neal (too many injuries and both scored mostly from the outside (82games.com). People said I was crazy then, so even though I know the Laker organization still likes Bynum, don’t think that the complete package of Bosh is not a viable temptation.
You are welcome
Bosh at least has heart. Come back on our game threads and share you opinion. YOu have some pretty interesting thoughts.
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 31, 2009 12:13 AM PST up reply actions
Another enjoyable writeup C. A. I appreciate you being a voice of reason.
Here’s what I focus on when evaluating the recent past:
- Over their last 11 games, the Lakers have played 5 sets of back-to-back games. That plus dodging the snow and the holiday season doesn’t leave much time to iron things out in practice.
- Despite Pau being out early and Kobe’s finger they still have a good W-L record. Kobe’s finger is the one thing that really concerns me.
- Their defensive efficiency is still high. And with Artest & Luke both out that leaves a big hole to fill for now. (Luke would at least be able to fill in.)
- While their offense has multiple problems they can easily be fixed with some extra shooting practice. And when Luke returns maybe he can help remind the 2nd unit that there is more to the offense than passing to Kobe & standing there or jacking up a quick J.
So it will be a rough road this season but it is only December.
PS. No offense but you Bynum traders are out of your mind.
The Lakers "Too big, too strong, too long, too good."
Out of my mind (hardly). Out of patience (yes!!!)
They feed him, they slow down the offense to get him on track and he gives you 10 and 6. Why not trade him. Granted he can be a beast but do you honestly think that he will ever turn into the next Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, or Russell???? I don’t either, so we take the complete package in Bosh add another $5 million on top of the $120 million and call it a day. Add Kapono and Thomas for whatever combination of Farmar, Sasha, Morrison an cash/draft picks someone will take and be done with it.
If you think that's a good trade for both teams
that Toronto would be interested in, by all means call Collangelo and start making it happen.
Uh, if you weren't watching the game last night
The inability of our perimeter players to feed Bynum the ball was one of the reasons we lost.
And in any case, Colangelo would laugh at your phone call and then tell you to screw off.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
You make my point more than you know
Attempting to pass the ball into Bynum to get him started slows down the offense, interupts the flow of the game, and creates too many turnovers. Gasol is much better down low and imagine how good he would be with Bosh hitting outside shots and freeing him from double teams. It would also open the other side of the court for drives and dives from other players. It won’t happen because of Bynum’s size which works against Boston, Shaq, the Lopez Boys, Greg Oden and the like.
Just saw the January schedule.
That’s gonna be brutal. To top it off a few games on the trip are back to backs, and most are a day or so apart.
Well according to Hollinger, via his chat,
he thinks that our bench isnt gonna get it done againt whoever comes out in the East in the Finals. He thinks it’ll be enough to get through the West but not enough to beat the East team. I have to agree. The bench is flat out BAD and it isnt gonna get better, period. We should sign Stackhouse or make a trade for somebody. If you guys still want this team to have the ultimate goal of winning a title again, or the season is a bust, then I dont know how you cant agree with this. The shit bench wont show its flaws until the Finals, when its too late….
don't worry Luke will be back
Luke will be our savior.
The Return of the Jedi!
Luke will stabilize the bench and bring balance to the force.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Dec 29, 2009 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
Except that the playoffs is when a bad bench matters less.
With plenty of time in between games, you can easily make it through the playoffs with a 7 or 8 man rotation.
I’m not saying the Lakers will definitely win the Finals, but I don’t think the superior benches of the other teams will be the defining factor of our playoff series.
hmmm, we'll see
Because it was the Celtics bench that outperformed the Lakers bench in the 08 Finals, if you remember. It wasnt the only reason they won the series, but it was probably the biggest reason. They had House, Posey, Brown, Powe, tons of guys who KNEW THEIR ROLE and played defense first. Actually, I think thats the bench should be thinking of first: DEFENSE. Since they just arent very good offensively, they should say to themselves that they need to play defense first and rebound the ball. I guarentee if they did those things, you wont see the other team extending leads like we’ve seen countless times.
by desecrator09 on Dec 29, 2009 11:54 AM PST up reply actions
i think signing jason kapono would be a good idea perhaps?
"Just by the aura of D.J. Mbenga being there, the shot missed."
Not a free agent
And in a system starved for outside shooting, Philly isn’t giving him up for nothing.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
It should be mentioned...
I feel that it should be mentioned that in both of the games between the Suns and Lakers that were in LA, the Suns were on the second game of a back-to-back. Back-to-back games aren’t easy even when both are at home, but when you have to travel for the second, it makes it that much more difficult. So that should really be considered when talking about those two games. In this game, neither team was coming off of a game the night before, and the result was Phoenix winning comfortably. I like the Suns a lot, and I know they don’t have a shot at a championship this year, but it still needs to be said that when they were badly beaten by the Lakers in LA, both times were the end of back-to-back games.
I think this is the first comment you've made on the blog that didn't
talk about how the Lakers always get favorable officiating.
Yes, both victories against the Suns came at the tail end of back to backs. Last night’s game was the Lakers’ 3rd in 4 nights, all 3 in different cities, so I’m not sure that you can claim no ill effect on the Lakers side either, but it really doesn’t matter I guess.
Really, I just wanted to congratulate you on making a point besides the NBA being rigged.
"It should be mentioned... It still needs to be said...."
If you go back to SS&R’s coverage of the two Lakers-Suns games at Staples, you’ll find that we mention over and over again how the Suns were playing the second half of back-to-backs.
by DexterFishmore on Dec 29, 2009 2:00 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
amen bro...
Lakers, Hurricanes, Dolphins
Imagine my sports world in the 80's. They're almost back, 'ceptin the Dolphins
by LAKESHOWrydamee on Dec 29, 2009 2:01 PM PST up reply actions
Kapono = no
No defense from Kapono. I don’t like that player. You’re just replacing Sasha or Brown with another chucker.
With this current line-up and substitutions, PJ needs to stop running the triangle with 3+ perimeter players (Farmar, Brown, Sasha, Ammo, and Powell). Let Farmar and Brown drive to the hoop to create spacing. Have Farmar, Brown, Sasha, or Ammo move to the open spaces on the floor. They can go to the post, but Phoenix caught on fast and double-teamed Pau or Bynum quickly. This cannot consistently be option #1!!
The 2nd unit defense needs to switch from a SSZ to a soft zone +1 in the box. There will be no weak side help from Ammo or Powell as these guys aren’t known for there defensive prowesses. Leave Bynum/Pau to guard the paint and have the opposing team try and break down a soft zone or shoot over it. This also gives the Lakers an advantage on the rebounding edge too.
by 81 Witness on Dec 29, 2009 1:15 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
I rec'd this post simply because of the intelligent content
I actually disagree with a lot of what you are saying, but appreciate the analysis.
Regarding the quick double in the post, that is absolutely what should be option #1. Pau and Bynum should be getting the ball every time down with the 2nd unit, and when that double comes, the ball movement needs to be there. That will open up the offense more successfully than a Farmar or Brown drive. Of course, the other issue is that the other team collapsing the paint requires us to punish them by hitting open 3’s, and that is something we are struggling with right now. But, if we can’t get that turned around or pick someone up to address it, we’re pretty much screwed, because its a crux of our offense.
The defensive part sounds good, though I would say that Phoenix would still have murdered us last night with that defensive strategy, as they would have been very succcessful shooting over the zone. And the zone weakens rebounding, not strengthens. But I completely agree that the SSZ shouldn’t be run unless you have the personel to run it.
Comment good, still no solution provided
Here is the problem with dumping into the post with bench personnel as option 1. You’re still running a version of the triangle. Unless Bynum/Pau establishes deep inside position, there is no open space, and nobody consistently will fill the lane on the double-team due to lack of size and lack of post strength (i.e. no LO, no Artest, no Luke to post).
Even if Bynum/Pau tosses to the open shooter it creates more problems. The shooter doesn’t have size, 2+ defenders are still dogging the perimeter, and the double-teamer doesn’t have to run far to close out the shooter (no deep penetration). This is the triangle offense, it won’t work with this personnel. Having Farmar/Brown create penetration will create the defense to collapse the paint, leaving a mid-range jumper for Powell or an open 3 for Ammo.
Good outside shooting will bury any team. Good offense always beats good defense. The SSZ is designed to stop penetration. Fisher and Farmar are supposed to give up the baseline (not the middle) and force the penetrator into the teeth of the defense. As you agreed with me, Powell, Morrison, and Sasha have no teeth. As you saw last night, Brooks killed us on the boards. By using a soft zone, the short Laker defenders can at a minimum box out space (preferably the path between the offensive player and the bucket). This increases their odds of the Defensive rebound. The point I am trying to make is that we’re boned against good outside shooting whether we use the SSZ or the soft zone +1. Soft zone +1 fits a smaller unit better: closes off passing lanes and provides better rebounding odds.
Two conversations, two verdicts
I’m with you on defense. The issue with the zone and rebounding is that you don’t have a man to box out once the shot goes up, so it can get confusing. But, since our bench struggles to box out anyway, its pretty much a moot point, so I’m all for the zone idea, at least intermittently.
On offense, here’s the part I have a problem with:
Unless Bynum/Pau establishes deep inside position, there is no open space
You use “Unless” to signify this like it either happens or it doesn’t. When I say the team should continue to run through the post, I say it because the team should be working to make sure Bynum/Pau always do establish deep inside position. Instead of changing the entire way the offense is run just because deep position isn’t happening, I think the team needs to do a better job of establishing our post presences. What I’d really like to see is for our bigs to start flashing from the weak to the strong side deep in the lane, like Shaq used to do. I know neither has the strength that Shaq did, but Bynum should be able to pull it off, and Gasol should be able to use quickness instead of strength to pull off the same move. But this never happens. Either player goes to his place on the block and just stands there waiting for an entry, regardless of whether their position is good or not. I agree with you that if the penetration into the post isn’t deep, the offense won’t be successful. But I disagree with the idea that we should change the offense because of it. That’s like saying Kobe can’t shoot contested 20 footers, so Kobe shouldn’t shoot at all. Instead, Kobe should work for better shots than contested 20 footers, and keep shooting those better shots.
by C.A. Clark on Dec 29, 2009 3:02 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Good point
Forgot about the weak strong flash from Shaq. Bynum doesn’t watch film. I remember when Kareem sat him down and showed him old film. Bynum’s response, was “you can block shots like that?”
Soo, i guess we have blind fans here...
All this verbal protecting and making excuses for AB is turning my stomach. Lets not call it just a game, as we have for the last four games. its a problem that isn’t going away. i mean, how many times does AB get completely FUK’D by nash and amare??? AB got burned at least 12 times, i said AT LEAST 12 times, by trying to stay with nash after the PnR was setup. like, how do you forget, over and over, the same play will happen to you if you allow it to? it was pass after pass of AB completely leaving amare to help with nash, even though nash defender was still with him. we got raped in the paint. it is painfully clear that AB is not a cerebral player. you have to be a fuk’n idiot not to change your method after the second time you get dunked on with a pick n roll and you’re the center. that used to mean you OWN the paint. i can’t get the sight of AB falling down after amare dunked on him out of my head. AB was desperately grasping for the arm and amare snatches away from him. it only gets worse from here. remember the hope we had in elden cambell and kwame? lets not be idiots again. AB’s problem is terminal.
Lakers, Hurricanes, Dolphins
Imagine my sports world in the 80's. They're almost back, 'ceptin the Dolphins
by LAKESHOWrydamee on Dec 29, 2009 1:42 PM PST reply actions
bynum is one of the worse pick and roll dfenders i have ever seen
it takes him an hour to get back to his man..
THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!
Lets trade Bynum for Nash, Kobe for Tmac, Ron for Sheed, Lamar for JR Ryder. I mean why not? We lost TWO OUT OF THREE, the world must be over.
You guys are frickin ridiculous. There is absolutely no need to panic. Bynum is slumping, big deal. You guys bring it 100% ever day at work? NOPE. So give the guy a break. He’ll figure it out. Hell, as long as he doesn’t miss half the season, it will be a successful one for Bynum.
Bynum will go for 25,12, and 4 blocks tonight…you heard it hear first.
Lamar = Laker for Life...Go Pads...Go Bolts
by mrbarneydangles on Dec 29, 2009 2:06 PM PST reply actions
actually I do bring it 100% to work everyday
I think panicking and throwing out trade scenarios is one thing but I have actually seen panicking from other sites and this isn’t it. Personally speaking, it is natural to show some frustration after losing to the Suns and Cavs. But I can bet you that almost everyone here truly does believe the Lakers are the best team in the league. We are just venting…lol or maybe i’m the only one.
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 29, 2009 2:35 PM PST up reply actions
actually I do bring it 100% to work everyday
That’s a bald-faced lie. You can fess up. We won’t tell.
I know I was laughing when I typed it
don’t know how to translate my sarcasm onto my posts.. : )
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 29, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
you damn skippy...
Lakers, Hurricanes, Dolphins
Imagine my sports world in the 80's. They're almost back, 'ceptin the Dolphins
by LAKESHOWrydamee on Dec 29, 2009 2:59 PM PST up reply actions
maybe we just expect more
from a 5 year vet that gangstered DR. Buss out of 12mil a year. how ’bout you getting demoted at work for underperforming?
Lakers, Hurricanes, Dolphins
Imagine my sports world in the 80's. They're almost back, 'ceptin the Dolphins
by LAKESHOWrydamee on Dec 29, 2009 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
This deserves a rec
because it is so true. Where is David Lee at now to defend the reasoning as to why Bynum deserved his contract?
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 29, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
I’m glad you’re here. We need more people like you to talk some sense.
The Lakers "Too big, too strong, too long, too good."
thnx
j/k..i know you meant Lakeshowrydamee. Wow! and I thought my name was long. That was a pretty good post. I never thought of what he said.
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 29, 2009 5:35 PM PST up reply actions
i love this team we call Lakers...
and i despise any germ that leeches off of that carrier. i’ve given this guy nothing but half filled as opposed to half empty glasses from day one. but to see a lack of ‘FIRE’ in his eyes when he plays stirs my soul in the wrong way. i remember elden from start to finish in LA as well as kwame. i hated those cats with a passion ‘cause of the lack of fire. AB doesn’t seem to care about being a Laker legend, so fuk him while he impedes on our process of progress. only #24 has a no trade clause so save the rhetoric i’m sure to receive.
Lakers, Hurricanes, Dolphins
Imagine my sports world in the 80's. They're almost back, 'ceptin the Dolphins
by LAKESHOWrydamee on Dec 29, 2009 6:43 PM PST up reply actions
I think that many people are as angry and as passionate as you are.
You should seriously read what busboys4me wrote above. Just a suggestion. I think that his comments on Elden and Kwame just like you did are similar. Just curious though, what did you mean by saying:
and i despise any germ that leeches off of that carrier
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 29, 2009 6:54 PM PST up reply actions
pure science baby...
the body(Lakers) carries many germs and bacteria. some are beneficial and help the body, others just exist and leech to stay alive. AB is a non-beneficial germ IMPEDING ON THE PROCESS OF PROGRESS…
Lakers, Hurricanes, Dolphins
Imagine my sports world in the 80's. They're almost back, 'ceptin the Dolphins
by LAKESHOWrydamee on Dec 30, 2009 2:32 PM PST up reply actions
awesome
I would of never figured that out on my own.. Next time a footnote please.. j/k
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 30, 2009 6:11 PM PST up reply actions
David Lee's comments
"The ball is in their court," Lee said. "They’ve got a decision to make. The question is whether they believe in him the way I believe in him. It’s their decision to make if they want him there for the future."
"I don’t think the Lakers have anything to worry about with Andrew’s physical condition," Lee said. "The only thing is he wants to stay in the purple and gold. It’s in their court."
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 29, 2009 5:48 PM PST reply actions
while i agree with you saying there is no need to panic, i still think every game counts when we are battling the celtics (and maybe the cavs and magic) for homecourt advantage in the nba finals. if we have to travel to boston then i am not sure if we can win. but if we have homecourt (which is what i am expecting) then i predict we will win the title again.
lakers????
the question now that kobe’s injuries are piling up?what lakers bench will do?kobe can not carry it alone all the time not with those injuries…
where the hell is the game thread??
dont be slackin now Dex
i was just thinking the same thing he is probably asleep
wouldn’t it be funny if he forgot the Lakers played today.
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 29, 2009 7:44 PM PST up reply actions
I made a cheap attempt and posted it as a fanpost
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 29, 2009 7:50 PM PST up reply actions
That'll work...
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2009/12/29/1224785/lakers-vs-warriors-game-thread
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
We'll just use this as the temporary game thread
I suppose.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
Or not
Everyone head here for the moment:
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2009/12/29/1224785/lakers-vs-warriors-game-thread
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
And ignore this
Refer to timbo’s post below.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
I put up an Open Thread
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2009/12/29/1224788/lakers-warriors-open-thread
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
the link doesn't work
HELP!
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 29, 2009 7:57 PM PST up reply actions
I sent it to 404 land... Correct URL for the game thread is:
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2009/12/29/1224785/lakers-vs-warriors-game-thread
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Panic over one loss to Phoenix........
……..Uhhhh, not really.
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
by weazel on Dec 29, 2009 8:04 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Yeah I wouldn't panic over that lose
There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.
Umm so what have I missed
Lakers D looks bad from a score stand point
There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.
Sasha is hitting shots
I like
There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.
I just figured that we are paying bynum 13.5 MM per year!?!?! what the hell is Mitch Kupchak smoking? is he crazy? what the hell is he thinking? paying that much to ANDREW BYNUM!!?? tell me what do you guys think? is he worth 13.5MM per year?
The PuertoRican Kid
by Kobe:The Legend on Dec 30, 2009 12:53 AM PST reply actions
at the time last year
andrew was balling and mitch thought it would be worth while to have him sign a new contract rather then waiting till the off season and possibly having to shell out more money in order to keep him a laker.
"Just by the aura of D.J. Mbenga being there, the shot missed."
even though he's not doing much right now
given the potential he’s shown, i’m sure there are a lot of teams willing to shell out that much for drew in the off season.
I do think it's a bit much and like Shaqfor3 said
it was a good gamble because the Lakers could have ended up paying more than that if he played well. But if we are going to tear down contracts then how about Sasha and Walton’s contracts. At least Walton runs the triangle pretty decently but Sasha is just good for over reacting.
"Michael Jordan once said the quality Bryant possessed that reminded him most of himself was the desire to distance himself from contemporaries."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 30, 2009 6:46 AM PST up reply actions
Lakers need a change
Hey this is my first post and i wanted to start of with this thread, so what i think the Lakers need is a line up change.
My starting line up would be as followed: Fisher(1) Kobe(2) Artest(3) (when he comes back) Lamar(4) Pau(5)
I think that with this line up the Lakers would be more dominate than they are now for a few reasons.
1) With this line up on the floor to start the game, would allow pau and kobe to beat up any team on the inside. There is no 2 guard in the NBA that can guard kobe in the post and as we saw at the beginning of the season Kobe in the post = trouble for any team mainly because he would almost always command a double allowing him to either break that double or pass (something he’s very good at) the ball out to open shooters like Artest, Fisher and Lamar. This would give Lamar, fisher and Artest more open touches from the perimeter, plus with Pau on the other side of the floor the Center would pay every time he tried to slide over.
2)Also Pau would have his own side of the floor to work with and kobe would would force his defender to stay honest, again giving open looks at the basket for Artes, Fisher and Lamar. now dont think just because Lamar is outside he cant still cut to the basket beating his defender all the time giving him better rebound position and allowing him to be the recipient of passes from either Kobe or Pau.
3)Also this makes the Lakers starting 5 much faster up and down the court without losing to much in the way of size, and Lamar and Pau along with Artest are very good rebounders. This gives the Lakers the ability to run with smaller teams and still beat them up on the inside, not to mention with the defensive scheme the Lakers like to run meaning a switch/help style defense they could switch just about anything.
4)Now as for the bench, Bynum coming off the bench gives the bench a huge boost and allows Bynum to recover some of his lost swagger(due to the fact that he still has trouble playing with Pau) . As a 6th man working with the second unit he can command the ball alot more and it will free up open shoots for guys like Farmar, Brown and Sasha something they all need, without disrupting the flow of there game by force feeding him just to get him off.
5)Bynum will command a double from most if not all NBA second units because theres no second unit center that i can think of that Bynum could not destroy in the post. This would also allow Brown and Farmar to slash/cut and drive to the basket.
6)With the return of Artest and Luke this would allow the starters to be able to run against any team that wants to run and beat up all teams with there post game. now of coarse Kobe would not have to be in the paint all game but as we have seen early this season(the games before Pau came back) when Kobe is down in the paint there is not much the other team can do to stop him. he will back down and shoot over any 2 guard. and make the right pass out of any foolish double that will come. Plus with Pau doing his thing on the other side of the court the Lakers are covered from every angle on offense(now Fish, Lamar and Artest just have to make shots).
This would not be and should not be a permanent thing but it could be done at least until Late Feb and then you can start working Bynum back into the starting line up for the playoffs.
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