Even More Kobe vs. Lebron
by Gils_Keloids on Dec 10, 2009 5:24 PM PST
68 comments
I didn't bring it up, the Cleveland Plain Dealer did.
I haven't totally tired of this subject, especially with the playoffs so far off, and the Lakers with few problems to complain about.
The Plain Dealer sports writers wrote a book called LeBron James: The Making of an MVP, and they published an excerpt of their book here.
Inevitably, a book like this must make a comparison to Kobe, and as you can guess by the title, the authors found it justified to shit on Kobe in order to make Lebron look better in contrast (my bold added):
Why even bring LeBron into this discussion?
Because he won his first MVP award at the age of 24. Most players don't peak until their late 20s. Johnson and Bird were not awarded their first MVPs until they were 27. Jordan? His came at 25.
By the age of 24, LeBron had 24 triple-doubles, with four more in the playoffs, compared to two for Jordan.
What about Kobe Bryant? He has won only one MVP award, that being in 2008 at the age of 29. More importantly, the guy doesn't pass -- a career average of 4.6 assists. Certainly not an embarrassing total, but Jordan is at 5.3. Bird was 6.3 assists from his forward spot. LeBron, by the end of his sixth season had a career average of 6.7 assists.
For Bryant, the numbers remain at 25.1 points, 5.3 rebounds and those 4.6 assists. There is a sense that Bryant often is a "bailout passer," meaning he gives up the ball only when he's in trouble -- being double- or tripled-teamed. Nearly every time he catches the ball, the first thing that crosses his mind is "shoot it."
What makes LeBron different is he can do everything, and is doing it at a younger age than nearly anyone has done it before. He also is doing it at a historic pace.
Like I've said before, I'm only a little bit tired of this conversation, and the scoreboard is so far in Kobe's favor, it's risible, but I think I could talk about this till the cows come home, sit down for dinner, and eat.
I don't like it when people crap on Lebron to make Kobe look good (though I admit I've done it in the past, and I feel dirty afterwards). So I promise to be on better behavior in the future, because I see how pathetic it looks from the other side to put down a great player in order to praise another one.
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Pretty Sad
What depresses me about this is the way they dump on Kobe’s assists as compared to Lebron’s
Most reasonable and knowledgeable basketball minds accept that Lebron’s assist totals are higher than Kobe’s because he dominates the ball so much in the Cav’s offense. The Cavalier offense basically consists of Lebron dribbling and either shooting or kicking to someone for a shot. Kobe plays in the triangle offense, which does not reward any one player with large assist totals but instead spreads assists out. This would be why the Lakers average more assists as a team than the Cavs do.
The sad part is that I think the writers of that article understand this arguement, but they ignore it because it doesn’t fit their Kobe=ball hog story. Pretty sad journalism in my opinion.
Same old, Same old
That entire book/excerpt can probably be summed up as:
LBJ = MVP because Kobe = ballhog.
I think I should be a journalist too.
My favorite part is this line:
There is a sense that Bryant often is a “bailout passer,” meaning he gives up the ball only when he’s in trouble – being double- or tripled-teamed."
Bailout passer! AHAHAHA! Now that’s a new one! Never mind the fact that it’s actually a GOOD thing when Kobe’s triple teamed or doubled team because when he DOES make a “bailout” pass, he happens to pass it to his unfortunate teammate Pau Gasol who is WIDE OPEN because Kobe is triple/doubled teamed, thus giving Pau the unfortunate task of “bailing” Kobe out.
What a disservice to Pau Gasol! That poor Pau Gasol, reduced to taking open shots. What ever will the Lakers do?
And the comparisons of MVP trophies is getting a little overrated. I’m starting to see that it doesn’t really mean much to be an MVP if you don’t win chips as well. Sure, the MVP is a nice shiny hardware and it in some small way, validates a player’s achievements and standard of playing.
I won’t lie it was nice to see Kobe finally win the MVP he’s deserved for so long, but really, at the end of the day, the MVP award ain’t guaranteed to bring you no Larry O’Brien. At the end of a career, it’s the Larry O’Brien that judges a superstar player and places them amongst the elites in history.
Plus, the MVP award is voted by the media (and the media happens to be made up of morons like the guy that wrote that piece of crappy -journalism fawning) …. is it really any wonder why the MVP award’s value has gone down the drain?
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Dec 10, 2009 6:28 PM PST reply actions
Kobe doesnt care about MVP
He cares about the trophy, let lebron have his stats and mvp season. he could have all the mvp’s as long as we get the BIG bling with tha pinky ring (sorry for the poor attempt at a rap career).
Kobe has 4 or 1 championships, depending on how you look at it or whom you talk to. Lebron is great no doubt, but the kobe bashing needs to stop. The book was supposedly written by knowledgeable sports writers, they need to get their head out his bung hole.
" I'm a human, not a sandwich"
by true_lakerfan on Dec 11, 2009 9:54 AM PST up reply actions
Well
he just said it all. But other than that, they’re also comparing a Jordan who played college ball so really he won his first MVP after less years in the league, but they only look at age to play him up. This is just terrible. When you have to market your own player as the best then you know there is a problem.
not to mention they don't account for kobe's first two years in the league
where he played a 6th man off the bench.
in any case, the people who actually go buy the book are probably (hardcore) lebron fans who believe in that crap anyways. so let them do their little fan service thing.
for the rest of us, we know better than to read from those “journalists” again…
they will do anything to keep him there
even if it means false statements
" I'm a human, not a sandwich"
by true_lakerfan on Dec 11, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions
Kneel
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Dec 10, 2009 6:30 PM PST reply actions
Bow down to the true KING!!!
Shaquille O'Neal: "Tell him Shaq doesn’t respond to juvenile delinquents without a college degree. Tell him to get his degree, and we can talk. In the meantime, he should call me Dr. Shaq because I’m working on my PhD." (Referring to 17-year-old rookie Andrew Bynum, who compared himself to Shaq…except that he can make free throws.)
(courtesy of www.shaqquotes.com)
Good boy, now speak!! lol
" I'm a human, not a sandwich"
by true_lakerfan on Dec 11, 2009 9:56 AM PST up reply actions
I will never get tired of this debate.
My favorite class ever involved me having to pick an article from the newspaper and the professor would help me find holes in the writer’s point of view. It just takes one flawed comment to ruin a point of view. There is nothing wrong with hyping up Lebron even if it is done by taking shots at Kobe. What I am interested in is facts:
What makes LeBron different is he can do everything
No he can’t. “Everything” is really broad. Lebron has no midrange game. He has no low-post game (posting up and facing the basket and attacking once you get the ball in the post is not the same thing). He also has no jump shot. By the way, before someone starts bringing up stats about him whether it proves my point or not is not important. I watch the games and I can see that Lebron’s gift is his athleticism and attacking the basket. He is the best in the game at that right now. No one besides wade can attack the basket as good.
and is doing it at a younger age than nearly anyone has done it before. He also is doing it at a historic pace.
John Stockton broke Magic’s assist record to but he would trade all those assists for 1 of Magic’s rings. Players are breaking past player’s records on a yearly basis. Each one is doing it younger and younger. But there is one thing that he has failed to do which is win titles. That is why this game is played. He can break all the individiual records he wants but until he gets that ring it won’t even matter. Hell! he hasn’t even passed Wade in that respect. So before he got that tattoo on his back or he keeps dancing on the sideline he needs to remember that he is going to dance his way to the hall of fame ringless unless he puts the same effort in his jump shot as he does at his dance moves. Kobe has been to the big dance six times in his career and has won it 4 times. So before Lebron is compared to Kobe he first has to add a section titled “Finals” to his resume because Kobe’s is two pages long already.
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 10, 2009 9:43 PM PST reply actions
good points
people look at Lebron’s stats and say he can do everything. Just goes to show stats definitely don’t mean everything
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Lebron has one Finals series on his resume
And that Finals argument is tough for me to swallow, because that is a team accomplishment, only a partial reflection of your skills as a player.
Put it this way, if Kobe never got a good team around him, he would still be just as good a player as he is today with a good team, right? So why should bad or good management within an organization change the quality of a player? It’s one of the most difficult things to separate in basketball, individual skill from team accomplishment. We tend to judge only on team accomplishment, but is that really fair? Probably not, but I think we use it because it’s pretty concrete data. Either your team won or it didn’t. Skills are more subjective to evaluate. I never though Kobe should be judged by awards or team accomplishments, and I won’t change now just because he has those now. I’ve believe he is the best based on the breadth and depth of his skills – his mid-range shot, his outside shooting, ability to read the defense, his anticipation on defense, excellent handles, on and on it goes. He actually had a lot of those skills way back in 2004, it’s just now that he has good players, the team results are different, even if the player is the same.
Lebron has a ton of skills too, some deeper than Kobe, but he does not have the same range of skills as Kobe. If you were a Role-Playing-Gamer back in the day, you would understand that if Kobe’s total skill “points” are 98 out of 100, then Lebron’s are 95 out of 100. But Kobe’s points would be spread out more evenly than Lebron’s, which would be heavy on “strength” and “speed”. And that would mean that Lebron’s weaknesses were weaker than Kobe’s. That’s it. Lebron’s weak points are much weaker than Kobe’s weakest points, so that like in any good video game, if you could find the weak point of the Boss at the end of each stage, you could defeat him.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Dec 10, 2009 11:04 PM PST up reply actions
good point
But, on the other side of that is that when talking about Lebron the only thing that is mentioned is he athleticism and the idea that he makes his teammates better (which is the biggest misconception in the NBA today about him). The best way that I can describe it is that up until this year Kobe has never been given the respect of being a great player because he had never won on his own or led a team. So, if after all these years Kobe was measured on leading a team to a title(s) why not judge Lebron by the same standard. I don’t conveniently measure Kobe on just titles because that is what benefits my point of view. As you pointed out, his Skills asn an individual are far superior than any other player. But there have been a lot of players who have came and gone with great individual talent but what seperates Kobe from Lebron or Kobe from anyone in his generation except for Tim Duncan and Shaq is titles.
I think that ultimately the debate on who is better deals with both individual talent and ultimately how that results in wins in terms of titles. That is it. Kobe has both and he has been dragged through the mud because he had individual talent but couldn’t lead a team to a title or win one without Shaq and just at the mention of a Kobe vs Jordan people would loose their mind but now as of last year people are even considering it. It’s because of the ring. It isn’t fair either to take away from Kobe because the Lakers organization is willing to pay so much money to put great talent around him.
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 11, 2009 6:30 AM PST up reply actions
Unlike a lot of non laker and non kobe fans i actually respect him and his game but i still disagree that hes better that Lebron. You guys keep bringing rings up, you get a ring if you’re on the best team in the nba. You get an MVP if you’re the best player in the nba. Kobe was the best player in the world up until last season. It’s lebrons reign now. Lets argue specifics:
I wont even bother discussing his “no low post game” but “no jump shot”? Seriously? Maybe you’re thinking of about 2006 but now, in 2009 from the three point line Kobe is shooting .328 while lebron is shooting .344 this season. And don’t say hes just gotten lucky, hes attempted nearly twice as many 3’s as kobe, and the more you shoot the harder it is to maintain an average. So if lebron has no outside game, kobe has no outside game.
Yes, Kobe has a better mid range game, i’ll give you that much. But thats it. Thats the only area hes better now than lebron. Lebron is better at penetrating (hes the best in the world at that), hes better at shooting 3’s, hes a better passer and a much better rebounder. And i consider them equals at defending.
Now back to rings, the lakers are the best team in the nba not because of kobe, but because of kobe+gasol+odom+bynum+artest. The cavs will probably finish about 5-10 games behind the lakers after the end of the regular season. Do you really think 5-10 games is the difference between gasol/odom/bynum/artest and 37 yr old shaq/mo/varejao/west? No.
Without Lebron the cavs would be a 15-20 win team. Without kobe the lakers would still be a 50-55 win team. Lebron has a worse supporting cast than Kobe, KG, Dwight and Duncan, yet in spite of that the Cavs are still considered one of the NBA’s elite. Why? Because even though they have the worst supporting cast out of the top 5 teams, they have the best player.
Look at that, i was able to give my side of the argument without tearing down and insulting Kobe which is sadly rare for most people on my side of the debate. I give him credit for leading a team to the championship, i give him credit for being one of the top 10 best players of all time, i give him credit for being one of the top 2 players today. But none of those things make him better than lebron.
by CavsLebronFan on Dec 11, 2009 11:55 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with you on a few points
One – team success is team success – it doesn’t make the lead player on the more successful team better than the lead player on the less successful team. Rings should not be the barometer of what makes one player better than another.
Two – Lebron is a better passer. Kobe’s no slouch, but Lebron makes more spectacular passes.
I don’t agree that Lebron is better at shooting threes. You can’t simply compare 3 pt FG% to determine who is the better shooter, as those are skewed by tons of variables (shot clock time, close out by defense). Just by observation, you can see that Kobe is a more mechanically sound shooter from all distances between 5 and 40 feet.
I think it’s a stretch to say that the Cavs would only win 20 without Lebron, and the Lakers would win 50 without Kobe. But that can neither be proven or disproven.
Again, Kobe’s weakest points are much stronger than Lebron’s weakest points, so that opponents can exploit those weak points easier (this is all relative, obviously Lebron’s weak points are stronger than most any other player’s strong points). Now, exploit may be too strong a word, but opponents can make the most of playing to those disadvantages. Kobe’s game is much more solid across the board, so that you can’t take much away from him without him punishing you. The strategy on Lebron has always been to play the drive, and compromise on guarding the shot so closely. Now Lebron is improving in this facet, but his shot has not reached the level of consistency to demand that opponents pay equal attention to both the drive and the shot.
One example of Kobe’s game being so solid across a range of skills was shown tonight, when Kobe fractured his right index finger. He just moved on and began to use his left hand to be effective. How many players could pretty much lose their right hand and still stay effective?
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Dec 12, 2009 12:23 AM PST up reply actions
Dag Gils took the words right out of my mouth
or beat me to the post but I agree and will piggy back off your comment.
Based on skills CavsLebronFan, Kobe can hit and take any shot he wants to but I can’t say the same for Lebron then on top of that when it comes down to clutch FT’s with the game on the line, I would not want Lebron at the line, as a Cavs fan, I know you’ve seen it time and time again Lebron misses FT’s.
With Lebron’s game, you plan your defense to make him shoot the ball because we all know dude wants to get to the hoop and to me that’s too easy for me(or a coach) to defend against especially if you have a team that can defend, you either make Lebron a scorer or passes but you don’t let him be both. To Lebron’s credit when I watch a Cav’s game he does make 2 or 3 passes I didn’t see coming.
With Kobe’s game, you plan your defense to get the ball out his hands and keep it out of his hands and that is not easy especially with the triangle offense the Lakers run, you know what’s coming on offense but can you stop it, you can see passes coming, you know who’s getting what stats and Kobe can pass the ball just as well as Lebron and as you watch Lakers games over and over as I do, Kobe would be the leader in hockey assist on the Lakers team because it’s mostly his pass that sets up the open man and shot attempt but he doesn’t get those assist. You take away one shot and Kobe will find another way to score and I believe Kobe can get to the hoop anytime he wants to, just as well as Lebron but Kobe love’s to shoot. Kobe’s more of a shooter then driver whereas Lebron in more of a driver then shooter but I would take Kobe overall Skill over Lebron’s athleticism anyday and that what makes Kobe better in my eye’s.
There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.
Gils
already stated some of the things i had in mind (team success vs individuals, range of skills).
just to add on the issue of 3s, the season is still early, so we really don’t know what their season averages will be.
But this really amuses me not end:
But none of those things make him better than lebron.
Because, if he really is better, why do you keep on making Kobe as the measuring stick?
The book is about Lebron, why bash Kobe in there in order to support the authors’ arguments?
Has Kobe ever proclaimed himself as The Chosen One, or the King of NBA? or the greatest basketball player ever? or refer to himself in the third person?
Instead what I see are people riled up by what Kobe has accomplished that they can’t get over it. Lebron is a great player, no doubt about it. But to compare him constantly with Kobe without the latter asking for it is a testament to how people see Kobe.
Way to keep it peaceful
Look at that, i was able to give my side of the argument without tearing down and insulting Kobe which is sadly rare for most people on my side of the debate. I give him credit for leading a team to the championship, i give him credit for being one of the top 10 best players of all time, i give him credit for being one of the top 2 players today. But none of those things make him better than lebron.
I’m really happy to see this stuff, two rival fans attacking the argument with the proper frame of mind.
Just a couple things to refine what you are saying. If Kobe’s rings can’t be considered, because team success is team success, then punishing Kobe for having a superior supporting cast isn’t really fair either. If you want to keep it individual, keep it individual.
And while it can’t be proven, as Gils has said, 15-20 wins? Do you have any idea how bad that is? Good God man, the Nets will probably end up close to that range. The Cavs may not have the supporting cast that Boston and Orlando and L.A. do, but they’ve got some good players. I think they’d make the playoffs without LeBron in an extremely weak Eastern Conference.
Cavslebronfan welcome
great argument. But there are a couple of things I want to point out.
Let’s forget about rings for a moment then.
I think that you pointed out the three point shooting percentage is the biggest reasons why it is hard for me to take that strongly. You can ask anyone in the NBA (except a Cavs fan) who is a better shooter from the three point line without looking at stats and people will tell you Kobe is. I doubt that relying so much on a .016 difference in % is not something that you can rely on to say Lebron is a better three point shooter. Are YOU serious?
One thing that you also have to take into consideration in regards of teams being elite the Cavs play in the east. That has a lot more to do with the Cavs being considered an elite team. Yes the Magic and Celtics are in your conference but the rest of the Conference is not as competitive as it is in the West. I doubt that the Cavs would be even in the top 5 out West. That has nothing to do with Lebron.
Now ultimately we will never agree. But putting rings aside, and if we are talking about who is better Lebron isnt’ even close to Kobe. But I have to tell you, us using the “rings” argument is similar to you using the “stats” argument. When you look at the game of basketball you can see that Kobe’s game is more polished. The main reason why the Cavs lost to the Magic is because Lebron’s lack of midrange game. You can play it down and say that it is Kobe’s biggest difference when being compared to Lebron. But that is a HUGE aspect of the game. By Kobe’s 3rd year I saw a new player and you can obviously see the improvement in his game. He wasn’t given the freakish athleticism that Lebron has. But, in Lebrons’ 6-7 years in the league he has not improved his midrange game at all. All that flashyness and passing is great for the regular season but in the playoffs when the game slows down and it becomes a half court game it becomes Lebron’s kryptonite. So no, he isn’t better because he is missing the whole section of his game and it is a big aspect. You can’t conveniently disregard it. After all you admited it yourself:
Yes, Kobe has a better mid range game
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 12, 2009 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
I HATE
the Lebron has no team argument. Do you realize that you have two former all-star centers on your team? Even if they are slow, they’re still two former all-stars. And Z can still shoot, Shaq hasn’t been on, but you know you didn’t get him for the regular season. Mo Williams who was a stud in Milwaukee. I heard all last year about how good a defender West is. What your team is missing is a coach to demand actual excellence from these players night in night out? That is your biggest problem, not the supporting cast. If you actually had a system to play in instead of the Lebron passes to Lebron offense you could see how much better your team is. Defensively, you’re not only good because of Lebron, you’re good because your whole team is good on defense. Please stop with the my team sucks woe is me argument. Get rid of Mike Brown, get an actual coach and ya’ll would be an even better team since Lebron wouldn’t have to dominate the ball as much.
To your other points, yes Lebron makes flashier passes more often, but you can go to a highlight reel of both players and see just as many flashy passes. More assists does not equal better passer.
You don’t address post game because Lebron has none. Evidenced by how the smaller Gerald Wallace dismantled him down low.
Jump shot? Well when you actually compare shooting anywhere not actually at the rim, Lebron’s shooting mark plummets to the mid-high 30s. Three-pt shooting is relative cuz Kobe hasn’t even been trying to shoot threes really this year. True it is not his strongest shooting spot, but should he choose to shoot there instead of last minute heaves I think he’d be just as good if not better. But of course no way to test that.
Defense? Check out 82games’ defensive opponent production breakdown. While Lebron consistently outperforms opponents, they shoot an eFG% of 45% at the SF position and over 50% at the PF position. Thats not bad. Kobe on the other hand holds his opponents at the SF and the SG position below an eFG% of 45% as low as 41%. Since stats are something everyone loves to look at in this argument. I think this paints a picture for a better idea of where they are as defenders. Personally, I know that Kobe is a better onball defender for longer. But I also know that because of his athleticism, Lebron is better asset as on offball defender as shown last night when he came and blocked Roy’s shot. So really this argument still depends on what you’re looking at.
Overall, yesterday pretty much summed it up for me. As someone else said how many players do you know injure their shooting hand and then just switch to their offhand as they play. So there you have it. An argument without a conversation about rings.
Get rid of Mike Brown, get an actual coach and ya’ll would be an even better team since Lebron wouldn’t have to dominate the ball as much.
I agree. his “offense” is complete joke
thats why it will never win the big games vs elite teams
though it seems unlikely he might get the boot any time soon
since he got coach of the year…which makes many people falsely think hes as good as the top coaches in this league such as phil, stan van, and doc rivers.
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
You get an MVP if you’re the best player in the nba
You don’t. Had Kobe been the “best player in the world up until last season,” he would have had more than one MVP trophy.
Also, LeBron is not a better three point shooter than Kobe. That’s ridiculous.
I don’t know why people tear Kobe down for having a good supporting cast. Nobody discredits Jordan for his supporting cast (the 94 Bulls won 55 games without him) or Magic’s supporting cast (2 HoF, 2 number 1 picks) or Bird’s supporting cast (arguably the greatest front court in history). Using this argument, Hakeem and Duncan are the best players in history. But for LeBron to even be mentioned among those two, he’s still got to lead his team to the championship.
Lebron is a better 3 point shooter than Kobe?
Come on man. First of all Kobe started this season about 1 for 16 on threes (I am exagerrating, but it was pitiful) and he has been improving his percentage ever since. He will be ahead of Lebron soon. Second are you really using 20 games out of 6 years to make a point? So Kobe has been a better 3 point shooter since Lebron was in Jr. High School but for 20 games in 1 season he is slightly ahead and all of the sudden the argument is over and Lebron is better? Really.
You also completely neglected free throw shooting and glossed over defense. Kobe is a much better free throw shooter and much better defender. Yes Lebron has improved his defense and makes the “spectacular” break away block, but that doesn’t make him a better defender. It’s not close.
So in reality Kobe is better in the post, better in midrange, better at 3’s, better at the free throw line, and a better defender. What he isn’t is 6’-8" and 260 lbs. Kobe plays with better players (as you mentioned) which takes away from his stats as well. He plays in the triangle offense which limits touches and assist opportunities. If you notice, the Lakers are usually one of the top assist teams each year without any one player getting very many. Trust me Chris Paul wouldn’t get more than 8 per game in the Triangle.
And all of this is without even including the 4 titles, 81 points, etc.
Lebron may be more “dominant” like Shaq or Wilt, but better? No. Not by a long shot.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
by pslakerfan on Dec 12, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
i'm glad i'm a lakers fan..
Cause if I wasn’t I couldn’t argue or wouldn’t have a come back at all for the following:
Kobe plays with better players (as you mentioned) which takes away from his stats as well. He plays in the triangle offense which limits touches and assist opportunities. If you notice, the Lakers are usually one of the top assist teams each year without any one player getting very many. Trust me Chris Paul wouldn’t get more than 8 per game in the Triangle.
who could argue with those facts?
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 12, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions
This reply went to PS because he was the last one, but it applies for all
And I’m not trying to shut the argument down by any means.
But if somebody’s already made the same point that you want to make, don’t make it again unless you’ve got something to add. Don’t need to run the poor guy off by saying the same thing 4 different ways.
Everyone managing this site does a great job of making sure that the quality of the conversations are at a certain level. But honestly, that is kinda of hard not to do. I mean as far as saying the same thing 4 different ways. I think me specifically, I just am repeating the same thing that everyone else is saying but in a different way. I do that all the time on this site. I’m not sure how I can’t do that. Especially when someone is talking about a topic like Kobe vs Lebron the same things and aspects have been repeated so many times on this site that the point of view of a Lakers or Cavs fans are so predictable but fun. And to quote Gils:
I haven’t totally tired of this subject
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 12, 2009 3:31 PM PST up reply actions
I shouldn’t have mentioned his three point shooting, but that was hard to ignore. To say something bold like that you have to expect a reaction. At the very least, it helps bring to attention the points he might want to clarify.
But anyway, there aren’t enough good things said about LeBron here to make this an actual argument. Remember when Kobe led his crap team to the playoffs? The same year he scored 81 against the Raptors? We all pretty much acknowledged that he was the best player in the NBA. That next year, LeBron led an even crappier team to the Finals. Seriously, his number 2 man was Larry Hughes. Career bad-shot-taker/40% shooter Larry Hughes!
No sir
Larry Hughes is an all-star former all-NBA defender. Remember when he was in the backcourt with Arenas, yeah got him an all-star selection and all-NBA defense. Then he went to Cleveland and did the same thing. I don’t know why everyone keeps bringing him up. He is a former all-star as picked by coaches. Eric Snow was still a good defender that year as well. If you wanna say they had no offense I’ll take that argument, but even though Daniel Gibson had his best year that year, and its really th only reason he’s still on the team because like Vujacic he had a good year and they’re hoping he’ll get back to it. also, people overlook Z as if he was that horrible. He avgd 15 and 10 that year, which is good for a C his age that isn’t the focal point of the offense. Not to mention they had Pavlovic who turned out to be a good player, Donyell Marshall contributed, and Drew Gooden. That team wasn’t stacked, but it wasn’t the worst team of this decade to make it to the finals. I’d give that to the 76ers who also had who oh yeah eric snow. If they hadn’t faced an apathetic Pistons team they wouldn’t have made it anywhere.
Now I’ll let you decide whose worse, Smush Parker or Eric Snow, I mean at least Eric Snow could defend consistently. Devean George or Larry Hughes. Chris Mihm/Kwame Brown or Z. Lamar Odom was the only other good player on that team otherwise you had a rookie farmar, 2nd year Walton, rookie Vujacic. Not to mention all the old players like Aaron McKie and Jim Jackson and Medvedenko who were actually options at points during the season. All these young players with no PG that actually cared to learn the offense. The Lakers had no business even flirting with 40 wins with the sheer number of rookies and 8th men on that team, let alone taking Phx to 7 games. And you saw what happened in game 7 if Kobe literally stopped playing at his best and tried to involve them more. I mean freakin’ Aaron McKie was a guard option on the bench.
no sir?
No as in you don’t remember, or no as in you don’t believe me? Either way, Larry Hughes was NEVER an all star, that’s a lie. Saying it three times won’t make it true either. Hughes was also a finger surgery, a team, and two years removed from his All-Defensive status. Not to mention the fact that the last time he actually stayed healthy was in 1999. On top of that, he averaged what, 11 points in the playoffs? He didn’t even play in every game! And even then, are you really saying that Larry Hughes was a better second banana than Lamar Odom? Let’s be real. Odom averaged 19, 11, and 5 that series. Larry Hughes and his contract crippled that team and should have crippled any chance for playoff success.
Aside from that, guys who you say contributed such as Marshall and Pavlovic were all one dimensional players. Donyell Marshall shot threes and that’s it. And while you argue Pavlovic turned out to be a good player, so did Bynum, Also, what about Medvedenko? He played in 2 games for a total of 6 minutes. You’re really going to use this as an argument that Kobe’s 2006 team was worse? I think I’ll just stop because I think there are much better arguments out there.
Lets be real then man
I’ll refine my argument. Lebron was sucking it up during that Pistons series before his 48 pt game, which won game 5 not game 6 the deciding game. Game 6 he proceeded to put up a lame 20 pts on 27% shooting with the help of 19 FTs and if it hadn’t been for daniel gibson and that huge FT disparity they would’ve been royally dismissed that game. Lebron had 3 games in that series where he was playing garbage. It doesn’t matter how many asts he gets because they lived and died by his shooting. When he shot better than 50% they won every game in the playoffs regardless of the number of points. When he shot less than that it was a crap shoot no matter how many asts he had. He had 10 asts in a game where they lost, but he shot under 40%. He had 11 asts in a game they won, and he shot above 50%. I’m just saying you can blind yourself if you want to about the quality of the team, but they didn’t win 12 of those 16 games because he had 6 where he shot above 50%.
On to team comparison, I never said Hughes was Odom. I said he wasn’t as bad as people make him out to be. the fact he was overpayed had nothing to do with it. My memory slipped up on me, he wasn’t an all-star, my bad. Oh and he missed all of two games in your playoff run, so yeah I think he played. but if you’re trying to tell me he had nothing to do with their defense you’re wrong. They were top 5 in defensive rating and in opponents ppg. I gave you their offense was horrible, but they had a great defensive team and that wasn’t just because Lebron was a wonderful defender cuz he definitely wasn’t back then. Out of 16 games in the playoffs, Lebron had 10 of them where he shot under 40%. Sounds like he’s carrying the team to me, and that number doesn’t include the finals where it would take it to 13 games, because one game he shot 42%, YAY!!!
So ur team won 12/20 games in the playoffs. out of 20 games Lebron shot well in 7 of them, I’ll give you the 42% game, and your team won 12 games. Maybe I’m missing a disconnect, but doesn’t Lebron carry this team. Shouldn’t he be playing better than 20 shots a game at 42% for him to be carrying a team. It wasn’t the offense that got your team that far. It was the defense, something the Lakers lacked. Which is why they had no business taking Phx to 7 games or winning 45 games. Like I said before youre team was better than you all realized. Just because they had a horrible offense, thanks to Mr. Brown, doesn’t mean they sucked. They were a good defensive squad with a good frontcourt, something else the Lakers lacked. Is that a better argument for you? I mean thats just the playoffs.
I’ll try to break it down as best I can.
First, his 48 point game was amazing and probably one of the best playoff games anyone’s ever had in history. Not only did he score the team’s last 25 points, he won the game and eventually the series. No amount of discredit to his shooting and free throws will say otherwise. As a dedicated Kobe follower, you should know that getting to the line is a very important part of a player’s offense. So I don’t know what you’re aiming at there.
You claim that the team lived and died by his shooting, and that it doesn’t matter how many assists he got. Haha, it does matter, and the team did live and die by LeBron James. But that was my original point, that he took that Cleveland team by himself to the finals just like Kobe did against Phoenix. Also, your reason for his assists not mattering is flawed. I don’t even know how to address it because either I can’t read or you’re not being clear.
Onto the team comparison, well, I think you said that LeBron has to shoot better than 42% in order for it to be considered carrying a team. I disagree. LeBron James was clearly the leader of that team, and although the Cavs weren’t an offensively gifted group, of the little offense they did have, it pretty much all came from James.
Lastly, you did not say Hughes was Odom. But you did call him an all star (I’m still laughing) while conveniently not mentioning the fact that Odom was the much better player that Phoenix series. And you seem to contradict yourself when you claim how good (sorry, consistent) of a defender an aging Cavalier Eric Snow was, yet, on your “worst team ever in the Finals” you had a much younger, much better Eric Snow defending, as well as a much better defensive center in Mutumbo. After all, defense is what you claim the Cavs derive their strength from, right? Do you know who else was top 5 in defensive rating? Your 2001 Philadelphia 76ers.
But we’re drifting. The real topic is LeBron vs. Kobe, and the bottom line is, well there is none. I just wanted someone else to be say something Pro-LeBron here. And here’s something else: LeBron was compared to both Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan as a young kid coming out of high school. Not only has he exceeded those kinds of expectations, he’s also gotten better every year. The gap, if there is any, between Kobe and LeBron as players (right now, their effectiveness on the court), is disappearing.
Man
Firstly, I never said his 48-pt game wasn’t good, I said he was sucking up shots before that as he was shooting below 40% on the series. I then further stated that he shot 42% shooting 20 shots a game during the entire playoffs. If you think Kobe could’ve gotten that team through the Western Conference shooting 42% with 20 shots a game you’re out of your mind.
Secondly, I said that my memory failed me on the Larry Hughes thing. Keep laughing, I admitted I was wrong. Sorry if I don’t look everything up before I write down my thoughts. Now I know that I have to do that with you I shall.
Thirdly, I recognize that the Sixers had a great defense, but their gifted defenders had not a lick of offense. Iverson could’ve had 10 asts a game and it wouldn’t have mattered unless he scored at least 30 ppg. Witness that one of his lowest recorded ast averages was that year. And Z made up for the defense he gave up to Mutombo by actually being able to shoot and post-up other players.
Fourth, Odom doesn’t make up for the bursts of offense that the rest of them could not muster. Bron had a much better offensive center than freakin Kwame Brown, Hughes and Gibson were much better than Farmar and Parker and Vujacic by that point, and Pavlovic shrank in the playoffs, but was good throughout that season shooting 41% from 3 so he’s about even with Devean George. Even Varejao was better off the bench than freakin Brian Cook. And he had Drew Gooden a solid 4, who is a better matchup against the down-low bigs than the Lakers had with Odom, who has the skillset of a SF, but the height of a PF. Don’t get me wrong Odom was good, but the Cavs had the better overall team, IMO.
Fifth, I said the defense was key. You had a better defensive team. How does that not click with you. Great defense with a mediocre to average offense gives you the same chance to win as an all offense team. The Spurs whooped the Suns every year with a much worse offense. And when your team faces a team like say the Pistons who were known for defense, then you’re their equal, but I’m pretty sure if you had faced the Ben Wallace Pistons that series would’ve been more like the way the finals against the Spurs.
Sixth, asts are overrated. I would go into it, but I’ll save that for a different fanpost. Too much to say about it.
Seventh, yes Lebron was the leader of the offense, but he is not Steve Nash at the behest of a great offense. If his team really sucked He couldn’t just facilitate the offense and expect them do well. His teammates have to be scoring well for him to be having an off night and the team is still doing well. Its a testament to the fact that he did not have to carry the offensive burden at all times. We all know scorers get all the glory, thats why everyone remembers the 48-pt game there instead of the 3-11 game that followed it. My point is that his team was good enough to withstand poor shooting nights from him and still win. The testament people always use is that he always has to do everything, but he didn’t always have to score. I was just pointing that out. They were playing and shooting well even without his offensive production. He didn’t lead them necessarily because had he scored more efficiently they would’ve beaten the Pistons more handily. Stlll wouldn’t have beat the Spurs that year, but it would’ve definitely helped. Playing well in spite of a bad night from a superstar shows that a team isn’t dependent on them.
Lastly, of course the gap btwn Kobe and Bron is closing, but you’re talking like he’s better already. He isn’t and his teams have been better than people give them credit. And if he played more like Magic and just picked his spots to shoot instead of trying to always be the center of the offense the Cavs would be better for it this year. Of course this was not true in 06, but with the team he has now, settling for an efficient 23 and 12 would be better than his 30 and 7. As far as Jordan, there are so many subtleties to Jordan’s game that Bron doesn’t have and there are some major things Bron doesn’t have now, let alone back then. I’m not even gonna get started on his skillset as it has already been addressed many times.
Sorry for the length, been writing papers and taking finals, brevity isn’t an option on such things.
P.S. I find it funny that the Lakers 2000 west finals is scrutinized for ft disparity, but this 06 cavs east finals saw two players have more fts than the entire pistons team and overall over 20 more fts, but no one screams conspiracy. Could care less about conspiracy, but I just find the bias against the Lakers funny.
P.S.S. This is strictly my opinion. We obviously disagree, but then again I never give Lebron more credit than he deserves unlike many folks. So if that makes me seem biased, so be it. So yes, agree to disagree on his team’s abilities.
First of all, sir/man, I never said or talk like LeBron was the better player. Don’t put words into my mouth. But I am pointing out that for all of LeBron’s shortcomings, there are many strengths that Silver Screen and Roll goers fail to mention. Likewise, there are many faults in Kobe’s game and career that aren’t brought up. You can interpret my opinions as fluffing up LeBron’s accomplishments (as if that doesn’t happen enough), but you’d be wrong about both my opinions and my intentions.
Secondly, you may not give LeBron more credit than he deserves, but I do think he deserves a little more than what we are giving him here. And you are biased, but that’s OK. We all are :)
Third, I think you misunderstood me when I said he was compared to Jordan and Magic. He was compared to the MJs like Olowokandi was compared to Mutumbo, as a draftee. But unlike many lottery picks, James didn’t disappoint. For the record I think Magic and Jordan are/were better players than LeBron.
Lastly, LARRY HUGHES (Okay, that was the last time, I promise, man).
“And I’m not trying to shut the argument down by any means.”
I didn’t make you gun shy did I? =)
Unfortunately I don’t agree with you here. I do agree that it isn’t nice to pile on, especially since he phrased his comments so civilly. However as I read the comments they all seemed to attack his argument from a different angle. My point was that using Kobe’s 3pt percentage for this season was flawed because of the small sample size, his poor initial percentage, and it’s likelihood to go up (all of which I don’t think were said before, well maybe Altree). The second thing I tried to do was to take some of everyone’s argument and put it in to a complete “closing argument” to illustrate the overall point.
I don’t really see anyone “piling on” yet. Emphasis on yet.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
Gun shy? You're banned .... jk jk
No, in this case, it’s because I’m really happy that we’re having a LeBron/Kobe discussion devoid of the animosity that normally ensues. This is exactly the type of conversation I want us having, if everybody can stay cool.
Re: piling on. First of all, like I said, it was not directed at you, or at least, not solely at you. Yours was just the last comment of the bunch. And you are right, people are making different specific points within the frame of the same overall talking points. But the problem is that they aren’t making only their specific point, it comes in the context of the repeating the same things that have been said.
Maybe there’s no way around this, and maybe I get overruled by the court of public opinion on this one. All I’m saying is that if CavsLebronFan comes back, sees 10 super long answers to his post, and they all mention the same talking points, he might give up after the 2nd one and we have no more conversation. And I can’t blame him, that many words is overwhelming even for me.
My suggestion would be, if you have something to add to another person’s argument, then reply to their post with just the added point, instead of doing the whole thing over again in order to get your view point out there. I’m just trying to keep this baby going, that’s all.
Well I guess he should come back sooner then.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
In fairness to Cavs fans ...
I think it is an exaggeration when people say Lebron can’t shoot. He’s an average shooter; detractors like pointing out this area of weakness.
Anyways, in my opinion, in iso one-on-one situations (often occurring at the ends of games, hence Kobe’s closer reputation), I would take Kobe. To break down defenses and get to the rim, I would take Lebron.
I agree
He is an average to above average shooter. He is not a bad shooter.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Dec 16, 2009 2:22 PM PST up reply actions
ya know on breaking the records thing....
This has happened several times to superstars…. and the two I’m going to mention is really going to make your skin crawl…. but let’s imagine Lebron makes it back to the Finals another… say… 2-5 times. Would it really be out of the realm of possibility that the “best player in the world” cannot win a championship in 3-6 tries, not because of his own failings, but because the Cavs (or Knicks?) never find a coach to use the right system around him with the subpar talent that his franchise can afford to place on the roster?
Then let’s say… in 10-15 years from now, Lebron has broken every concievable record that would preclude him from #1 on everyone’s Greatest Player Ever list…. except the ring. So how about one last hurrah, just to cement his title.
Now… who does this sound like to you? I’m thinking first John Elway…. and more recently Brett Favre (however Favre did win a title b4, the same year vikings discovered America, I believe. Hmm…. strange coincidence there.)
"The problem actually is that PER is a extra-long, double high wagon load of horse crap." - timbo (7/3/09)
IF and thats a big IF
he were able to transcend his game even into the next generation of bball then maybe you could make a case for him. But I supremely doubt that he could break the points record or the rebound record or the assist record. It would take a miracle for him to still be able to hold onto his combo of strength, speed, and athleticism for another 10 years let alone 15 years. Its not like football where a quarterback can play in the pocket with good protection. He would have to continue to being a force and avg somewhere around 20 a game after he slowed down. I mean it took Kareem 20 years to get that record that high. Jordan avgd 30 a game for the majority of his career and still didn’t catch it. Just saying the difficult nature of the task your presenting.
WELL
who really cares about petty things such as Lebron averaging 2 more assists than kobe? does having those 2 more assists a game equate to more championships??
id much rather have the triangle offense where we can distribute the ball more evenly, work as a cohesive unit, and make up differences when one of our players has an off night than have lebron give the ball to someone and pray for something good to happen.
this works ok most of the time especially vs weak/average teams
but in the big games that matter against elite teams with more advanced defenses, the cavs system will fail because no one else will step up. take a look back at the 2009 Eastern conference finals, while lebron was putting up all those glamourous stats it was because the rest of the offense for the team went stagnant.
while the triangle offense has been the backbone for 10 NBA championships.
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
That's why the article/book is a bunch of bad homer BS
or written by guys who doesn’t know anything about basketball.
The highlighted section says it all.
just one word
Kobe is so refrained right now.This may sound surprising but he can/is able to 27-10-10 any given night since he is 18,trust me.
It defenitely doesn't work in the playoffs
"These young guys are playing checkers. I'm out there playing chess" - Kobe
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Dec 11, 2009 9:37 AM PST up reply actions
More than anything, I'm just stunned at the lack of journalistic integrity
Their jobs are to cover this guy and his team in an unbiased way. How anybody can read this and think they are capable of that job is beyond me. If I were the editor at that paper, I’d be looking for new beat writers right now.
I’m not enamored with the Times writers personally, but they are certainly capable of speaking both positively and negatively about their team. Play by play or announcing is one thing, but this kind of homerism in actual journalism is astounding.
I’m just stunned at the lack of journalistic integrity
This book was co-written by Brian Windhorst. I’m surprised by the stupidity of some of the statements.
I also believe that some of the things in this book stem from LBJ’s own input or ideas. Windhorst is the Cavs’ beat reporter for the Plain Dealer. He’s there everyday, and has probably had discussions with LBJ regarding this. Lebron reference Kobe’s 0 rebs and 3 assists in Kobe’s 61 game.
“”http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-090205" target="new">You could see it in the way he started going off early in the first quarter, you could sense it beforehand during a casual conversation in which James made mention of Kobe’s zero rebounds and three assists two nights earlier, and you could feel it in your bones if you had spent enough time around the two of them this past summer and witnessed their competition for the alpha dog role on Team USA. "
LeBron and his people know that is a point of emphasis for folks, an they try to take advantage of it every chance they can – no matter how bogus or subjective the “statistic” of assists is. So they use it to their advantage to try to explain why LeBron’s better.
The article’s point is just stupid. Never mind the stupid statements about Kobe. It also alludes to LBJ’s superiority over Michael Jordan. That’s how moronic it is. They put LBJ with ZERO rings, 1 MVP, and 1 scoring title up against 4 players (including Magic) with a total of 18 Championships, 13 MVP’s, and 10 scoring titles. I’m not going to bother to count the All-NBA selections, All-Defense, or DPOY’s.
unbiased?
What sports journalist on a local beat has ever truly shown unbiased feelings towards their team? Even now, more and more people are beginning to see through national sports writers or reporters that work for ESPN, etc.
(ESPN does favor LA over say… Green Bay or Kansas City. But if forced to decide between an east coast team, Chicago (and maybe even Dallas) or Los Angeles, the eastern cities will win out in their coverage.
"The problem actually is that PER is a extra-long, double high wagon load of horse crap." - timbo (7/3/09)
This is the Cleveland Plain-Dealer
It’s going to be a massive homer most of the time. Ignore it. He knows nothing about how the Lakers’ offense functions, and it’s his job to write glowing stuff about his team.
Move on.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
it makes no sense that they reflect as though we still visit them when that’s not the case. sbnation should fix that.
by chaucer on Dec 11, 2009 6:44 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
+1
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
kobe more entertaining hands down
all this rant about one player having more stats, better at this and better on paper at that; who cares, really. why do we enjoy watching sports? aren’t we all waiting on the edge of our seats to watch something spectacular? who delivers more than anyone? mr. true world mvp of basketball entertainment, kobe bryant. even his opponents are in awe of what he does, that’s right. sorry all you basketball analyst, i don’t watch basketball waiting for that crisp pass to the open man for an uncontested layup because that somehow translates in to good teamwork. kobe bryant, simply amazing.
by b-ballfan on Dec 12, 2009 2:49 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I know I'm REALLY tired of this argument Kobe or Lebron??
Are they serious, a couple more assist, more rebounds and power drives/dunks to the hoop really makes Lebron better??
That makes no sense to me, when you talk about basketball? You play the game to win NOT for stats, last time I checked and what if Kobe was putting up those stat numbers what would be there stupid argument now?? I just don’t get it or agree.
When you practice to make a team, you first learn skills, drills, defense and offensive plans to help your TEAM win…… Stats come within the flow of the game and within the flow of your teams offense and defensive sets……Do people really think its that hard to get stats??? And especially human tallied stats and I didn’t even start to mention the difference Kobe and Lebron have in skills. Kobe is not easily defended, Lebron on the other hand is predictable and easily defended.
I do know what’s really hard to get and thats RINGS……AND Kobe has 4 of them to Oh No Lebron has NONE…………END OF STORY
There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.
back to fundamentals
I think we have overlooked an extremely important point of basketball -
its fundamentals.
While uprising athletic basketball stars in the new era of basketball
today has made the game more fanciful but also turned us into
subscribers of visual entertainment. Athleticism allows players today
to accomplish what ancestors haven’t been able to accomplish, thus
making basketball increasingly attractive. Being able to drive to the
hoop to make a basket by dispossessing a couple of defenders has
caused us to become slaves of visual entertainment. While theory
states that the game should be played in a particular way, athleticism
overwhelms theories; as long as one has the ability to overwhelm the
offense, basketball theories and systems can be discarded. However,
in a game where a superstar matches up against a good team, physical
superiority is more likely to play a smaller role. Superstar who rely on
physical superiority will not get themselves far and history has shown
that might is not everything. Take Dwight Howard for instance, he is a
genetic freak, he is able to block shots like a flying swatter, he has a
monstrous body that has made him unanswerable to most team’s
defense. However he was rendered obsolete in finals against the
Lakers and the answer to that is due to the limited set of skills he has
such as only being able to score near the basket, not to mention his
poor free throw shooting. Now lets take Lebron into discussion. Upon
close scrutiny of his style of game, I’m in awe of him massive dunks
and ablity to drive to the basket, his overall stats, ability to take over
games at crucial moments, but his over-reliance on athleticism not only
cost his game, but also made me doubt his completeness as a
superstar. If the completeness of a superstar is simply viewed by his
athleticism and the flashiness he brings to the game, how complete can
he be?
In my opinion, the completeness of a superstar should also be judged
by their skills and the understanding of the game. In terms of
athleticism, I would think that Kobe and Lebron are on-par with each
other, what differentiates both players in terms of physical attributes is
size (hence Kobe is usually a SF or SG, while Lebron is PF or SF),
which causes Lebron to be much more dominate as a rebounder, but it
doesn’t equate to being a better rebounder. I stress this because most
ppl think that though Lebron averages more rebounds than Kobe, he
is a more complete player, or some may even say Lebron is a better
rebounder. But that is a fallacy as stats do not provide sufficient
evidence. I’ve witnessed how Kobe rose up to occasions on numerous
occasions to get clutch rebounds against 7 footers when such
rebounds decides the game. So now what? Is Kobe not as good as
Lebron? Or is he even better? It can’t be proven or disproven. When it
comes to rebounding, the determinants are of course, size, strength,
post-up skills, and knowing how to get into a good position. But what
I see is that Kobe has such a high basketball IQ and array of skills
which allows him to post up against players who are bigger in size
than him, compensating for the lack of size. Who is more complete?
Kobe hands down.
by cook on Dec 24, 2009 12:02 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
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