Gotta Love Skimming Over This Column After a Game Like This
by Gils_Keloids on Nov 4, 2009 10:24 PM PST
46 comments
You gotta love skimming over this column from Feb.13, 2009 after a game like this ... and grinning smugly.
People often say that Kobe Bryant has no weaknesses to his game, but that’s not really true. Before the game, Battier was given his special package of information. "He’s the only player we give it to," Morey says. "We can give him this fire hose of data and let him sift. Most players are like golfers. You don’t want them swinging while they’re thinking." The data essentially broke down the floor into many discrete zones and calculated the odds of Bryant making shots from different places on the court, under different degrees of defensive pressure, in different relationships to other players — how well he scored off screens, off pick-and-rolls, off catch-and-shoots and so on. Battier learns a lot from studying the data on the superstars he is usually assigned to guard.
and
The reason the Rockets insist that Battier guard Bryant is his gift for encouraging him into his zones of lowest efficiency. The effect of doing this is astonishing: Bryant doesn’t merely help his team less when Battier guards him than when someone else does. When Bryant is in the game and Battier is on him, the Lakers’ offense is worse than if the N.B.A.’s best player had taken the night off. “The Lakers’ offense should obviously be better with Kobe in,” Morey says. “But if Shane is on him, it isn’t.” A player whom Morey describes as “a marginal N.B.A. athlete” not only guards one of the greatest — and smartest — offensive threats ever to play the game. He renders him a detriment to his team.
15-30. 41 points, 11-15 FT, 6 assists, 4 rebounds, 4 steals, 1 win
Savor it ... for now. Because rest assured Kobe will have a bad game someday with Battier guarding him, and we'll have to hear about it all over again, even though it will have less to do with Battier's D and more to do with Kobe simply having an off night.
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LOL
Kobe probably has that NYT article posted on his locker somewhere with a Shane Battier voodoo doll next to it and the dates the Lakers play the Rockets circled on his calendar (along with the dates against the Cavs, Orlando and Boston).
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Nov 4, 2009 10:40 PM PST reply actions
I think nights like tonight are the outlier
He makes the clutch shots and he gets his points, but it’s normally on an obscene amount of shots. Kobe’s “off-nights” against Battier are no accident.
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
is there a way to look up stats vs a certain team? I know espn analysts have that kind of resource...
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
try 82games.com
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
or basketball-reference
The Dream Shake ...on Twitter.
"I think girls are probably just better shooters." - Steve Novak
Last year
4 regular season games against Houston:
Totals:
44-83 FG, 8-15 3FG, 17-25 FT, 20.75 FGA
Percentages:
.530 FG, .533 3FG, .680 FT, .601 TS%
Averages:
28.3 points, 5 assists, 4 rebounds, 2 steals, 8.25 FTAs
The reality is that he averaged slightly fewer shots than usual against Houston — certainly not “obscene amounts” — while shooting extremely well from… well, everywhere. In fact, his scoring average against the Rockets was 1.5 points higher than his overall season average, despite taking essentially the same number of shots (0.08 fewer, if you want to be precise).
Though, it does seem that Battier’s free throw defense against Bryant was damn good.
Or maybe not: He did give him approximately 1.5 extra FTAs per game than Kobe averaged overall.
If anything, I think we should all agree that Kobe’s stellar performances against Battier are no accident.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
Thanks
I was too tired to take up the mantle, so I just referenced my old stuff below.
ESPN has good splits by team for last season. Like I said, no one talks about the Kobe-Stopper on the Warriors, even though Kobe shot his lowest FG% against them (out of teams he faced more than three times, including the Rockets).
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
vintage JT
maybe you should let Gils run respectkobe.com :)
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
awesome stats btw, thanks.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
For the visual learners...
Damn. Can Shane guard Kobe more often, please?
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
in fairness if you look at a few years prior Kobe isn't THAT hot
but still, as Gils pointed out, some of the conclusions drawn by that article are downright ridiculous.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
As Gils said
This stuff makes it pretty clear that Kobe’s occasional bad games against the Rockets have been, pretty much, just bad games, as happens to everyone.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
hahah
Well it’s called confirmation bias, and we all fall prey to it. I’ll admit, I catch myself actively looking for stuff that confirms my bias that Kobe is the best, but I certainly try not to.
If you think Battier makes Kobe work harder for his shots, you’ll be looking for all the evidence that confirms that theory, and ignoring the stuff that doesn’t.
Same for reffing – you only see the bad calls against your team, when they’re losing, but you don’t remember when they got favorable calls.
In more simple terms, you only remember the good stuff, and you forget about the bad stuff.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
oops I just realized that "simpler" is the right way to say "more simple"
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
Ok, then it's the simpler way to say it!
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
BTW
While it’s not as easy to find playoffs splits, and therefore requires doing all the calculations manually (most of which I have not done), I can tell you this much: In the 2009 Playoffs, Battier+Artest held Kobe to 45.6% from the field.
Ouch, Kobe. How can you let Battier pwn you like that?
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
His off nights against Battier
Look awfully similar to his off nights against other teams with less heralded defenders.
I did the research earlier on SSR, Kobe had his lowest FG% last season against the Warriors or the Clippers, but we don’t hear about how great Stephen Jackson and Corey Maggette (or whoever was guarding him on the Clippers, I forget when Maggette left the Clips) defend Kobe.
Battier is an exception defender, but to go so far as to say he renders Kobe a detriment to his team is risible.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Nov 4, 2009 11:46 PM PST up reply actions
Not so
We’ve been paying attention to this since that article came out in February. And since it ran, it hasn’t been apparent that Battier is able to force Kobe to struggle at all.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
Also what are you doing up this late in Kansas, Chief?
Eh nevermind, none of my business. But you are up late.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
Indeed I am
Listening to Red Rabbit on the iPod, not even slightly sleepy… unfortunately. iPod died, had to come plug it in, checked up on the site while here … you know the rest.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
Why didn't they ever make that one into a movie?
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
Dunno
Not done with it yet, so I couldn’t really tell you how movie-worthy the plot is.
The truth, though, is that Clancy books — at least the Jack Ryan ones — are typically so detail oriented, thorough, and extensive that it’s impossible to get even the gist of even half of the information from the book into the movie. They end up changing quite a bit.
Though I will say, Red October, Patriot Games, and Clear and Present Danger were awesome movies. And Harrison Ford as Jack Ryan was awesome.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
You mean you didn't like Ben Affleck as Jack Ryan?
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
I actually thought the movie was pretty good
But Harrison Ford was awesome.
Of course, it would have made more sense the other way around. Jack was supposed to be young in Patriot, and at least a couple years older in Sum.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
Alec Baldwin was good
But he just wasn’t cut out for the long-term commitment of making sequels
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
Alright, now I better get out of here. iPod has some charge back, and hopefully soon I’ll be having a hard time following the storyline and be able to sleep.
Good post, thanks for the chance to do my the old, “Uh, no, here are the numbers,” routine that I’m so fond of.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
Battier
He plays Kobe well, but not nearly as well as you might think from reading that article, and statistically the game like tonight was definitely not an outlier. Also I found funny was that article implied that LBJ was unstoppable when in fact from the games I’ve watched Battier locks Lebron up much more effictively than Kobe.
Yep, I also did a follow up on that
After I did the Kobe write-up. I knew this stuff would come in handy.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
I also see you commented on that Lebron write up in May
That is crazay!
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
Let them cling to straws...
…Battier defends Kobe probably better than average, but he in no way shuts him down.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Shane Battier will never be an All Star.
But he’s definitely a guy I would rather have on my team than many other players. He’s a hard worker on the court and gracious in person. And Morey and his advisers are geniuses.
But in his prime, he’d have just as good a chance at stopping Kobe than he would at stopping Jordan.
I got no hate for Battier really. He’s classier than most of the other “Kobe stoppers” (Ruben Patterson). But I always have to smile when I read words like:
And Morey and his advisers are geniuses.
If by geniuses you mean losers then I agree with you.
And yes I am a 2009 World Champion Fan.
by olf on Nov 5, 2009 8:39 AM PST up reply actions
Sorry. By “genius” I mean somehow avoiding the words “potential” and “hype” and choosing instead players who can actually play.
By the way, I certainly have no problem with you, or with Morey or even the Rockets. And I think they are a scrappy team who always plays hard – even through brutal team injuries. But I have a hard time thinking genius when they’ve made it out of the 1st round once this century.
Similar things happen up in Portland. They’re always admiring the awesomeness of their front office. But I suppose if their fans are happy with it, then great.
And yes I am a 2009 World Champion Fan.
by olf on Nov 5, 2009 1:55 PM PST up reply actions
It's not Battier's fault
It’s the guys who make the wrong assumptions and interpretations based on their faulty basketball statistical models.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
It's those people
who praise Battier’s defense for getting a hand in Kobe’s face. The go on and on about Battier’s ability to get a hand in Kobe’s face without fouling. Never stopping to realize that Kobe has already marked his target and shooting by the time the late hand gets there. He doesn’t disrupt Kobe’s shooting rhythm, it just appears that way. the shot is already on the way up.
LOL to everything above
Shane is an ok defender but he doesn’t stop Kobe, the article is just ridiculous.
There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.
Ummm
Battier is a ridiculously overrated defender. I’ve pointed this out before. He has a reputation based on his name, but the numbers simply do not back him up anymore.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
From observation, no hard data
I’d say Sefolosha, Prince, and Marion are the best defenders of Kobe one-on-one. It’s the athletic, long-armed defenders that are able to recover because of their outsize limbs that seem to actually give Kobe problems.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Nov 7, 2009 10:27 AM PST up reply actions
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