Pardon Our Bench
by DexterFishmore on Nov 25, 2009 9:30 AM PST
in Editorial
113 comments
About a month into the season, we're starting to know some things about the Los Angeles Lakers. It's still only November, sure. We don't know how strong they'll ultimately be compared to other league powers. But we can start to see the contours of a typical night at the office.
Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum are a manly inside pair and too much for most teams to handle. Kobe Bryant is still a lethal scorer and playmaking force. Ron Artest is still a splendid defender, and on any given night either he or Lamar Odom will be good for 15 or more points. All of the above was on display against a pathetically overmatched New York Knicks team last night.
And then there's the bench. I'm really sorry to do this, but it's time we talked about the bench. We've put this off long enough.
First, let's be clear who we're talking about. Although Lamar doesn't start when the team's fully healthy, he does play starter's minutes, and his talent and production are not subject to any serious debate. He hasn't always been great so far this year, but we know he's not the problem. When Lakers fans grumble about "the bench," Lamar isn't meant to be included.
What we're really talking about is the play of Jordan Farmar, Shannon Brown, Josh Powell, Luke Walton, DJ Mbenga, Adam Morrison and Sasha Vujacic. Of this group, Walton didn't play last night because of his back injury, and Mbenga and Powell got DNP-CDs. The performances of the other four are cast into unflattering relief by their plus-minus numbers. Farmar, Brown, Morrison and Vujacic averaged a -9 in about 10 minutes of action last night. All but Farmar were on the court when the Knicks ripped off an 11-0 run, which dragged Kobe and Ron back into the game with five minutes left.
If you were surprised that the second unit failed to maintain the Lakers' lead, welcome to the wonderful sport of basketball. I hope you enjoyed your first-ever game.
With about two minutes remaining against the Knicks, Lakers play-by-play announcer Joel Meyers asked rhetorically at what point in the season the Laker reserves would "step up." After the game, sideline man Michael Eaves asked Pau how long he thought it would take for the bench to find its "rhythm." These questions contained an unstated assumption that the Laker bench right now is anomalously underperforming, playing worse than what we should reasonably expect. Is that really the case, though? What precisely are we expecting from these guys?
I'm not implying that the second unit is playing well, mind you. Certainly their job description should include being able to hold a lead against the Knicks, at home. But why do people keep expecting them to transform into game-changing shock troops? Isn't it possible that they're not "inconsistent" or "out of sync," but just not that good?
In the table below I've listed, for each of the Laker reserves in question, their PERs for the last two seasons as well as the season so far. And before you start screaming: no, I'm not suggesting that PER be accepted as an end-all, final-word metric. It's just a useful shorthand for a player's overall production and works fine for the present discussion.
|
Player |
2007-08 |
2008-09 |
2009-10 |
|
Brown |
6.6 |
13.0 |
12.8 |
|
Farmar |
15.3 |
9.9 |
10.7 |
|
Mbenga |
9.4 |
13.9 |
10.2 |
|
Morrison |
DNP |
5.7 |
11.2 |
|
Powell |
10.4 |
9.9 |
10.8 |
|
Vujacic |
14.9 |
12.7 |
6.4 |
|
Walton |
12.2 |
11.3 |
15.0 |
If there's to be improved play from the bench this year, where's it supposed to come from? Luke was the best reserve before his injury; if he's in decent shape when he returns, the situation won't look quite so grim. But who else?
Shannon, DJ and Powell are all basically performing in line with their respective track records. At age 24, Brown likely has some improvement ahead of him, but he's not going to become a Sixth Man of the Year candidate overnight. Farmar, I'd argue as well, is also more or less where we should expect him to be. With each passing game, his performance in 2007-08 looks increasingly flukish, and his performance last season looks like his real baseline.
Adam Morrison has actually been better than we would've guessed, but no one thinks he's a candidate to be even a league-average player. The dude is simply no es bueno. If he's in the NBA next year, it'll be solely due to residual caché from having been a high lottery pick once upon a time.
The real mystery in all this is Sasha Vujacic, who in three years has gone from good to frustrating to radioactively bad. On the one hand, it seems improbable that he'll remain this terrible; someone his age shouldn't completely fall apart absent an injury. On the other hand, he shows no sign of bouncing back any time soon. He's averaging less than 10 minutes a night and has made only two shots in the last five games. It must be getting hard for Phil Jackson to justify even putting him on the court.
What about help from outside? As Ben R pointed out in the comments last night, two available names are Jerry Stackhouse and Wally Sczcerbiak. If those guys had anything at all left in the tank, they wouldn't be available. There's also Allen Iverson, though it's hard to imagine the Lakers voluntarily stepping on that particular land mine.
A deadline trade will be a possibility, the most likely situation involving cutting bait on Farmar and shipping out Morrison's expiring deal. It's not possible at this point to foretell who might be obtainable in return.
The Lakers, we should probably just admit, are stuck with a subpar bench. The reserves aren't about to "step up" or find "consistency." How the Lakers have won games so far, by overwhelming opponents with top-line talent, is how they'll have to get it done in the foreseeable future. Which might, in fact, be plenty good enough.
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Odom is a bench player
Technically. I know he plays starter minutes, but having him off the bench is a huge asset.
by bearface on Nov 25, 2009 10:05 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Without 1st round draft picks and a cap, were not going to have the best bench in the NBA
But what is up with Sasha?
I was watching courtside view yesterday where you just watch the game from the view from the floor without huge zoom lenses and announcers (kind of like being courtside, but not really), and was watching Sasha. He was actually playing really good D 1 on 1, but all his problems seemed to come from the fact that he was terrible in working together with the other players.
And his shot mechanics looks just awful. If he had drained any one of his open threes, it would have been a different story for the bench. His shot used to look perfect, but he just does this quick release thing now and it just doesn’t look right and the ball has trouble even making it to the basket. I can’t believe that the coaches can’t fix that, I mean the guy already knew how to shoot, his D got better, he should be a decent sub. The second unit definitely needs some more coaching.
by Cool Dudes on Nov 25, 2009 10:38 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
The lack of draft picks is going to catch up with the Lakers...
There’s no reason they shouldn’t have rolled the dice on somebody this year. Trade down for an (unguaranteed) second rounder for financial reasons if you must, but for the love of god, you’ve gotta get some young bodies in the developmental pipeline…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Nov 25, 2009 2:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We have a developmental pipeline
It’s called the Memphis Grizzlies. Stop killing the mojo. The future is now!
by Cool Dudes on Nov 25, 2009 8:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why not playing time for Powell?
That one is puzzling to me.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Nov 25, 2009 10:46 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
True, he's basically our most consistent bench player
And why he and Farmar don’t run the pick and roll consistently in garbage time is absolutely beyond me.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
by Ben R on Nov 25, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
constantly* not consistently
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
by Ben R on Nov 25, 2009 12:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No available minutes for him on the court.
Powell can only play the 4 (or the 5 in emergency/garbage circumstances). With a healthy front-court, Powell shouldn’t get any playing time. Who’s minutes do you cut to get Powell some burn? Odom? Gasol? Bynum? Even if those guys are only playing 30-36 mpg (which is about where I’d want them), there is zero time for Powell.
Even if he has been our best bench player, there’s just no room for him in a crowded front court. The only time he should see the court is if a game is over, or if we have major foul trouble on the front line.
by C.A. Clark on Nov 25, 2009 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Powell at the SF?
Could be an answer. When Ron Artest is resting now that Luke is out, we usually run some weird lineup that consists of 3 of the following 5: Kobe, Farmar, Vujacic, Morrison, and Brown. Now when Kobe is out there it’s okay but in the effective garbage time minutes, you’re looking at what could be one of the weakest back courts in the NBA.
Powell, as stated, has been a consisted bench player and his shooting has managed to improve. I think he’d be good at the SF playing off of Lamar and either Bynum or Gasol because face it, Powell lacks the play making skills to play out of the post in the Laker’s system.
Granted, this post is primarily about garbage time, so Powell would be in there anyways at the four.
Either way I think Powell should be receiving the increased minutes with Luke out rather than Sasha or Ammo. The Laker’s attitude has been to outsize their opponents throughout the game, why does that suddenly change with our 2nd unit tiny backcourt?
Don’t try and tell me that Powell will guard opposing SF’s poorer than Ammo or Vujacic.
Kobe and Ron out? Powell IN!
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Nov 25, 2009 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Powell at SF is an excellent point
I don’t understand either that the Lakers go a to a small conventional back-up team. Most of the time Mbenga isn’t even in the game and Powell is the center which makes no sense whatsoever. Powell is a 4 but I too believe he can be a serviceable 3 if given the chance.
by Busboys4me on Dec 29, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
great post
Looking at the stats (PER) for each player individually sure gives and indication that we should not be surprised by the bench’s lack of production or their inability to sustain a lead. But, there production as a group is what annoys me. They just don’t look good as a group. Their execution of the Triangle looks horrible. The bench would do so much better if they relied more on putting LO in the post similar to what the starters do. The issue with the bench in my opinion is that they become a group of jump shooters or they look for fast break points. I understand that because of their speed and youth for them doing that but this team’s identity is a half court team and the starters don’t play a half court game. And when they do, they just chuck up threes.
I think smashing the Suns made me realize how far Kobe and the Lakers have come from five years ago, when the Suns had the world at their feet.
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 25, 2009 10:52 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Farmar expecting he's on the way out
coupled with his past attitude “issues” might be part of this problem. With Luke out the way the offense runs for the bench depends almost solely on what he wants to do.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Nov 25, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh, I don't buy the argument that Stack and Wally are available because no one wants them
They’re simply part of the “I want to play with a contender, but I’ve had injury issues, so I’m going to wait until mid-season before latching on with one” group. Stackhouse has had yearly hammy and similar problems, so it makes sense that he would want to wait out most of the season, and Szczerbiak had knee surgery during the summer and his doctor has warned him about serious long-term damage to it if he injures it again.
Oh, and add Antonio Daniels to the list of available free agents, although he’s been associated with Cleveland for months now.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
by Ben R on Nov 25, 2009 10:55 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Mindset.
I think the bench will be fine in games that matter. Now that we’re relatively healthy. Lately, the bench has been out there in garbage time. As a result, they are gunning for stats in blowouts. Instead they need to play disciplined, and treat it like a 0-0 game.
by wondahbap on Nov 25, 2009 11:14 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
i think this has a lot to do with the problem
they seem to just abandon the offense since its garbage time
and rather than trying to go into the paint, they settle for the 3
and the opposing team takes advantage of this and are typically able to make a run…
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
by shaqfor3 on Nov 25, 2009 2:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but the problem lies not just in their scattering offense
but they suddenly decide not to play defense…
by Nostance on Nov 25, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They do settle for three's alot..
And i would say that goes into “gunning for stats”, they lose their offensive focus and forget that the triangle has to have a TEAM involved.
Although i like the chemistry farmar and brown have.
And their D is……. wait, what D?
by true_lakerfan on Nov 25, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it's entirely the mindset
because our bench and coaching staff is not stupid to the point where they wouldn’t understand that garbage time DOES matter in the context of the entire season and the goal of winning a championship.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Nov 25, 2009 4:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone want to take a guess about what team would want the expiring contracts of Farmar & Ammo?
How about Farmar & Ammo for Chris Duhon? I would absolutely take Duhon in a heartbeat. Playing in Coach K’s system helps because he understands his limitations and doesn’t try to do too much. I think the trade benefits all parties involved. Then the Lakers can add a veteran to the mix, or a young player. Wally and Stackhouse seem like injuries waiting to happen. I’m not sure who else is available as a free agent. There is always the putrid shooting Desmond Mason. Mickael Gelabale and Tony Gaffney are other alternatives. You always add another gunner like Gerald Green, lol.
I blame the Knicks. Done. And done.
by E-ROC on Nov 25, 2009 11:22 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
PER not valid
The Lakers have had Pau back for 3 games, so the PER does not provide valid insight. Let me explain…
With Pau back in, the reserves can play with the likes of Odom and another starter. These are guys that crash the hoop, understand the triangle, and will coincidentally raise the PER. This occurs from assists, having the starter box out the best rebounder, steals leading to points, better team defense, better passing, etc. Playing in a line-up with a bunch of chuckers is going to lower your PER. Especially when the defender only has to defend the perimeter.
Shannon needs spacing and good passing to become effective. Vujacic needs his man to leave him open on the perimeter. Farmar needs to have someone set good ball screens and make effective cuts to open spots on the floor. Powell needs to clear into open space and needs help to crash the board. Mbenga needs help in the low post. None of these guys can accomplish this without another starter. Get the picture?
by 81 Witness on Nov 25, 2009 11:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
The bench was outscored by the Knicks bench, 41(!)-9(!).
by E-ROC on Nov 25, 2009 12:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
That is a much better indicator than PER! Though, some teams have 6th men who are in for the majority of the game (Robinson, Gi-no-bili, Odom).
by 81 Witness on Nov 25, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is just off the top of my head, but.........
what about starting Farmar and moving Fisher to the bench.
1. Fisher already plays bench minutes.
2. He would probably control the pace and lead better.
3. Farmar would probably play better/more efficiently with the starters.
4. Someone needs to be groomed for that starting PG slot anyway.
etc.
etc.
etc.
What do you think?
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
by pslakerfan on Nov 25, 2009 12:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
you're gonna get
239867956728 shannon supporter comments
i think shannon is the sexiest beast alive and i love farmar’s goofy ears but pulling out fisher is a big no-no
by suzie-q on Nov 25, 2009 12:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
???
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
by pslakerfan on Nov 25, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Farmar has earned the right to start over Brown, let alone Fisher.
by E-ROC on Nov 25, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
Until Farmar makes the players around him BETTER, he does not deserve to start. Besides putting Fisher with the 2nd stringers makes another player who relies too much on chucking shots.
by 81 Witness on Nov 25, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course he hasn't earned the right.
It’s about making the team better. Drew hasn’t earned the right to start over Odom, but PJ obviously thinks it’s better for the team (as do I).
I think Manu Ginobili has earned the right to start for the Spurs, but that’s not what’s best for his team apparently.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
by pslakerfan on Nov 25, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Anything Farmar would add to the starting lineup is negligible.
by E-ROC on Nov 25, 2009 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
like fisher
he takes some of the ball handling pressure off kobe
by Nostance on Nov 25, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not about earning a right
That is absolutely the wrong mindset. It’s the mindset that says, the best player should start. Or, in this variation, the best performing player should start.
That’s just not true.
The player that makes the most sense for the team should start. There are three key factors that go into that decision:
- Which player makes the starting lineup better as a whole?
- Which player makes the bench lineup better as a whole?
- Which scenario gets the most production out of all those involved?
None of that has anything to do with who is better, or who “deserves” to start. It’s all about how various lineups mix and match — things like, how the starters could get better production out of Farmar, or how Fisher could stabilize the bench, or how Shannon Brown is best as an injection of raw energy off the bench. (Not saying those are all the truth, but they are possible realities that, IF true, would warrant such a lineup, regardless of talent level and who has earned what.)
The problem with the “he hasn’t earned it” or “someone else deserves it more than him” line of reasoning is that it makes earning the starting role the end goal, and it fosters selfish play and individual rivalries rather than a mentality that looks out for the good of the team first.
Having the best players in the starting positions is not the end goal at all. WINNING games, and in the end, WINNING championships, is the end goal. Whatever best accomplishes those goals overrides whatever any player has done to “deserve” a starting role.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
by Josh Tucker on Nov 25, 2009 1:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah......
what he said.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
by pslakerfan on Nov 25, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think rotating Fish to the bench would solve anything
in fact, I think it would make things worse. Who knows how Fish will play if he’s relegated to coming of the bench seeing as he’s never done that in his career I don’t think. Farmar is responsible for running a lot of the offense for the second unit and he does things that Fish can’t do.
Remember the entire team has been talking about chemistry and what that means, especially to the bench. They were talking about how having Lamar back in would really help them. Well, now we are being treated to another chemistry lesson with Lamar in but Luke out. I think tinkering between the bench and starting lineup anymore would only serve to worsen the chemistry and disrupt something that is very good, despite having a few grey areas.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Nov 25, 2009 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
This is a more valid argument. I’m not saying Fish to the bench would necessarily improve the bench. I’m just saying that consideration is more valid than that of who has earned a starting spot.
Yes, Farmar runs the offense for the second unit. Couldn’t it be that that’s the problem? I mean, it’s pretty logical, right? Farmar runs the second unit; the second unit sucks; therefore, something about Farmar running the second unit is NOT good. Why should we be concerned about Fish not having Farmar’s ability to run the second unit, sense it’s not working for Farmar in the first place?
Fish isn’t a “run the offense” kind of point guard, in the sense that everything goes through him (something Steve Nash does well, Farmar apparently not so much). But we do know that he is much better than Farmar at getting the Lakers into the triangle. And isn’t that what the bench needs?
Also, Fish was came off the bench for Deron Williams in Utah.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
by Josh Tucker on Nov 25, 2009 5:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah good call
Forgot about Utah.
You’re right about Farmar and as I said somewhere else in a comment in this thread I do think he may be part of the problem.
I think taking Fish OUT and putting Farmar into the starting lineup though just does way too much to mess up chemistry to justify it. If Farmar is responsible for the bad play in the second unit, he could just as well make the starters play worse if he starts. In terms of benching D.Fish as a solution, I’d rather wait the problem out and trade Farmar / Morrison for a new PG if need be.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Nov 25, 2009 5:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts about sending Fish to the bench......
were more (or all) about leadership and not about skills. I think what our bench needs (at least in garbage time when they seem to be at their worst) is someone to LEAD them, keep running the offense, etc.
Also I don’t see Fish having a problem with it, at least not outwardly. He is already getting “disrespect” minutes anyway. (We don’t buy all of this saving his minutes for the playoffs stuff do we?)
I guess I think maybe Farmar with the starters might force him to play the right way and Fish with the bench (again only in garbage time) might force the rest of them to play the right way. Hence, win/win.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
by pslakerfan on Nov 25, 2009 5:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently everyone missed my point.
It’s not about Farmar. Start Odom at the Point. Start Shannon at the point. I could care less. I was talking about improving the “maturity” of the bench.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
by pslakerfan on Nov 25, 2009 1:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I got you
And I agree, for the most part. I’ve been asking for a while that PJ do more mixed lineups, rather than entire bench lineups, for that specific reason. We need veteran and starter presence while the bench players are on the floor to bolster their play.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
by Josh Tucker on Nov 25, 2009 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If you step back and think about it, this is a really funny concept
Most of the time you hear a championship team talk about improving their bench, it is to get younger/more athletic. We are a championship team that wants our bench to get older/more veteran. It’s a weird situation to be in, one that you don’t see all that often.
by C.A. Clark on Nov 25, 2009 3:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It makes more sense to start and end with Fish
and give the old man more rest in between.
by Cool Dudes on Nov 25, 2009 8:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The unfortunate truth....
Although i agree with wondahbap’s theory about the bench playing well in games that count and just not really caring in the other ones.
Still in no way is that acceptable.
by true_lakerfan on Nov 25, 2009 12:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A couple of points:
- I don’t remember our bench playing too well at the end of last year. I think we got rings in spite of them not because of them.
- We they did play well Ariza was on that unit. (I am liking what Artest is doing this year though.)
- Last year Phil said that when the bench comes in with a big lead, they focus all the shots their going to take rather than continuing the tough D that was most likely responsible for the lead.
So I would like them to focus them on defense and get that sorted first. But I will give them another month before I start to worry.
The Lakers "Too big, too strong, too long, too good."
by olf on Nov 25, 2009 1:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I miss Turiaf
Is it just me or do you miss having Ronny Turiaf come off the bench? That guy was loved by teammates and fans alike. He provided a spark off the bench that I haven’t seen since he left for the GSW.
by Hepcat77 on Nov 25, 2009 2:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
+1
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
by pslakerfan on Nov 25, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
missing ronny though...
…doesn’t really work in the context of our system. Ronny would hardly play assuming our frontline of Pau, Bynum, and Lamar was healthy.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Nov 25, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that's not the point dammit......
I just want him back, I don’t care if he fits. =)
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
by pslakerfan on Nov 25, 2009 5:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i miss slava too
haha
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
by shaqfor3 on Nov 25, 2009 4:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The loss of Ronny was the beginning of the bench's downfall
As I said in my long winded blog, the Lakers do not have energy guys. Ronny and Trevor were the bench mob. If their shots weren’t falling, they were still cheering the other guys or doing hustle things that kept them in the game. Now the only energy guy is Shannon and that’s not enough.
by Busboys4me on Dec 29, 2009 10:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think some better substituting may also be in order
Phil was basically making whole line-up substitutions while Pau was out. We saw some really weird decisions, I can think back to the start of the 4th quarter against Denver, and the same against Houston.
I think to help the bench players we need to see some better substitutions.
Having the full 2nd team out on the floor to defend a lead would be nice in blow-out situations, but obviously isn’t going to be viable. I’d much rather see Pau, Ron or Drew share some extra minutes at the end of the game than have Kobe or the whole starting line up come in to defend a 10-15 point lead for the last 6 minutes of a game.
by 99bc99 on Nov 25, 2009 3:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Breaking news:
Without a clear-cut suitor emerging to sign him, All-Star guard Allen Iverson is set to retire, his personal manager said Wednesday afternoon.
Iverson, who has played 14 seasons in the NBA, thought he was close to signing with the New York Knicks last week only to be told team officials had a change of heart.
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
by shaqfor3 on Nov 25, 2009 3:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
i dont get it
why is the guy so damn stubborn to accept a bench role?
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
by shaqfor3 on Nov 25, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Because he’s got a BIG ego.
The Lakers "Too big, too strong, too long, too good."
by olf on Nov 25, 2009 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, he's got a
B I G
ego
(and he’s nuts.)
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Nov 26, 2009 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't AI say he would accept a bench role if its for a championship contender? I could've
sworn he has said that before. None of the contenders need any help right now. Give it a few months, I’m sure a team will come a calling. I thought Iverson in New York would have been ideal considering he would have gotten his desired playing time and play a big market. I guess he does have some semblance of common sense.
by E-ROC on Nov 25, 2009 5:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He'd be in Cleveland right now if he'd accept a bench role
New York didn’t just make a bad decision without having Iverson, they straight F*CKED UP. They should have decided as an organization that they would give Iverson the keys to the season and live and die by him. In the end, if Iverson was able to do some stuff and pull that team out of the basement (he very well could if he’s allowed to score score score and nothing else is expected of him), the Knicks would suddenly become the frontrunner for Lebron James next year.
Championship caliber is going to be most important to Lebron after he gets bounced in the playoffs AGAIN this year. There’s no way in hell he’s going to the Knicks unless they make some major changes because they have literally no one to complement Lebron.
Not saying Lebron / AI is a good idea, it just would have been a good idea for New York to take him. Nothing to lose, everything to gain.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Nov 25, 2009 5:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I am pretty sure..............
acquiring a-hole, egotistical, overpriced (ex) superstar ____________ (fill in the blank) is how New York got into trouble in the past. I think they are thinking about the future and mailing this season in. It’s not like they need the jersey sales revenue.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
by pslakerfan on Nov 25, 2009 5:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
and if AI wouldn’t take a cheap 1 year deal I’d agree with you…but as far as I know he would, the Knicks just didn’t want him.
If it was a 1 year deal, then they’d still have the salary cap at the end of the season to make moves and they wouldn’t have to worry about him.
Or maybe because the season has already started his salary would count towards next year’s cap? I don’t know exactly how contracts work.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Nov 25, 2009 5:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The commit isn't long-term though. The Knicks are struggle on and off the court.
Their fan attendance has plummeted unless a superstar from a different team plays in their building. I think signing AI is the perfect elixir for the Knicks. He would put butts in seats and the franchise has a player to market.
by E-ROC on Nov 25, 2009 5:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Knicks for this season only is the only NBA situation that made sense regarding AI, and Donnie Walsh is too smart for that one...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Nov 26, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder what would happen
if you Kobe reached a point where he became a reserve, and you told him to sit down?
Aybar is a nowhere man, Sitting in his Nowhere Land, Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.
by princeton11loveshalos on Nov 25, 2009 9:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's so hard to imagine Kobe in a roleplayer type role
but I guess it could happen? He will probably retire as a starter.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Nov 25, 2009 9:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
but I wouldn't be surprised to see Kobe being reluctant about being on a bench
that’s why I have a bit of sympathy for Iverson. This guy was a great started during his career. But his failure to adjust to a role player held him back. I like Iverson and I think he had a great career.
Aybar is a nowhere man, Sitting in his Nowhere Land, Making all his nowhere plans for nobody.
by princeton11loveshalos on Nov 25, 2009 9:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I like Iverson and I think he had a great career.
And at least it can be said that he goes into retirement with all the same class and grace he displayed throughout his playing career.
The Lakers "Too big, too strong, too long, too good."
by olf on Nov 26, 2009 9:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He's playing the martyr card now
You know, nobody loves me, I’m going to go eat worms and what not.
I agree with Shaqfor3, why not accept a bench role? Why not come off the bench and help a young team, mentor some younger players?
Wait a second. On the mentoring thing, let’s scratch that. We don’t need any more selfish, self-absorbed, naracistic tattoo magnets teaching the young generation of players how to act. It’s better he retire.
by 99bc99 on Nov 25, 2009 3:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
thats mainly what has kept the teams he has gone to from improving
he doesnt want to be a team player, he only wants to be a starter and get a lot of minutes
and this type of selfish attitude will always doom a team… just look at the billups trade. the nuggets got a true team leader over a scorer whose unwilling to make sacrifice his precious stats in order to improve his team…If AI wants to come back and play with a team he needs to be willing to accept that teams plans or its over…
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
by shaqfor3 on Nov 25, 2009 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I have a feeling thats not gonna happen anytime soon
by true_lakerfan on Nov 25, 2009 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i bet some team (maybe a contender) might take a chance on him later this year or next year
but yeah his crap attitude will carry over and fuck up his last chance in the NBA…
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
by shaqfor3 on Nov 25, 2009 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
MAYBE the Celtics, no one else is dumb enough
The Cs, with their weird things for Rasheed Wallace, Stephon Marbury, etc., might try it. And I’ve read that they’ve thought about it. It’s freaking moronic, but hey, they’ve done dumb things before.
But even they are doubtful, and absolutely no other contender will consider it. Why? Because none of the contenders needs another starter. And definitely, none of them needs another high usage player that needs the ball all the time.
At this point, all legit contenders are looking to add solid role players, not starters. And definitely not selfish ball hog starters. No, I don’t think even the Cs are dumb enough for that.
Besides, at this point, the Memphis debacle made it clear that any team that takes him needs to give him the starting job. Any team that doesn’t understand that he won’t be a bench player — even a 35-minute bench player — has their head in the sand. And the Cs have Rondo. Taking AI would mean demoting Rondo. Not happening.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
by Josh Tucker on Nov 25, 2009 5:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, i think it's harder for some people to accept a minor role
especially when you’ve been touted as a superstar your entire life and suddenly you’re asked to “drop” into not just a “role player” but a “bench player” (it’s not like they were making him 6th man either).
(ex) superstar atheletes just tend to have different ways of thinking from the rest of us, i suppose.
by Nostance on Nov 25, 2009 7:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
applies to garbage time only ***
And does garbage time matter? I don’t know. Of course the starters need rest, but isn’t it true right now that the more time on the court Ron gets the better? It’s hard for me to say that our starters need to be well rested to compete for a championship. I can say that confidently about Boston, SA (duncan, really), and Shaq in Cleveland, but I don’t think anyone on the Lakers is legitimately too old to not run or too out of shape.
Derek Fisher is getting there, but he’s still in remarkable shape. When people watch him play defense, I think they are looking for signs of age rather than signs of youth, so he gets a bad rap.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Nov 25, 2009 4:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
What I'm saying is :
Is this really a problem for the Lakers or are we grasping at straws in light of the team playing near perfect basketball lately?
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Nov 25, 2009 4:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, personally, I've said I couldN'T care less...
It’s a problem, I suppose, but a small problem. So long as it’s mainly confined to garbage time, I honestly couldn’t care less. I’m not one that thinks garbage time performance has any effect on the rest of the game, or how they will play in serious situations in the future.
If the bench can’t play decent relief in the second quarter, or in the second half of a close game, then that’s a legit problem. We’ve seen some of that, but at this point, not enough to have me convinced that we have a big problem on our hands, especially if Phil keeps it to more of a mixture instead of bringing on the entire bench unit in the 2nd to hold the lead.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
by Josh Tucker on Nov 25, 2009 5:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You have to complain about something
If it wern’t for the bench, we’d have to move to the cheerleaders.
by Cool Dudes on Nov 25, 2009 8:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right of course............
our cheerleaders suck.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
by pslakerfan on Nov 25, 2009 8:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i hope the T-wolves turn things around
kurt rambis’s job is at stake
u never know with these teams pulling the trigger so quickly on their coaches…
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
by shaqfor3 on Nov 25, 2009 4:38 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
dude, he should be fired ASAP. look at their record! young team my ass. no team should lose 13 or 14 straight games, especially one with some talent. 3 good players is enough to win more than 1 game out of 15.
by chaucer on Nov 25, 2009 6:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You try winning games
With no bench, your two best players (Love and Jefferson) either out or hobbled, and a set of young players adapting to a notoriously difficult-to-learn system.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
by Ben R on Nov 26, 2009 3:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
luke walton is gonna come back
and show us why this is HIS team
YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD YES!
www.reverbnation.com/czheckproductions
by Czheck on Nov 25, 2009 4:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
um wrong...
this is has been mbenga’s team ever since the great coby karl left…
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
by shaqfor3 on Nov 25, 2009 5:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
the disrespect you two are showing............
for AMMO’s team is just downright rude.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
by pslakerfan on Nov 25, 2009 5:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Lakers bench really needs to focus on limiting their turnovers, especially in garbage time. During garbage time the turnovers spike up, which is essentially what hurts them and allows for the opposition to go on things like 15-0 runs. They just need to focus on the fundamentals, and as Kobe always says “execute.” Right now, they don’t make sharp passes, nor do they feed the ball to Bynum when he’s in a good position where he’s likely to score.
by intuitive on Nov 25, 2009 5:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
yeah listening in the car this is exactly what I was not only thinking,
but expecting. If you are up twenty points and you turn the ball over on 3 of four possessions and the opposing team scores on all of the possessions, that drastically changes the dynamic of the game, unless there is under 4:00 left.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Nov 25, 2009 5:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i have a solution
first, nice article, dex.
the lakers should relegate artest to the bench and for the time being start morrison at the small forward spot, until walton comes back from injury to start at sf. that would leave us with a bench that includes brown, artest and odom—-which is a lot more than a lot of other nba teams can say.
by chaucer on Nov 25, 2009 6:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
you're joking, right?
Think about how badly this would weaken our starting lineup, defensively and offensively and it’s not even guaranteed that Artest will play as well as he has off the bench.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Nov 25, 2009 6:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
no, i am not joking. does it sound like i am joking? you can forget about the lakers gettting a stronger bench this season via trades. it isn’t going to happen. this is the team you’re going to see all year. so get used to it, kid.
by chaucer on Nov 26, 2009 6:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Can we forget about...
…Luke Walton returning to the lineup? Or the bench actually shooting better than 23% from the floor? Give me a break old man…
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Nov 26, 2009 12:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
hey i am throwing realistic possibilities out there. there is no way a trade is going to happen, given that we have all the pieces to a championship this year. if the bench struggles, so be it. it won’t be enough to detract from the overall ability of our team. yeah we would be a much stronger team if our bench was better, but hey you gotta have some kind of weakness. we don’t have the worst bench in the league, that’s for sure. guys step it up when they have to, so i am not worried at all. we will win a championship this year, provided gasol and kobe are healthy.
by chaucer on Nov 27, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't think artest should go to the bench
but i do like your idea of more artest with the bench. This way, he can provide more defensive intensity for the bench and his offensive talents are put more to use than spot up 3s.
instead, i think phil should give artest and early rest (ie when odom subs for bynum/gasol) and move kobe to the 3 instead (or luke when he comes back). While luke is gone, shannon can come in at the 2 while kobe’s at the 3. so when the 2nd quarter starts, he can put artest back in for the subs.
by Nostance on Nov 25, 2009 7:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I heard the Knicks were hiring a new coach
you should apply
by Cool Dudes on Nov 25, 2009 8:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
only if you promise to come with me. i’ll need a good bag boy to carry my belongings.
by chaucer on Nov 27, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
no thanks...
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
by shaqfor3 on Nov 25, 2009 8:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's not a solution
Morrison is so ridiculously bad it’s utterly pointless. You either create a huge gigantic sieve at the three or you force Kobe to expend a lot more effort on defense than he needs to. Furthermore, playing Morrison for more than five minute cameos every game is only going to hurt in the long run, not only because he’s horrible, but Artest needs to become adapted to the triangle and the starting five is the most adept at running it.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
by Ben R on Nov 26, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sasha.....
I seriously cant believe how much he’s fallen off. dude was lights out in 07-08……terrible
"If your not first, then your last"
Ricky Bobby
by KobeistheGOAT on Nov 25, 2009 8:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
WTF?
Ron Ron is on KCAL live
hes supposedly helping cook some thanksgiving meal with the weather girl
no joke
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
by shaqfor3 on Nov 25, 2009 8:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
it must have been for five seconds.. cuz its not on anymore
In Kobe we trust!
by robi s on Nov 25, 2009 9:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
he was on for 5 minutes
theyre doing some thanksgiving cooking thing
they show em every 10 or so minutes
just keep watching KCAL he might be on again
Leave Chad Billingsley alone!!!
by shaqfor3 on Nov 25, 2009 9:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
it was very awkward
when the weather girl pulled out a magazine with a shirtless ron on the cover with ron standing beside her.
Lakers 2009 Road to Redemption: TREVOR, DEREK, LAMAR, PAU & KOBE.
Play the game of which Lakers reminds you of: TA - TI, Shannon Brown - Chris Brown, Pau Gasol - Jesus, Machine - Luis Scola/Russell Brand, PJ with mustache and beard - Colonel Sanders.
by PeanutButterSpread on Nov 25, 2009 9:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The bench sucks...
It is frustrating and it is a wonderful thing to have this be the focus of the frustrations! We are complaining about a bench that has the best sixth man in the league.
Come playoff time, if the Lakers are healthy, they are really only going to need Lamar and then what? 25 to 40 minutes from the rest of the bench combined…and these minutes are not going to come with them surrounded by their crappy bench mob compadres.
As we all have seen, Phil is the master of crazy ass sub patterns with seemingly no point in the regular season and then tightening up in the post season, while using the subs to fill specific roles they are prepared for.
It is good to be a Laker fan right now. We are afforded the opportunity to bitch that are second string is not beating teams first strings.
Only dull people are brilliant at breakfast.
by noontide on Nov 26, 2009 2:02 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
hmmmm
Must be why the Lakers are second in their division…
by Chucko on Nov 26, 2009 6:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
LOL....
I am sure you will be here saying that in May………
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
by pslakerfan on Nov 26, 2009 9:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it one or two games or a time worry???
As a diehard Los Angeles Laker fan I try not to panic but there has been a problem for me that we have not addressed since Boston dispatched us in a not so kind fashion back in 2007. Where does our energy come from? True enough the team was soft as tissue paper, but they beat most teams based on the hustle of the second squad and the excellent play of the starters. The true bench mob consisted of players like Luke Walton, Trevor Ariza, or Vlad Radmanovic (whoever was not starting), Ronny Turiaf, Farmar, Lamar, Chris Mihm, Sasha, Mbenga, and Coby Karl.
What people fail to realize is that bench had size with two seven footers (Mihm and Mbenga) and two 6’10 payers in Odom and Turiaf. It had hustle with Farmar and Ariza, and shooting with Vlad Rad, Sasha, and Coby Karl. Heck Coby Karl even got in the occasional flush. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7004f2ABFc&feature=related
What was so good about that bench is that it had pieces that fit. Unfortunately those pieces were PUNKED by the Celtics but that was only because the two very important players were hurt (Ariza and Bynum). Those injuries caused us to move our Bigs out of position (and sometimes Kobe too) resulting in mismatches that were taken full advantage of by Boston.
That team was not ready for the Finals but it made it there regardless. It was a year too early for them, but the rest of the League took notice and now look at most benches. Orlando arguably has the best and the league; Cleveland has Zeke, Moon, and two good point guards; Boston’s bench is extremely good with Rasheed and Eddie House as offensive fireplugs, and Portland is super stacked with young high flyers, even Phoenix has a couple offensive threats on their bench with Barbosa’s speed and Jarod Dudley’s lights out shooting.
What should they do? Strengthen the bench and get rid of Andrew. I am one of the many that has lost patience with Andrew. He just doesn’t get it. Even with Phil and the coaching staff telling him to come back as a stronger defensive and rebounding presence he comes back looking for more offense. He is a black hole in the middle and everything just stops when he gets the ball, he doesn’t hit the cutter so no one cuts. He moves look awkward and if he doesn’t score he either complains he was fouled or just mopes his way down the court. We wanted Kareem and that is what he has become; the old man Kareem. For those who can remember Joe Barry Caroll (JBC – Just Barely Cares was his nickname), Chris Washburn, Stanley Roberts, Michael Oliwikandi, and last but not least Kwame Brown understand that some big men just never get it. They show signs of brilliance, but more than not they disappointed.
What would I do? I would be more than open to the idea of trading Bynum for Chris Bosh. He is only three years older but light years ahead of the game. He plays defense, can face up and shot from the outside (3 pointers even), and he would free Pau to do his thing without having to worry about pleasing the other big man. Kobe could go down on the block more often and so could Ron Ron. Everything works financially if you include one of our misfiring sharp shooters either Sasha the Miss-Chine or the other Morrison.
Just like losing Caron Butler and Turiaf, Ariza’s loss will haunt us. But we can overcome that with some minor deals. The Lakers have to get more athletic and better on the bench. Jayred Bayless in Portland is being shopped as well as Tyrus Thomas. Either one of those guys would be a great improvement. Bayless would eventually end up as our lead guard (he is that talented) when Fish finally hangs it up. Tyrus Thomas could assume Trevor’s role on the bench as a Defensive Stopper. The other misfiring sharpshooter (either Sasha or Morrison) for Jason Kapono would make the Lakers better but not more athletic. Though financially responsible, keeping only 13 players is financially unwise. Why spend over $100 million if you are going to cheap out about the last couple that can put us over the top? All poker players know that if you are getting good odds on the bet, you take the chance. Dr. Buss should have realized this. It made the difference between us getting a player like Dejaun Blair and having him on the bench to help bang or one of the many free agents that could help this team out down the line. Injuries happen, teams who play as many games as we do wear down but we are not prepared for either. Use the trade exception and get back Jarvis Crittenton and add depth to the point (because Farmar is gone after next year) and find some other active bodies in the D League or abroad and then we can talk about and all-time great team.
by Busboys4me on Dec 29, 2009 9:41 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
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