Why do advanced statistics hate Kobe Bryant? Part 2
Yesterday, I posed a question that couldn't be answered in one post: Why is there such a large disconnect between Kobe Bryant's place in the game analytically (A top 2-3 player, with at least a fair claim on being the best player in the league) and his place statistically (an elite player, but not even one of the top 5 players in the league)? That question apparently resonated with quite a few of you, and it spawned quite a bit of great conversation. Allow me a quick recap, so as to better set the scene for today's continuation.
First, I posed the question itself: Why do advanced statistics consistently seem to under-value Kobe Bryant, compared to how "experts" (in this case GM's) value him? Because a conversation about all advanced statistics would be more of a book than a blog post, I limited the discussion to the most well known advanced statistic, PER. I described, in depth, exactly what PER is and what it hopes to accomplish. Finally, I presented Kobe's PER, broken down by individual component, and provided the simplest of analysis regarding those components, with a promise to go more in depth by comparing Kobe's individual components to other players.
Before I follow through on that promise, I want to clarify the intentions of the post, based on some of the comments that yesterday's entry received. Quite a few people were quick to either dismiss or defend the role of advanced statistics. It was pointed out that, while statistics themselves are cold, hard numbers, their interpretation is not set in stone. Defenders pointed to the fact that these statistics are simply meant as tools to develop a deeper understanding of the game. Many people asked for stats that quantify intangible qualities that we all know are unquantifiable. Even more people were ready to talk about PER's limitations (and believe me when I say I will get into those myself later). But very few latched on to the specific question I'm trying to address.
If you were to ask an NBA GM who the top 5 players in the league are, I'm guessing you would get a consensus that would look something like this (more or less in order):
LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul.
Of the 5 players on that list, 4 of them were in the top 4 in PER. Only Kobe is not approximately where he should be in the PER rankings. So, one could say that PER and NBA GMs are pretty close to complete agreement when it comes to player evaluation (at least at the top of the league). The one exception is Kobe. In Kobe, GMs have a much higher appraisal of his value than PER does. We are left with one of three conclusions: 1) GMs over value Kobe Bryant (or more simply, the GMs are wrong), 2) Something about Kobe Bryant's game doesn't translate statistically (PER is wrong), or 3) My imaginary "GM rankings" are full of shit and GMs don't really value Kobe that high (I'm wrong).
Option one is fairly pretentious. Assuming that you know better than the people who are paid a great deal of money to know this stuff is quite arrogant, even if you have the "numbers" to prove it. Option three could be true, but I feel like my imaginary list is an accurate portrayal of things, based on the answers to various questions from the aforementioned GM survey. So I'm left to believe, and attempt to prove, option 2, that something specifically related to Kobe Bryant's game fails to translate statistically. So, now that my intentions are laid bare, let's get into it and start comparing Kobe to some other, pretty decent, players.
As has been pointed out, using PER to compare players across positions can be a bit tricky. No matter if it is PER's purpose to give us a way to compare Chris Paul to Tim Duncan, the fact remains that PER is an arbitrary value, consisting of a collection of arbitrary values, and so any comparison of CP3 to TD is based on the assumption that the arbitrary values involved are all correctly assigned. In layman's terms, we have to assume that Hollinger's formula correctly assigns the proper value to completely different stats, like assists and rebounds, in order to spit out a number that properly compares the normal production of a point guard to the normal production of a center. In order to avoid that assumption (which, in my opinion, is iffy at best), we're going to stick to comparing apples to apples. Which is to say, we will be comparing Kobe Bryant's PER values to other players who a) play the same position as Kobe and b) play roughly the same role for their teams as Kobe. If you were looking forward to the PER comparison of Kobe to LeBron, I'm sorry to disappoint.
The two players we will use each serve a separate purpose. The first is Dwyane Wade, who is an example of a player that should (based once again on my imaginary list) be considered roughly equivalent to Kobe, but who's PER is significantly higher. The second is Brandon Roy, who is an example of a player who should be considered well beneath Kobe, but who's PER is strikingly similar to Kobe's.
Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade| PER Comp. |
3 pt | Assist | FG | FT | TO | FGA | FTA | DRB | ORB | STL | BLK | PF | PER |
| Kobe Bryant | 2.01 | 4.53 | 22.55 | 7.43 | -3.77 | -11.99 | -0.54 | 1.63 | 1.18 | 2.15 | 0.49 | -1.16 | 24.50 |
| Dwayne Wade | 1.52 | 6.80 | 24.57 | 9.25 | -4.97 | -11.85 | -1.24 | 1.51 | 1.19 | 3.16 | 1.42 | -1.11 | 30.26 |
| Difference | 0.48 | -2.28 | -2.01 | -1.82 | 1.20 | -0.14 | 0.69 | 0.12 | -0.01 | -1.01 | -0.93 | -0.05 | -5.75 |
| Per 36 min |
3 pt | Assist | FG | FT | TO | FGA | FTA | DRB | ORB | STL | BLK | PF |
| Kobe Bryant | 1.4 | 4.6 | 9.7 | 5.9 | 2.6 | 20.8 | 6.9 | 4.1 | 1.1 | 1.5 | 0.5 | 2.3 |
| Dwayne Wade | 1 | 7 | 10.1 | 7 | 3.2 | 20.5 | 9.1 | 3.6 | 1.1 | 2 | 1.3 | 2.1 |
| Difference | 0.40 | -2.40 | -0.40 | -1.10 | -0.60 | 0.30 | -2.20 | 0.50 | 0.00 | -0.50 | -0.80 | 0.20 |
The first table shows a comparison of Wade's and Bryant's separate PER components. The 2nd table shows a comparison of their actual stats, per 36 minutes. All numbers are courtesy of Basketball-Reference.com. So, what do the numbers show us?
- Wade picks up two PER points in assists, which correlates to roughly the same amount of additional assists in the real stats.
- Wade picks up a full two PER points from FG, even though he only makes .4 more FG than Kobe per 36.
- Wade loses about a point to Kobe due to increased turnovers.
- Wade gains a full point from free throws. This difference would be a lot higher (closer to two full points) if Wade converted free throws at the same high rate that Kobe does.
- The two are roughly equivalent in rebound PER points, despite the fact that Kobe pulls down a half rebound more per 36 than Wade
- Wade gains a full two points from "defensive" categories, blocks and steals.
I'm going to save my opinions regarding these results for the end. For now, I'm simply pointing out the differences.
Kobe Bryant vs. Brandon Roy
| PER Comp. |
3 pt | Assist | FG | FT | TO | FGA | FTA | DRB | ORB | STL | BLK | PF | PER |
| Kobe Bryant | 2.01 | 4.53 | 22.55 | 7.43 | -3.77 | -11.99 | -0.54 | 1.63 | 1.18 | 2.15 | 0.49 | -1.16 | 24.50 |
| Brandon Roy | 1.57 | 5.04 | 20.02 | 7.14 | -3.05 | -10.00 | -0.66 | 1.42 | 1.52 | 1.75 | 0.32 | -0.87 | 24.20 |
| Difference | 0.44 | -0.51 | 2.54 | 0.29 | -0.72 | -1.99 | 0.12 | 0.21 | -0.33 | 0.40 | 0.17 | -0.29 | 0.31 |
| Per 36 min |
3 pt | Assist | FG | FT | TO | FGA | FTA | DRB | ORB | STL | BLK | PF |
| Kobe Bryant | 1.4 | 4.6 | 9.7 | 5.9 | 2.6 | 20.8 | 6.9 | 4.1 | 1.1 | 1.5 | 0.5 | 2.3 |
| Brandon Roy | 1 | 5.1 | 8.1 | 5.3 | 2 | 16.9 | 6.5 | 3.4 | 1.3 | 1.1 | 0.3 | 1.6 |
| Difference | 0.40 | -0.50 | 1.60 | 0.60 | 0.60 | 3.90 | 0.40 | 0.70 | -0.20 | 0.40 | 0.20 | 0.70 |
Next, we have Kobe Bryant and Brandon Roy.
- Kobe picks up a full PER point in total PER FG points (3PT + FG - FGA)
- Kobe picks up 1/2 point from free throws.
- Kobe loses 1/2 point in assists
- Kobe loses 3/4 point due to increased turnovers
- Kobe slightly loses PER points in rebounding, despite pulling in .5 additional rebounds per 36 minutes
- Kobe picks up 1/2 point in defensive statistics (blocks, steals), but gives up most of that margin due to extra fouls
So what does it all mean?
I wish I could tell you that this is the part of the article where I hit you with some revolutionary way of thinking that will change the world surrounding PER, but the numbers don't support such an argument. All I can do is repeat truisms that have long been known, except that I can actually provide the numbers to back up why previously mentioned limitations regarding PER are actually true. That said, it should come as no surprise that there are two main areas that I feel PER mis-represents Kobe Bryant. Assists and Defense.
We'll start with defense, because it is a limitation that is universally known for PER. Hollinger himself admits that PER does not accurately reflect the contributions of a strong defender, especially a defender who's defense doesn't show in the stat sheet (i.e. with steals and blocks). Hollinger uses examples like Bruce Bowen and Quinton Ross as defensive specialists who have quite poor PER, despite an obviously valuable contribution on the defensive end of the court. But what of Kobe Bryant, one of the league's premier perimeter defenders. Isn't PER similarly limited in quantifying his defensive contribution?
Let's take a step back for a second and talk about Kobe's defense. There's no question, in anyone's mind, that when Kobe puts his mind to it, he is one of the best defenders in the NBA. The problem with assessing Kobe as a defender is that he doesn't put his mind to it all the time. Therefore, statements actually proclaiming Kobe as one of the best defenders in the NBA are rife with controversy. But, the fact remains, Kobe is a very good defender. Even when he's not trying to be "The Doberman", he's still above average. Once again, don't take my word for it, ask NBA GMs. The GMs list Kobe as the 4th best defender in the league, behind only Howard, KG, and Ron Artest. They list Kobe as the premier perimeter defender in the NBA, ahead of Shane Battier and Ron Artest. Now, I think we can all agree that the GMs are talking about defensive capability here, instead of actual defensive performance. I certainly don't believe that Kobe, on an every game basis, plays better defense than Shane Battier. But I do believe that Kobe is capable of playing defense on the same level as Battier. Circling back to the main point, any conversation regarding Kobe and defense is going to be equal parts capability and actual performance.
You know a name that isn't appearing on anybody's list of top NBA defenders? Dwyane Wade. Wade's defensive reputation is known across the league. He gambles too much for the defensive "highlight". He looks for the steal or the block. I have yet to hear one person say that Wade is anywhere near Bryant's league as a defender. But, in a PER comparison, Wade picks up a full two PER points on Kobe for his defensive stats. That's 33% of the difference between the two players, in Wade's favor. Qualitatively, you'd be hard pressed to find a single GM, or any other knowledgeable NBA personnel, who would rank Wade ahead of Kobe as a defender. But PER has Wade miles ahead of Bryant defensively. In fact, PER rates Wade as one of the best defenders in the league, because he has such good stats for blocks and steals. PER rewards Wade for exactly the type of defensive behavior that most experts criticize him for. So, not only does PER not correctly evaluate good defense, it also incorrectly rewards stats that can actually be the result of bad defense.
Brandon Roy provides a less flashy example of the same point. Roy doesn't play specifically for the stats that would increase his PER defensively. His defensive PER is virtually the same as Kobe's. But, once again, Roy has miles to go before he and Kobe are considered to be in the same boat as defenders. Earlier this season, talk surrounding Roy was that he needed to make only one more jump to become a truly elite player in this league. The jump being discussed? To become a better defender. Nobody's talking about Kobe needing to make a jump as a defender. But PER values Roy's defensive contribution and Kobe's defensive contribution as even.
Finally, we come to assists. I don't want to get into a conversation about assists as a statistic. There are plenty of people out there who point out how subjective the assist can be. There was a story about the Hornets employee who actually admitted to "cooking the books" to increase Chris Paul's assist statistics. There were rumors for years about how "gracious" John Stockton's bookkeepers were in granting dimes in Utah. But that's not the argument I want to make. I don't want to denigrate the assist as a statistic. Instead, I want to use the assist to make an argument so cliche that it almost pains me to put it in print: Kobe Bryant's assists are skewed because he plays in the Triangle Offense.
I know, I know, so much for the original content, right? First, PER is limited because of its evaluation of defense, and then Kobe's assist statistics are too low because he plays in the triangle? If you come back next week, Captain Obvious will be able to prove to you that Ray Allen is a good shooter and Tony Parker runs fast. Look, sometimes you launch into an experiment looking to find something new, only to find that the experiment confirms what was known (or suspected) all along. That's just the way science works. It doesn't de-value the experiment. What would de-value the experiment would be for me to post these numbers and then try to use them to convince you of something that isn't true. I won't do that, so we're left with what we've known all along.
And it has been known all along that playing in the triangle offense is not great for a guard looking to pump up his assists statistics. However, I can add something new to the conversation.
Quick, off the top of your head, name Kobe Bryant's best season in terms of dropping dimes. Doesn't matter whether you are going by the more traditional Assists Per Game, or the more advanced Assist % (which measures the number of your team's possessions that end up in an assist by your hand). You might be thinking it was Kobe's MVP season, the one where he finally "got" it and started using his teammates properly. You might think about last year, surrounded by enough talent to finally win a championship without Shaq. You might even go back to one of the Shaq years, the one where Kobe put it all together to become a really great teammate on a championship squad. If you thought about any of these years, you'd be dead wrong. Kobe's best assist season came in 2004-2005.
Wait, what?!? That was Kobe's first year without Shaq. The year he was finally able to give his selfish tendencies free range. The year that he was allowed to hoist shot after shot with nary a care in the world. The year the Lakers went 2-19 to close the season, finishing with a record of 34-48, and missing the playoffs for only the fifth time in franchise history (and the only time in Kobe's career). The year where he didn't have to pass it to anybody, and didn't really have anybody to pass it to. How in the hell could Kobe have possibly posted his best assist numbers in that season?
Because it was also the only season since 2000 that Kobe has played in an offense that wasn't the Triangle. In 2004-2005, Phil Jackson left and the Lakers brought in Rudy Tomjonovich to run the team. Rudy T didn't even last the whole season, the Lakers brought back Phil Jackson the next year, and the rest is history. But, for that one season, the Lakers ran a much more traditional offense, filled with Kobe Bryant pick and rolls. As a result, Kobe ended up with more assists than in any other season in his career. It's not a significant increase, but considering the circumstances, and the assumptions most people have about that season, it still speaks volumes. You want more proof? Look no further than the king of PER himself, Michael Jordan. Jordan's career assist numbers are very marginally better than Kobe's. His best assist seasons all came outside of the Triangle offense. Jordan may have been a PER legend, but assists were not the difference between his PER and Kobe's.
But, with respect to PER and the Triangle, the assist statistic hurts Kobe more than once. Sure, his individual assists statistics are lower than they might be if Kobe were in a more traditional offense centered around the pick and roll. But, while the Triangle is a bad offense in terms of one man getting a high assist count, it is also a great offense in terms of the team as a whole getting assists. That's why the Lakers were 2nd in the league last year in assists, behind only the Utah Jazz. Why does a high team assist total, combined with a low individual assist total, hurt Bryant so much? Because PER punishes you slightly for being a member of a team that gets a lot of assists.
The logic used is that, if your team gets more assists, it means that more of your baskets are likely assisted, and a basket you make which is assisted isn't worth quite as much as one that is unassisted, in the PER formula. If you don't like that assessment of things, think of it the other way around. If an assisted field goal were worth the same as an unassisted field goal (for the scorer), then an assisted field goal would be worth more overall, because of it's worth to the scorer, and to the passer. Where PER fails isn't in the assumption that an assisted field goal is worth less than an unassisted one. PER fails because it assumes that, if 60% of a team's baskets are assisted, it is safe to assume that roughly 60% of each individual player's baskets on that team are assisted. For players like Kobe, we know this to be untrue. Kobe creates his own shot far more than anyone else on the team, with the possible exception of Pau. However, the same can be said for Dwyane Wade, Brandon Roy, and any other star. So, while this is a valid criticism of PER's overall evaluation of star players, it doesn't add a whole lot in determining why Kobe specifically is under-valued. Regardless, each of Kobe's field goals are worth slightly less than Brandon Roy's, because the Lakers as a whole were a better passing team than the Blazers.
We could spend some time talking about the importance of pace. Pace adjustment is the reason that Kobe's rebounding stats (slightly higher than both Wade and Roy per 36 min) don't translate to a slightly increased PER rating. But to pass judgment on PER's pace adjustment is to pass judgment on utilizing pace as a whole. The idea that Kobe's baskets are worth less than Roy's, because the Lakers play at a fast pace and the Blazer play at a slow pace, might not sit well with you. But the simple fact remains that, as long as that pace adjustment is held across all statistics (and it is, which is why Wade's turnovers are more costly to his overall score than Kobe's are), it's tough to criticize pace adjustment.
Sadly, in terms of finding loopholes and problems with Kobe's valuation in PER, assists and defense pretty much sums it up. Any other weaknesses in Kobe's formula are a result of him not being the most efficient scorer in the world. The truth of that matter is what it is. Kobe does have the lowest shooting percentage of the players mentioned in this piece. Since PER is, at its core, a measure of efficiency, it shouldn't be too surprising that Kobe doesn't quite measure up.
Whether you equate efficiency with greatness or value is an entirely different conversation.
[Author's note: I wanted to give a hat tip to our resident stat expert, Dexter Fishmore, who was instrumental in helping me to gain a better understanding of PER so as to write this post. He also contributed a small portion of the writing to the first post, used verbatim, to help describe PER]
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I wonder
will Part 2 have more than 122 comments like Part 1 did.
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 11, 2009 10:10 AM PST reply actions
So let me start..
.. I HATE PER! …lol
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 11, 2009 10:11 AM PST reply actions
I don't care for PER, but
“hating” it is too strong. Gils_Keloids said it best yesterday:
And this is where some people don’t “get it”
While the statistics are cold, hard facts, the interpretation of those statistics still needs to be evaluated.
What some of these guys are doing with the numbers is not science, but everyone else thinks it is because they used a formula to reach their conclusions!
The formula isn’t perfect, but it’s the people who put such stock in it knowing it’s flawed that make it worse than it is.
And this is where some people don’t “get it”
While the statistics are cold, hard facts, the interpretation of those statistics still needs to be evaluated.
What some of these guys are doing with the numbers is not science, but everyone else thinks it is because they used a formula to reach their conclusions!
by wondahbap on Nov 11, 2009 1:04 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I rec you for quoting me
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Nov 11, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions
And I quote you for wrecking me.....
“I rec you for quoting me”
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
by pslakerfan on Nov 11, 2009 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
I was just kidding. I haven’t even finished reading the post to make a comment on it. I was just being sarcastic but maybe it didn’t come through that way.
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 11, 2009 1:37 PM PST up reply actions
Its a cold hard fact that if you miss a shot
You can get another rebound.
But it doesn’t really mean much.
There is nothing more efficient than
winning games and most importantly, winning Rings.
That’s all I need to know.
C.A.,
I’m curious. Could you look up what teams have led the NBA in team PER? Or how often the PER Champ has won the Title?
Adding up team PER is extremely tricky
You’d have to do it at the base level, before pace adjustment and normalization occur. I don’t think you’d get a whole lot from that.
The PER champ vs titles is a much easier thing to look up. Not surprisingly, there isn’t much correlation between the PER champ and the NBA champ. Over the last 20 years, it’s only happened 6 times, 3 for Shaq (with LA) and MJ’s first 3 championships. MJ is actually a great example of the lack of relationship between PER and championships. He won 6 Chips, and his PER was constantly decreasing over that time period. His best PER years happened before he was a part of a championship squad.
MJ is actually a great example of the lack of relationship between PER and championships. He won 6 Chips, and his PER was constantly decreasing over that time period. His best PER years happened before he was a part of a championship squad.
The perfect example.
Great example
There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.
Umm
His second best PER was the year of his first title. He also led the league in PER for his first 3 titles and was at 29, 28, and 25 for his final 3.
He also had a higher average PER in his 6 title years than his non title years. (Not by much though.)
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
I misled a little, you mislead a lot
Yes, his first title was his 2nd best PER year, so my statement that ALL his best PER years happened before being on a championship squad was slightly inaccurate.
Since you want to nit pick, let’s do this right. As you can see from the table below, 4 of his 5 best PER years were before he won a championship. I already said that he led the league in PER for his first three championships, that was what brought on this sidebar in the first place. Then, after that 4 out of 5 stretch, we get to his championship years (almost all in a row). Then we get to oulier years (His first two years in the league, the year he came back from baseball, and his two years with Washington. Without those outliers, it’s pretty clear that Jordan was at his statistical best in the years that he didn’t win championships. To say that his average PER was better for championship seasons then for non-championships, while techinically true, is a blatant mis-representation of the situation that is exactly why so many don’t trust statistical numbers. Classic example of manipulating the stats to make them say what you want them to.
1988 31.7
1991* 31.6
1990 31.2
1989 31.1
1987 29.8
1993* 29.7
1996* 29.4
1997* 27.8
1992* 27.7
1986 27.5
1985 25.8
1998* 25.2
1995 22.1
2002 20.8
2003 19.3
by C.A. Clark on Nov 12, 2009 8:30 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
PER and Conference/Divisions Play
I’m new at this… wouldn’t playing in different conferences and divisions also affect PER numbers? Like playing the Celtics more often would probably lower your FG% and PPG regardless of stats being “paced”. Doesn’t “pacing” reward the slower paced teams who play defense and get more rebounds (since pacing would reward them with a greater rebound stat due to their relative slow pace)? I just think the Celtics are slow, I don’t really know if they are a slow “paced” team.
I guess my argument would be shot down if the PER took into consideration the level of competition/competitiveness each player faced. Your answers would be much appreciated!
Good analysis
Comes as no surprise you pointed out the very aspects of PER that effect a player the most. Defense is underrated cuz it adds too much emphasis on stats of the individual and not on the players they play against. Plus you can’t really rate defense on one or two stats because you still have help defense and double teams and things that could bolster your score. You pretty much hammered in assists, so no need to talk about that. Basically PER is good at analyzing things that are individual more than collective. You getting a reb or a steal or a block or making fgs or fts is easily more quantifiable than things like assists and overall defense which are more team and system based. Also, Kobe shoots lower than these players, but his TS% is almost the same as theirs because it adds his efficiency at the line which they aren’t necessarily as efficient at. TS% also puts Kobe higher when ranking against Lebron as well. Even on his most inefficient shooting nights, if kobe gets to the line his TS% is still around theirs. Can’t remember the site that broke down his TS% against the Celtics in the finals versus lebron’s against them, but it showed that his overall TS% was still above 50%. If anyone knew what site that was, it would help illustrate my point better.
I hear a horn tooting............
sounds like it’s coming from around Kansas.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
Very thorough, I wish I could rec this 10X
Great great work.
I often want to express many of these same thoughts, but am either too lazy or too incoherent. Especially about the triangle offense. Did you know MJ had 15 triple doubles the year before Phil came with his wacky triangle offense? 15! The next year, he had one.
Also, mild quibble with this
2)Something about Kobe Bryant’s game doesn’t translate statistically
It translates statistically alright, it’s just that no one’s come up with the correct model that uses the right stats. They’re building their models off of the box score stats (points, assists, rebounds, even plus/minus). You have to be much more specific and contextual in your stats if you’re going to build a decent model. How about contested rebounds? How about contested jumpers? You have to incorporate distance of shots as well. And on and on.
Some of these guys thinks they’ve found the model that correlates wins to the stats. Bah humbug. Correlation does not equal causation. Garbage in, Garbazgh out. You can try to make a model out of the regular stats, but it’s like trying to create a model of a house using popsicle sticks. You can get an idea, but a lot is going to be lost. The building blocks of all the popular models are basically popsicle sticks.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Nov 11, 2009 11:13 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
Good call
The principal problem with “advanced” stats in basketball is that the basketball box score is woefully incomplete. Basketball is not baseball, and points, shots, FTs, 3PTs, ASTs, rebounds, steals, blocks, and turnovers are far, far from documenting every action of value that takes place on the court.
Battier’s face-covering doesn’t much affect Kobe, but his move might cause another player to miss 5% or 10% more of his shots in a game — that has value, and is not recorded as a block (or in any other manner).
Actually
Advanced Stats covers all of these things. Most advanced stats don’t look at the box score at all. Hollinger might, but he’s also a little kid in the world of advanced stats.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
Right and Wrong
Several advanced stats, it is true, really are not box-score based. But I don’t know of a single one that comes close to accounting for things like:
- whether a shot is contested or not
- shot selection (where the shot was taken from)
- whether a rebound is contested or not
- whether a player is scoring well against a good defender or a poor one
- a player’s ability to draw the double team and create easy shots for teammates
- and on, and on, and on…
Yeah, I’d definitely agree with you that PER falls much shorter than other statistics. But while other advanced statistics/metrics are more advanced than PER and exponentially more useful than PER, that doesn’t change the fact that none of them is anywhere close to being advanced enough.
As such — and I think this is what most people are saying here — these advanced metrics should be used to help us better understand what we see with our eyes, not to try and override what we see with our eyes. That is, they should play the part of supporting evidence, because they are neither strong enough nor advanced enough to stand on their own, let alone to stand on their own in contradiction to what experts and intelligent observers can see with their eyes.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
by Josh Tucker on Nov 12, 2009 7:48 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
careful...
you’re catching the Zaig bug. Pretty soon you will have your own little fanpost to “go at it”.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
I'm tellin ya ...
Build me the model that statistically ranks individual soccer players’ impacts accurately, and then I’ll maybe I’ll believe that there’s hope for one for basketball …
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Nov 12, 2009 10:43 AM PST up reply actions
First of all, great job Chris. Really helps me understand PER and it's limitations/problems.
I really didn’t know how much it overvalues steals and blocks which can both be attributed to good or BAD defenders. As far as the assists part, we all know that assists are hard to come by individually in the Triangle offense. It’s why the Lakers have never had a Point Guard with a high assist rate (by never I mean under Phil). I would imagine the Bulls didn’t either under PJ. To think that Kobe’s PER actually goes down because the team gets a lot of assists is ridiculous. Apparently the real flaw with PER is that it doesn’t understand TEAM basketball (in other words the Triangle)
I have another theory about Kobe. It happens to be my theory about great poker players, other great athletes, and almost anyone considered great in their field. They are hyper-aggressive, or to put it another way, they apply constant pressure to their opponents. The LA Angels of Anaheim are a great example of this. If you are an Angel fan you know where I am going here. The Angels (under Mike Scioscia) consistently outperform their (computer based) pre-season expectations. And by a big margin. There seems to be no statistical reason for this, however in my opinion a large part of it comes down to this………They put more pressure on the other team on a consistent basis than any other team. The steal all the time. They go first to third on a single all the time. They bunt all the time, etc. This keeps other teams and players on their toes and under constant pressure. Eventually over time they can’t keep up. Great poker players do this. Tiger Woods does this.
Kobe Bryant does this as well. I think this is the “intangible” factor at work here. Like many have said here, you can game plan for LeBron, Carmelo, and Wade, but not really for Kobe. We (Laker fans) all know the only way to stop Kobe is to wait for Kobe to have a bad game and then claim you stopped him.
Let me know what you think. Am I crazy here? Can that explain the difference?
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
We (Laker fans) all know the only way to stop Kobe is to wait for Kobe to have a bad game and then claim you stopped him.
Couldn’t the same be said for just about any good player in the NBA?
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
See, I knew you were lurking......
And no.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
You knew ehhh
First time I’ve been on since the clutch post.
And why not? No player does good or bad against the same team every time. This would show that it’s not the opponent, but the player that causes bad games.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
so are we....
bye
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
ENOUGH bagging on Zaig
I’m sick of it. From what I understand, his behavior has been questionable in the past, but the way people are reacting to him now is unacceptable.
This isn’t CelticsBlog, we don’t have itchy ban-fingers. Everyone gets a warning, everyone gets a second chance.
Frankly, his original comment here, on this post, was completely appropriate, a very valid question, and not worthy of derision or antipathy.
If Zaig misbehaves, we’ll handle it. If he persists, we’ll be forced to ban him. Everyone else needs to leave him alone.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
I know, I've gotten that impression
It’s just not constructive to our community as a whole, and not the kind of “conversation” that does anybody any good. I know they’re serious, I’m just asking that it stop now.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
It ended a long time ago...........and it isn't starting again....
chill.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
I wasn't responding to you.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
Alright man, my bad
If everyone agrees that it’s all in good fun, then that’s fine. My bad. So long as Zaig feels that way as well.
You do need to realize that things don’t always appear as they are, though. When I read comments at the LA Times Lakers Blog or on basically any ESPN article or blog post, I’m immediately turned off by all the petty comment wars. So if it’s all in good fun, please make sure it’s obvious to all, including Zaig.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
I don't know about Zaig's psyche, but it's all in good fun to me.
I just don’t see what about our current (and short) conversation above led you to your previous comment.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
it's just a big misunderstanding
Josh with all due respect just as intuitive said that it started in the pre-season which was around the time that you took a break and CA Clark or Wondabap mentioned that you were going to be away for most of the off-season. Not sure if you were around when someone even created a pslakerfan vs Zaig Fanpost so they could go at it. I actually think they became good friends from that.
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 11, 2009 6:51 PM PST up reply actions
“I actually think they became good friend from that”
Sure, wink wink.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
don't put up a front..lol
you know you missed him..
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 11, 2009 9:07 PM PST up reply actions
Well.........
I miss bitchslapping having fun with him.
I don’t miss how some people around here whined about it every time. Can’t a guy have a little fun?
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
that is what it seemed like to me
regular guy trash-talk…which is a guys’ way of saying, “i think you’re cool”
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 12, 2009 6:52 AM PST up reply actions
Check just below this comment.....
Apparently Zaig doesn’t agree. Too bad. Some people just don’t have that ability to argue and then laugh about it.
No biggie, he doesn’t stay long.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
I just saw that.
oh well. at least he is honest about it.
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 12, 2009 10:02 AM PST up reply actions
To be perfectly honest...
I can’t stand PS. But I’m also terrible at ignoring things. :/
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
I think you just hurt his feelings..
: )
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 12, 2009 6:53 AM PST up reply actions
You have no idea.....
crushed I tell you, crushed.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
I think they’re just joking around with each other, “pslakerfan” and “Zaig” Its been that way since the offseason started. No harm, no foul really.
Can't we all just get along?

Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 11, 2009 6:39 PM PST up reply actions
LOL....
Ah, reminds me of speeding around in my buddy’s Hyundai…………those were the days.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
at least it wasn't a white Bronco...lol
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 11, 2009 6:46 PM PST up reply actions
What the hell are you talking about?
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
again, I wasn't talking to you.....
And I know you were, thanks.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
huh?
did I miss something? what happened with Zaig? How did it go from PSlakerfan and Zaig teasing each other to this?
I think it is now a big joke now between pslakerfan and zaig and nothing they say is ever to serious anymore. I think their comments add something very unique to SSR just like Timbo does. But that is just me. Whatever it is, i hope it gets ironed out cause both of them are hilarious. But that is just me.
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 11, 2009 5:34 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, tell that to The Dream Shakers.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
oh god! speak of the devil..
now it’s really going to get interesting.
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 11, 2009 2:01 PM PST up reply actions
nah.....
he’s in hit and run mode lately……..safer that way I guess.
Don’t you like how he shows up, says something and then always pulls the “now I’m bored” trick……LOL.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
lol
too funny.
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 11, 2009 4:14 PM PST up reply actions
Essentially
PER is going to rank players who have the ball in their hands a lot (LeBron, Wade, Paul, Nash) higher than players who don’t. If you run you entire offense through a guy when he is on the floor, as is the case with those four guys, then you’re going to have a higher PER than someone like Kobe, who can go 3-4 possessions without touching the ball in some instances in the Lakers’ triangle offense.
Hollinger has tried to make up for this by making rebounds more valuable, with the thinking being that the players who don’t handle the ball a lot get their touches in the post and that good defensive role players gather a lot of rebounds or do a lot of “the dirty work” that doesn’t involve scoring. This is a horrible way to compensate for your stat undervaluing players.
Also, grading steals is a terrible way to determine defense, as you’ve said here. I think that turnover rate should be subtracted from steal rate before putting it into the calculation, because we’re essentially talking about +/- in turnovers — in this way, Wade wouldn’t have such a high steal total, because he turns the ball back over to the other team on a pretty consistent basis as well.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
Well
He does lose 1.8 more points for turnovers than he gains for steals.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
I realize that
and it’s stupid. THEY ARE THE SAME THING!
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
You can eat a turnover
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Nov 11, 2009 3:33 PM PST up reply actions
CA Clark, great write up. You changed my attitude about stats
I definitely fit into the category of fan that is extremely hesistant to put any weight on PER. After reading your post (Part 1 & 2) my opinion has somewhat changed.
PER is not an insignifant form of measuring a player’s performance as I originally though. As far as Kobe, using the PER method, it really does show that Kobe is not that efficient when compared to the "top" NBA players.
Now when it comes to so-called sports journalists, experts, and writers or anyone for that matter who tries to prove that player A is better than player B solely based on PER without considering the other aspects of the game, in my opinion, cannot be taken that serious.
I have no problem admitting that Kobe is not efficient. It’s not the end of the world.
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 11, 2009 2:11 PM PST reply actions
Kobe is the greatist player of all time
bottom line. no bird,no jordon. him and magic i see as equals besides the fact that magic was a little more clutch but they call kobe mr 4th qtr for a reason
stats cant show you how kobe damages the other team without having a the ball.
just having kobe on the floor is an advantage at least +12
YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD YES!
www.reverbnation.com/czheckproductions
by Czheck on Nov 11, 2009 2:47 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Now this is where
Logic gets thrown out the window and all other opinions become irrelevant.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
The Assist *should* be denigrated
Like the series a lot, but I think accounting for Kobe’s PER differential requires some discussion of whether the box score “assist” stat (AST) is all that valuable. The AST stat certainly provides some measure of value in assessing a player’s performance, but so, so much of value-added remains completely uncaptured by the box score. Consider the following list, which is hardly exclusive and merely off the top of my head:
First, no records track a pass to a player who shots and is fouled. If Kobe penetrates, drawing a post defender and he dishes to a suddenly LO or Pau, who rise up for dunk but get fouled and miss, Kobe gets no credit whatsoever for that play, even if they make both foul shots. If the defender fails to foul, however, that same pass earns Kobe an AST. Obviously, this information failure affects all players, but with everything, its impact will not be uniform and it is at least reasonable to believe that Kobe would rank among the top of those players who make such passes, given his driving ability, the tendency of teams to send defenders swarming at him and his ability to read the situation and pass to big men with good hands (Pau & LO) who could get fouled.
Second, the so-called “hockey” assist is not tracked. Consider the situation where Kobe/Paul/whoever drives into the lane, attracting defenders. Kobe/CP3 kick it out to a guy at the elbow 3 (Ron-Ron, say) who is momentarily open. The defender on the LA corner player (Fish, say) rotates over to Ron, who quickly shifts the ball to a now-open Fish who drains a three. The whole play only happens because Kobe penetrated, but Ron gets the assist for simply moving the ball along the perimeter.
Third, not all missed FGA are purely negative: consider Kobe or LeBron driving the lane, drawing defenders and getting off a lay-up, which misses, but is tipped back in by an Odom or Varejao, who became open due to the defensive swarm to the driving Kobe/LBJ. Such a missed FGA amounts to an assist, for all practical purposes, yet Kobe/LBJ will see that play detrimentally affect their PER, whereas most observers would see a skillful perimeter dribbling penetration move and an acrobatic, if unsuccessful layup, which created an open opportunity for a teammate.
1) Presumably everyone would benefit from this. Nash, Paul, and Kidd would just have more assists, and more relative to everyone else
2) Yep, the hockey assist is something that does not get captured. I can understand why – it’s difficult to pick up real time, but I do so wish someone would take the files of the game afterward, and track these type of stats and record them for the public.
3) This is the Iverson argument, and I buy into it! Again, can someone record these? I know they are subjective, but so is a regular assist!
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Nov 11, 2009 3:39 PM PST up reply actions
As to 1), agree
that it would affect all players, but we cannot know its distributive effect. Possibly Kobe would fall farther behind players such as Nash, Paul, & Kidd, but perhaps not. Perhaps Kobe creates an above average number of those plays. Who knows. But certainly some players would create more than an average number of those plays, and others less. Kobe is on my fantasy team, and I have seen at least a dozen of these plays already this year. I strongly suspect tracking these would see his “true” AST numbers creep closer to the league leaders.
Regardless, the point is made
The important point here — since this is intended to be a thoughtful, insightful, honest discussion, not a bunch of homers shamelessly pimping Kobe — is not just to zero in on things that hurt Kobe.
The important point is what #1, mentioned by KC Gunner, means for the value of the assist. If we found a way to adjust the assist statistic to account for these types of plays, maybe Kobe would improve relative to others, or maybe he’d fall farther behind.
But it doesn’t matter, because either way, the point is made that assists are an incomplete and VERY poor reflecting of a player’s passing ability (or even frequency), and the effect that passing ability has on the game.
And that is what needs to be said when people get overly excited about a certain player’s assist totals.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
who pissed in your cornflakes today?
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
you are asking for it...lol
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 11, 2009 5:36 PM PST up reply actions
What?
No one, but it’s starting to seem like I inadvertently pissed in yours. I can understand being a little miffed further up the page, if it was genuinely in good fun and I misunderstood that. But this had nothing to do with any of it — I was joining the conversation, adding to KC’s point, and ultimately explaining why his overall point (that assists are very limited and misleading) is a strong one. Don’t know what gave the idea that anything Gils or Gunner said bothered me in the least…?
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
Well I don't eat cornflakes, and I don't know if you do or not so I probably should have said......
Who peed in your cornflakes What happened to your usual sense of humor?
Your post just above this one reads like this (at least to me)….“Alright everyone we are getting away from how I want this discussion to proceed, move along, nothing to see here…..”
That’s just how it reads to me. Given your (overzealous in my opinion) comment further above it seemed that some one peed in your cornflakes took away your sense of humor.
That’s all, maybe I read it wrong. BTW, when did “peed in your cornflakes” cease to be a joke?
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
Man, I was just putting my two cents in the discussion
Comment, response, response to response… it’s how it goes.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
Yeah and I was just ribbing you about it......
comment….response….ribbing……….response, etc….
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
I want to get the last word in here
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Nov 12, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
me too
damn……sorry
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
Heh, great minds
and all that.
Hadn’t managed to read through all of the comments on the first post. Agree on the limited value of the AST for sure.
Completely off topic
But I’m a huge Gunners fan. I really hope they can turn their early success into some silverware this year.
Awesome!
I continue to be cautiously optimistic about the Gunners this year, though I think I have learned a little from 07-08, where we really, really looked headed toward some major successes, until the Eduardo trauma seemed to derail us and send us on like five million straight draws.
I thought your name was a reference to Kevin Durant
Who I just saw at a Clipper OKC tonight, and man, is his shot smooooth.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Nov 11, 2009 11:27 PM PST up reply actions
To piggyback off your comment KC gunner cause I agree with you
Because also what about the post up game, all five starters of the Lakers can post up now and before Ron, it was Kobe, more times then not it was Kobe’s entry pass to Gasol on the block but because the post player(Gasol) makes multiple moves in the post to get the two points, Kobe doesn’t get that assist and that what kills me. We know more then any other player on the Lakers, Kobe will have his hand on the ball for majority of the possessions so Kobe is going to be the reasons others get there points but it won’t show up in Kobe stats and thats a main reason why I don’t rely on stats and I won’t let stats tell me whats going on in the game.
There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.
BINGO!!! ***DING DING DING!!!*** We have a winner!!!!!
As has been pointed out, using PER to compare players across positions can be a bit tricky. No matter if it is PER’s purpose to give us a way to compare Chris Paul to Tim Duncan, the fact remains that PER is an arbitrary value, consisting of a collection of arbitrary values, and so any comparison of CP3 to TD is based on the assumption that the arbitrary values involved are all correctly assigned. In layman’s terms, we have to assume that Hollinger’s formula correctly assigns the proper value to completely different stats, like assists and rebounds, in order to spit out a number that properly compares the normal production of a point guard to the normal production of a center.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Garbage In — Garbage Out.
But Hollinger is paid.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Quite right
Regardless of how hard he may or may not work to perfect it, at the end of the day, he still has to make a judgment call — essentially, an arbitrary decision — as to how much weight should be given to each type of statistic. This turns concrete values (box score stats) into arbitrary values (garbage in), rendering the result completely arbitrary, as well.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
Using the per36 numbers is a bit misleading for comparison purposes as they are not pace
adjusted. So if you really wanted to compare apples to apples, you’d compare their rate statistics which account for pace. For instance, Brandon Roy’s per36 numbers will be depressed relative to Kobe because Kobe played on the 5th fastest paced team in the league last year (94.3 possessions per game), whereas Brandon Roy played on the absolute slowest team in the league last year (86.6 possessions per game). Those extra possessions add up (5.7*82 = an extra 467 possessions over the course of the year for the Lakers relative to the Blazers) and so just using simple per 36 doesn’t quite cut it. Similarly Wade’s heat last year were 22nd out of 30 in pace (just 89.9 possessions per game vs. 94.3 possessions), so Wade was doing more with fewer possessions than Kobe. That’s why his PER is better.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Nov 11, 2009 4:11 PM PST reply actions
The per 36 minute stats were put up only as a control
I didn’t really make any arguments based upon the differences between the PER components and the stats.
I just thought it might be useful to have real stats to compare the PER to, so that people could see that the individual PER components don’t come out of nowhere.
Kevin Martin was 8th in PER before he went down.
Martin:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/martike02.html
The Kings are now 3-0 since he went down. Tim Kawakami is tweeting about how much worse the Kings are when Martin is on the floor.
@timkawakami: Kings are better defensively (obv) AND offensively without Martin so far, according to on/off floor stats. By huge amounts.
Sample size, sample size, sample size
He played five games. All statistics are skewed by such a low sample size and his gains from the huge increase in scoring and massive decrease in TO%. Obviously, he isn’t going to average 29.3 pp/40 minutes for the whole season.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
Actually there was a really good writeup on this theory, but I dunno if it was here or on BE
Something about traffic jams when one guy is scoring too much. The same thing happened with OKC/Durant last year.
Poster for next year? I'm thinking My Little Pony.
Yes, I know the sample size is small.
But he always have a decent PER and it does nothing to improve the Kings.
Now, that's not true
The bigger issue was that Evans was playing the point poorly and functioning much better playing more off the ball with Udrih because he can better utilize his slashing skills; together they’re more productive than Evans trying to distribute to everyone like a traditional point guard.
In any case, the notion that Martin’s incredibly efficient scoring doesn’t help them on offense is a bit ludicrous. The notion that his nonexistent defense hurts them is more compelling, especially because Evans is a fairly solid defender against twos. PER definitely doesn’t tell the full story, but correlating it with worse team performances isn’t a good connection.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
No matter how efficient he may be on offense,
his play has never done anything to make that team any better. They suck with him, they suck without him. So, his “offensive efficiency” is a mirage to me, because it doesn’t translate to anything. Someone has to score. He scores for them. They lose anyway. Now, I don;t watch the Kings enough to make a definitive opinion on what they do better, but it just very well may be the case that the team is more efficient without his personal efficiency.
Oh shit!
Cleveland plays Orlando today. I got Orlando by 10 pts even though they are down by 9. I know Cleveland is going to be looking for revenge though. Oh well, let’s see if the Chosen One, King, or whatever he calls himself can carry his team. I’m looking forward to listening to V. Gundy. nite everyone.
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 11, 2009 5:55 PM PST reply actions
Damn, I forgot Lewis has been out all season with a suspension.
They may be REALLY good.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
oh god me to.
Carter is not the outside shooter the Turk is. Not even close. He is a dangerous player going to the basket though. But Turks outside shooting and a combination of creating his own shot makes him a better fit for this team. But without Lewis this game is over.
Kobe on Shaq (2003) - "But this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape, when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court.....no more blaming others for our team's failure, or blaming staff members for not overdramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, "my team" doesn't mean only when we win; it means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Nov 11, 2009 6:54 PM PST up reply actions
I think your above calcs
Are the exact reason why someone needs to go back to the drawing board to develop better ranking stats.
The formula is just made up of an amalgamation of stats and is pretty much meaningless. Just like rebounds for a center. The fact that no player just plays 1:1 or 1:9 makes them all less useful. In baseball you have real numbers to work with in pitching and hitting, while on defense, it is more like this and requires a bit of voodoo. I would not use the word quantitative in this case unless you heavily quoted “quantitative” analysis.
If you do your calcs and don’t come up with something that matches reality, you failed.
What about other advanced metrics
Kobe’s deficiencies in PER can be explained, but how do you explain Kobe’s lagging behind Wade/Paul/LBJ clearly in adjusted plus minus? Or in WARP? PER is not the only advanced metric by which Kobe is behind those three
Well Kobe scores far above Lebron in the ICE CUBE metrics...
Whatever, stats tell a lot, but not the whole tale. Interesting read all along, but as long as there are stats like the assist, or ranking systems that don’t take into account offense style, etc, we’ll just have to all agree to disagree.
By laugh test
WARP? It rated LeBron at 24.9 and Kobe at 14.5. Now, even if you accept that LeBron is better than Kobe, only a drunken fool claims he’s twice as good.
Adjusted +/- requires that so many factors be taken into consideration, and while they attempt to compensate for everything — i.e., the starter’s replacement playing against the other team’s bench, the strength of teammates, etc. — I don’t buy that it’s possible to come even close to doing so adequately. Given how each of the dozens of potential factors acts on the other, I don’t see how you could begin to correctly compensate for any one of them, let alone all of them. The sample size for similar conditions acting on any one factor is so ridiculously small as to be meaningless.
Furthermore, the adjustments in adjusted +/- are proprietary, and we know little about how those adjustments are made. How can we be expected to put blind faith in extremely complex mathematical calculations — which, in all likelihood, still probably require the assigning of arbitrary values — that we know nothing about, performed by a couple people that we don’t know … when our eyes tell us the metrics are wrong?
Again, advanced metrics are great, but it very important that they be used in the proper context. They are not suited to be an absolute authority on player evaluation, but they can be very useful in helping us to better understand and more fully grasp the things we see on the court. The key is where the conclusion is drawn; such a definite conclusion drawn on the basis of statistics is faulty.
In 2005-06, Ben Wallace ranked above Kobe in adjusted +/-, and Andrei Kirilenko was right on his heels. In 2006-07, Gilbert Arenas and Jason Kidd ranked ahead of Kobe. In 2007-08, Amir Johnson, Dwight Howard, Peja Stojakovic, Ronnie Price, Thaddeus Young, Chris Bosh, Antawn Jamison, and Manu Ginobili all ranked above Kobe; LeBron was ranked even lower, with Jamal Crawford, Steve Nash, Joe Johnson, Jamario Moon, and Brad Miller all ranking above him. I mean, it’s not even passing the laugh test.
Okay, so we’ve played the Why doesn’t real life measure up to the stats? game. Now let’s flip it around and play the Why don’t the stats measure up to reality? game: Advanced metrics say LeBron is better, and stats say he’s better in the clutch. Why is it, then, that the only time Team USA was ever in trouble, when Spain threatened to steal the Gold Medal Game and send us home with the silver, it was Kobe who destroyed everyone and won the game, while LeBron did not much at all?
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
by Josh Tucker on Nov 12, 2009 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
bad coaching????
I kid.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
Stats I Like
1. Team points (gained and allowed)
2. Stops
3. Wins
4. FT %
5. Team Shooting %
6. Team Turnovers
The problem with all of those stats is that they are almost completely useless in evaluating an individual’s performance.
by Cool Dudes on Nov 12, 2009 9:44 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I really enjoyed reading this...
even though you came to the same conclusions (Kobe’s D is not reflected by his PER and that the triangle offense keeps his individual assists stat down) I pretty much expected, I thought the points you used to defend your arguments were really well thought out. I especially liked the point that Kobe’s best assist season was the season without the triangle. Well done sir.
Do you think that a quality such as ‘clutchness’ is reflected in stats? What about defensive assignments? Not only is Kobe a top defender but he was (before Artest) usually guarding the premiere scorers in the league like melo and pierce.
Great work, C.A, very well-written and informative. That’s why stats and facts only get in the way, as we like to say over at PtR.
by silverandblack_davis on Nov 12, 2009 11:22 PM PST reply actions
According to 107 HOFrs, experts, players, and executives, PERs is obsolete.
Sporting News poll pretty much makes PERs a non issue.
The people that know better than any group of people on the planet have spoken and made Kobe Bryant the Greatest player of this generation.
With one ballot, PERs has been killed. And by a majority of 2/3.
Its funny after all of John Hollingers hard work to come up with a formula that would make his favorite player (Michael Jordan) better than Wilt Chamberlain, it was all made invalid with this vote coming from 107 HOF, players, execs, etc.
I thought for sure people saw that PERs was a joke when it had David Robinson ranked higher than Wilt Chamberlain or Tracy McGrady ranked higher than Jerry West, Oscar Robertons, and Elgin Baylor. But some brain dead still agreed.
Hollingers PER diem has always been a joke, his playoff picks have always been ridiculously wrong, like last season, Hollinger (using his formula) had the Nuggets playing the Cavs in the Finals. The picks he does get right, a chimp using colored popsicle sticks has a better percentage.
PERs doesnt like Kobe because Hollinger doesnt like Kobe.
The formula is started using a number Hollinger picks by his own opinion.
AND THATS NOT HOW SCIENCE WORKS.
It was created with the sole purpose to prove what his OPINION of a player was . And any scientific novice knows better than that.

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