Lakers Fans: Take the High Road, Please
by Josh Tucker on Oct 29, 2009 9:00 AM PDT
in Editorial
58 comments
Let's get straight to the point, shall we? We've got high standards for you guys. Yes, higher standards than we have for "them." Because we have a vested interest in your behavior as Lakers fans, we're going to be a bit stricter on Lakers fans, here at SS&R, than on others — even trolls and "haters." We have good reasons for this; allow me to illustrate.
A couple weeks ago, Kelly Dwyer wrote a piece on the on-court drama that went down between Kobe Bryant and Golden State's Stephen Jackson. It was an excellent piece, and the opinion KD expressed is one I absolutely mirror and agree with. You can find it here.
(Sidenote: While I'm linking to it, let me just say that it's a great piece, and like KD, this is one of the reasons I love Kobe. Also, I think if you really pay attention to it, you realize that Kobe isn't so much an asshole, as he is painted by many, but just a competitor in an old mold, and one that's not afraid to get into his opponents' heads to achieve an advantage. Denver knows how that feels — he's gotten in their heads in two straight playoffs series, with 2008 being the best example. Read the post, it's a good one.)
If you actually read the post, you realized it was a pro-Kobe piece. No, KD is not kissing Kobe's ass; he has written anti-Kobe or pro-LeBron pieces just as often as he has written posts like this one. But the bigger point is that he writes it as he sees it, and though his opinion isn't infallible, I think his motives are pretty unassailable.
I read the first page of comments, and was immediately saddened and angered, at the same time. Most of them were from apparent Lakers fans, very harshly (and sometimes quite vulgarly) accusing KD of being a Kobe hater. I was puzzled... did they not get that this was a pro-Kobe piece?
Lakers fans like these give the rest of us a bad rap. They ruin our credibility, to the point that it's often impossible to make a pro-Lakers or pro-Kobe point without immediately being labeled a homer and an irrational fanatic/lunatic — even when we're making very well-reasoned, rational, well-articulated points. The truth is, they're destroying their own cause. They're so passionate, so eager to make our case, and to show that our position is a good one, that their passion causes them to act in ways that completely destroys their own cause, and completely undermines those of us who would otherwise actually have a shot at communicating it well and bringing others to our side.
Now, let me pause for a moment and say that I completely and fully understand where these counter-productively passionate Lakers fans are coming from. In January of this year, I wrote a fairly bold piece at Hardwood Paroxysm, articulating the struggle and frustration of being a Lakers fan, with the rest of the world stacked against you. I, of all people, understand full well that it gets extremely tiring to suffer the ignorance, stupidity, and insults of the hordes of Laker haters — and I know well enough that those Laker haters never stop coming.
It's frustrating. It's angering. Sooner or later, it makes you want to jump in and tell them exactly why they're wrong —exactly why they're idiots. It's an impulse that's hard to resist. It's also one that we must resist. Again, allow me to illustrate.
I'm guessing most of you have siblings. And if you have siblings, then the odds are at least one of them used to love to pick at you, for no apparent reason other than to get a rise out of you. (Note: If you did not have a sibling that liked to do that, then the odds are you were that sibling.) Because I have such a sibling — for whom, when we were young, aggravating me was her one and only passion — I can guess what your parents probably told you:
If you ignore him/her, and don't let it get to you, s/he will eventually give up, and you will win.
If you're like me, for many of your young years you refused to accept this advice. And then, one day, you decided your parents might not be complete fools, and you gave it a try. And lo and behold, it worked! Suddenly, you were in control. And maybe, eventually, you and your sibling became not just family, but close friends, too. All because you finally stopped letting them get under your skin.
My younger sister remembers very well when I made this decision, and our relationship changed. She'll readily admit to you that, at first, she was furious that she could no longer get a rise out of me. See how that works? I had turned the tables on her; I was in control, and I was winning.
Of course, it's no big surprise, nor is it anything new. Three thousand years ago, Isrealite King Solomon said, "If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head". Likewise, you've surely heard the common wisdom, "Don't stoop to their level."
Folks, if you allow the trolls and haters to push you to anger, to turn you into trolls and haters yourselves, then they have won. On the other hand, if you ignore them and refuse to be baited into a flame war with them, then they are spitting into the wind, and everyone will see them for the fools they are.
You see, SS&R's credibility in the rest of the basketball blogosphere — and, indeed, even with certain influential members of the mainstream media — depends significantly on our continued insistence on taking the high road, and our continued refusal to be bated into a pointless yelling match. At the same time, the way you guys act while engaging others in conversation and debate on the internet also reflects on our community, which directly affects our credibility.
Sure, you can get on a message board, either here at SS&R or somewhere else on the internet, and get into an internet shouting match with a Kobe hater. You can call him an idiot a dozen different ways, destroy his position, and tear him a new one. In the end, you may win the argument, but you've done little to further your cause.
You want to actually change some people's minds around here? Help us build credibility here at SS&R. Because if we build credibility, then we can write well-articulated, well-reasoned pieces that support our position — and those pieces will find their way into the links and discussions at ESPN, Yahoo! Sports, etc. But only if we remain credible.
So yes, we undeniably and apologetically hold you, our fellow Lakers fans, to a higher standard. Why? Because we expect trolls to be trolls, and we recognize that there is little we can do to change that. But we expect any of you who think you're better than trolls, flamers, and haters to take the high road. And if you want to participate as a Lakers fan here at SS&R, we require it of you.
I'm aware that, during the off-season, C.A. Clark may have come down harshly on some Lakers fans and SS&R members. I also understand he's apologized for being unfair, but you need to understand what we're trying to do here — and you've got to understand that, in trying to cultivate a community that others respect, I'm inclined to agree with C.A. in holding you guys to a higher standard, and I will likely do the same.
If we come down harsher on you than on them, it's because we don't care if they make fools of themselves and reflect poorly on non-Lakers fans — but we do very much care if Lakers fans act in ways that are counterproductive to our goals. If we are more strict with you, it is because we are trying to build a community that even those who resent the team we root for respect. And that means that we must hold ourselves to a higher standard than others.
I'm urging you — no, I'm begging you — to resist the urge to be baited into a flame war. When a troll or hater drops by SS&R, spouting obscenities, please do not get into it with him. Flag him, and ignore him. If we don't see your flag, email one of the moderators, and we will deal with it. But you must believe me, the last thing we want to do is indulge a troll or hater by giving him precisely the reaction he's hoping for.
It's important that this community reflects well on SS&R, just as it's important that SS&R reflects well on the Lakers community as a whole. And when we have held ourselves to a higher standard than our opponents, the rest of the basketball world will start to see them for what they are. And then, we win.
At the same time, it's important to point out that, here at SS&R, it's our philosophy to give visiting trolls enough rope to hang themselves with. One offensive post does not a troll make; as such, their first warning will be just that: a warning, and an opportunity for them to stop trolling and actually start contributing. We believe that sometimes, if you treat a troll with kindness, they'll stop trolling and start contributing. It's when they don't, even after being "encouraged," that we need to drop the ban hammer in order to keep this a place of respectful discussion.
Also, our point here is not to discourage trash talking. That's part of sports, and we like it quite a bit. But it is important that your trash talking be easily understood as good natured, all in good fun, etc. — and if it's not being received well, don't persist. Remember that trash talk is supposed to be fun, so when it's not fun anymore, it needs to stop. It can be hard to convey good natured sarcasm and well intended humor in text. Be extra careful to make sure you're not being misunderstood, and good natured trash talk is always welcome.
Take the high road, folks — and while you're participating as a member of our community, understand that that is what we will expect of you. As such, we'll demand more of you than we do of visiting non-Lakers fans. It's the only way to come out on top.
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I usually just try to confuse trolls, but I can ignore just as well
Also, as far as other Lakers fans giving me a bad rap, I can’t really worry about someone else lumping me in with “Laker fans”, because 1) I can’t control that and 2) the labelers are just as guilty for trying to categorize people into groups. I think that’s their problem if they take a sample of one or two and apply it to the whole group. I do think you can control the group called “SSR commenters”, which is what you are trying to do here, so I’m fine with that. Just know you can’t control being thrown in with the Yahoo! Laker commenters, or the TrueHoop Laker commenters, you can’t win that war.
I’ve always thought that I only speak for myself, and I can only hope that other have that assumption. People who believe that any one person speaks for all Laker fans are seriously misguided. Even worse is the Laker fan who claims to represent Laker fans. Like the guy who wrote the open letter to Ron Artest. Speak for yourself, buddy. Just because we root for the same team doesn’t mean I’m “with you”. This ain’t tribes. We aren’t affiliated any more than the fact that we watch the same games.
But yeah, the high road, I can roll with that.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
I know I've tried to be more level headed in my comments on other sites
since I’ve been doing the Credits here.
But there are trols in every fan base. We can’t change that.
Agreed
It’s SS&R that I care most about. Believe it or not, certain communities develop reputations. It’s well-known amongst the blogosphere that FB&G has a great, respectful community. It’s also well known that the Kam Bros are awesome, but the LA Times Lakers Blog commenters are horrible. Bloggers talk about these things, and it has an effect on how they see us — both “us” the bloggers, and “us” the general community.
That, primarily, is what I care about.
That, and this: Though I know I can’t do anything about commenters outside our own community, I can hope that SS&R sets a good example, resulting in more of you guys to counter the number of Lakers trolls and crazies.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
by Josh Tucker on Oct 29, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
LOL GILS
Nice with the “This ain’t tribes” comment and I agree with you.
There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.
Agree and disagree.
I agree that Lakers fans shouldn’t respond with childish vitriol or name calling. they should state their case clearly and remain calm. It’s too easy for us to get riled up by the anti-Kobe army. But…..
I disagree that it was a pro-Kobe piece. It may have been veiled as one, and we know KD will go out of his way to tell you how much he praises Kobe, but his jabs are very subtle. In “praising” Kobe, he calls it “jerk” stuff and “junk.”
No matter how much he tells me that he does not, he knows that a Kobe article gets A LOT more traction when he does. Look at the comments on all of his pro or anti-Kobe pieces, then look at this other posts lie today’s “”http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Behind-the-Box-Score-where-Denver-has-a-good-on?urn=nba,198941" target="new">Behind the Box Score" with 10 comments.
Fixed it for you
Just click here.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
by Josh Tucker on Oct 29, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think you could be more wrong about his post
Veiled as a pro-Kobe post? I don’t think so.
The reason he uses terms like “jerk move” and “junk” is because (a) he knows others will use those terms, and by pre-empting them while at the same time explaining why he likes it, he basically steals their move and turns it against them (think, final rap battle in 8 Mile), and (b) because he specifically makes the point that in real life this IS a jerk move. You don’t do this in an office, or in normal relationships, or with business partners or competitors. Not if you want to succeed.
But despite that, the entire rest of his post is dedicated to explaining why, even though it’s a jerk move in normal life and some may not like it, he personally loves it when Kobe does that. Hell, he says it’s something Magic, Bird, and Jordan would do!
I know a thinly veiled insult, or an underhanded blow, when I see one. Henry Abbott uses them effectively enough. J.A. Adande is KING of the underhanded blow (that and horrible similies/metaphors) — Kobe can have the greatest game of his or anyone else’s career, and Adande will still find a way to throw a couple underhanded jabs in his Daily Dime. But this was not one of those things.
This was something that in another context, or to another (pre-disposed against Kobe) viewer, could seem like a jerk move. KD pre-empts such a person and turns that perception against them, and his WHOLE POINT is about why that “jerk move” is such a great thing in the context of competitive professional sports.
And yes, he knows Kobe posts generate more traction — but that works both ways. Positive Kobe posts can generate just as much traction as negative Kobe posts, with support from Lakers fans and hate from Kobe haters. Just because it’s a Kobe post, and just because he knows it’s going to get good traffic, doesn’t mean he’s got some sort of ulterior motive.
It was a great post. It IS a jerk move. And I’m fully with KD in loving that jerk move.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
by Josh Tucker on Oct 29, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
I actually agreed with KD.
I don’t think it was anti-Kobe at all. I just think it is all pro-Kobe.
Maybe I’m just to used to KD’s style.
I do see your point about this:
The reason he uses terms like "jerk move" and "junk" is because (a) he knows others will use those terms, and by pre-empting them while at the same time explaining why he likes it, he basically steals their move and turns it against them (think, final rap battle in 8 Mile)
Oh
You saying you think KD writes pretty much only pro-Kobe stuff?
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
by Josh Tucker on Oct 29, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t understand how this…
I just think it is all pro-Kobe.
…and this…
I disagree that it was a pro-Kobe piece. It may have been veiled as one, and we know KD will go out of his way to tell you how much he praises Kobe, but his jabs are very subtle. In "praising" Kobe, he calls it "jerk" stuff and "junk."
…make sense together. Clarify?
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
by Josh Tucker on Oct 29, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I used to hate coming into SSR
Until I came to understand what this post is trying to say. I used to get into arguments even with Laker fans in SSR. But my biggest gripe at the time was because I wondered why it was that someone would come into SSR who wasn’t even a Laker fan argue with me and when I retaliated it was me who got called out and told to calm down. I even stayed away for a while. But I realized that SSR is, to me, a quality blog where the conversations are more mature and well thought rather than just your typical hateful comments. I actually think that there are a lot of people in this site who should be Sports Writers.
Either way I can understand the point of this article and can definitely respect it’s purpose. Might not agree with everything but this is like visiting someone’s house. It might not be my style entirely but I must respect it while I’m visiting.
Besides, who could ever be offended when the purpose is to raise the quality of anything Lakers related.
"When I walked into the locker room on my first day as a Laker and saw my gold uniform hanging there, I cried." - Magic Johnson (Best Laker Ever)
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Oct 29, 2009 9:46 AM PDT reply actions
In a perfect world...
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
I suppose that randomly screaming "FUCK THE CELTICS!!!" is frowned upon, too...
’Tis a sad day…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Let’s keep it to a minimum. Say, only in the comments, not repeatedly, and only when there is a specific event that causes our Celtic hate to boil over, more than it does on any normal, uneventful day?
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
by Josh Tucker on Oct 29, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Hate your team, like your post
Been a die hard Celts fan since I was 5, have always hated your team.
That being said, I like having educated debates about sports even with people I completely disagree with. I like coming to your site and reading knowledgeable opinions and keeping tabs on the enemy.
Just had to be said, even opposing fans should agree with this. I wish some of the Celtics trolls would just go away to. They make real Celtics fans look bad too.
The purpose of this post is to weed them out, so guys like you have room to come by and have an open, real, and welcome discussion with us.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
by Josh Tucker on Oct 29, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
this is the type of Celtic fan I can live with..
"When I walked into the locker room on my first day as a Laker and saw my gold uniform hanging there, I cried." - Magic Johnson (Best Laker Ever)
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Oct 29, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Classy Celtics33
and just like you, we hate your team too. But classy nonetheless.
Well let me welcome everybody to the wild wild west. A state that's untouchable like Elliot Ness.
There ya go.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
That Kelly Dwyer article was article. I enjoyed it. There are many authors out there
that post articles to get their web hits. I usually don’t pay attention to them. Bill Simmons is one author I just don’t read at all. I don’t even visit True Hoop that often.
Agreed
I stopped reading Bill Simmons and have started to dislike Ludden at yahoo. The reason? They are both Homers (Simmons=Any Boston tem; Ludden=Lakers). I like to read articles for the objectivity and not the close-minded subjectiveness.
This is very similar to listening to opposing teams’ announcers (Portland, Boston, Sacramento, etc.)? Not saying they are all bad though (love the Warriors announcer).
At least Simmons admits his homerism.
As opposed to someone like Chris Mannix, who went to Boston College High, then BC, and worked for the Boston Celtics as a teen, then the Boston Globe.
I have no problem with writers being fans of certain teams. They should be. We are human, after all.
Simmons goes further than simply admitting his bias
His entire shtick is his bias. Without it, he doesn’t have a career, and he knows it.
He himself has said that he looks at Kobe
with a “glass half empty” mentality. At least he admits it.
"When I walked into the locker room on my first day as a Laker and saw my gold uniform hanging there, I cried." - Magic Johnson (Best Laker Ever)
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Oct 29, 2009 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions
The KD article was fair
It something that I’ve noticed – if Kobe knows you don’t like physical play, he will make a point of it to play physical with you. I’m thinking in my head “doesn’t he see that guy is about to blow his top?” and then I realize, of course he does, he just doesn’t care. It’s as if he’s saying with his play: what I am doing is legal, the refs will call a foul if they think it’s too much, and if you don’t like it, too bad, the more you complain the worse it’s going to get. Or something like that.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Oct 29, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh he cares
He just knows he can go there and succeed, whereas they’re likely to go there and fall apart, Kenyon Martin style. It’s an edge. He knows good and well that if the guy blows his top, it’ll put him off his game. That’s what he’s going for.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
I meant more that he doesn't care about the consequences if they blow their top
Whereas most of us (read:me) would back away from a guy who’s about to lose it. Kobe wants to help them get there.
"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson
by Gils_Keloids on Oct 29, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, absolutely
Yeah, he isn’t scared of any of them. They’ll go off their game, and he isn’t worried about any other consequences. Good point.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
Just wanted to say...
I signed up for an account here so that I could agree with you 100%. (I mean, I’ve enjoyed coming here and reading the analysis that gets posted, but this post pushed me to actually register) One of the things that always drives me nuts is seeing a Lakers fan resort to name calling, simply because they don’t like something that may or may not have been said about Kobe or the Lakers. Then again, as you mentioned in your piece at HP, it can be difficult to be a Lakers fan. Anyway, great piece and I totally agree.
Just like you said Josh
Take the high road, thats why I won’t even take my time to even view the nice KD Kobe article, I choose not to support those irrational people and writers. I give up the arguing because I realize no matter what you say to some they still won’t get it or change their mind, so why frustrate yourself? So I agree with you and have 2 younger sisters and 5 younger brothers who get on my nerves everyday so I know how to let things go and I’m glad I have a car to drive away from them..LOL
There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.
Also I will say this to support some of the Laker Fan attacks on KD
Once you as a fan have read basically over and over by one writer how he dislikes Kobe and bashes Kobe, every chance he gets, you come to expect it and react negatively anyway so some comments may have been made at KD for other Kobe bashing article’s he has made even though this article may have been nicer.
There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.
There are many, many Kobe bashers in the blogosphere and MSM ... some overt, others more subtle
KD ain’t one of ’em.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
Well after reading some of his work in my opinion he is a basher and I will not read another thing KD writes or
any other writer, who I feel says stuff against Kobe which is just ridiculous and uncalled for.
There are basic Fundamentals that are needed to move forward in this game. Always keep your guard up at all times to avoid being caught in a trap. Overcome the fouls that will be commited against you REBOUND AND PRESS ON. ADJUST to the LimeLight: ALL-STAR PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION. Know what your role is and play your position. Find a game plan and execute it. REMEMBER YOU ONLY GET OUT OF THE GAME WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT.
I know this is off topic but Gasol is out tommorow
Twitter: @LakersReporter: Phil Jackson said after practice that Pau Gasol will not play tomorrow, but is possible for Sunday
"When I walked into the locker room on my first day as a Laker and saw my gold uniform hanging there, I cried." - Magic Johnson (Best Laker Ever)
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Oct 29, 2009 3:11 PM PDT reply actions
Thank You, Mr. Tucker
Thank you for posting this. I have had my times where the post/ inflammatory comment was just so ignorant and stupid, where I have had to respond, but those days are long gone. Let them say Kobe is a this and that (you all know what they call him). I just smile inwardly, and know they are insecure because we have 15, going on 16, going on 17….. etc.
One other thing- you mentioned, in the article, that it is sometimes the fans passions that lead them to their blind spiral towards self destruction. I disagree. The majority of the Lakers-defenders (if you will) are psuedo-fans or young kids trying to “prove” their fannitude (that’s a made up word) by dropping the F-Bomb and criticizing Celtics fans mothers and the like. Some of them eventually become real fans (Like me, I never used profanity, but I was a “defender”) but most of them are fairweather fans just looking for a fight online because they can’t fight in person.
Anyway, this is a great article, and I really hope it spreads among the blogosphere. Sometimes, a heated argument with a smart Celtics fan, an avid Spurs follower, or a Laker-hater really gets us to appreciate our Lakers even more.
God Bless
There's a pretty simple concept here
If you’re going to disagree or engage with someone, whether a random poster, a sportswriter, or comments made by a player, coach, or whomever, at least make a somewhat coherent and logical attempt to address their points. So much of the troll/bad rap thing comes from people whose capabilities allow them to say, “FUCK YOU KD. KOBE IS THE GOAT. HOW DARE YOU MOCK HIM!?!” in probably much poorer spelling, random caps, associated punctuation, ungrammatical structure, and not a whole lot past that. It’s not horribly difficult to get past that, and while it’s great to be supportive of one’s team, that doesn’t mean it has to pass the line to stupidly asinine comments that just indicate your intelligence or lack thereof.
Naturally, in-game exclamations — i.e. “OMG. SHANWOW WITH THE POSTER ON DARKO!” — are another thing entirely, but that’s not really pertinent to this.
An easy way is also simply to not feed the trolls. Someone who obviously isn’t interested in engaging in an actual conversation and instead wants to provoke a shouting match (figuratively, although I’m sure some wouldn’t mind actually doing it) doesn’t deserve the dignity of a response. Laugh at them inside, ignore them, and go on.
And on the subject of sportswriters, people are biased. There’s really no way around it. Every writer has their little (or big) biases, quirks, or whatnot. Not all of them will conform to your view of the universe, but I wouldn’t have it any other way, as it would be incredibly boring otherwise. So before you try to go rip Simmons a new one for his latest anti-Lakers rant (although to be frank, he’s not really that outlandish and a lot of his stuff is entertaining), realize the reality these writers are situated in and accept the notion that it’s somewhat different from your own. Granted, there are writers that just buck the imagination with 1) horrible writing 2) half-baked analysis 3) head-scratching opinions (Chris Mannix, Simmons, Charley Rosen on all non-basketball Xs and Os stuff, Terence Moore, Tim Povtak, etc.), but there are also writers who don’t always conform to one’s preconceptions, but often offer superb pieces on the game (Tom Ziller, Kevin Arnovitz, Kelly Dwyer, Marc Stein whenever he writes his pseudo-documentary stuff, etc.) that need to be appreciated. Having an open mind is probably the best thing for a fan to have, and not appreciating all the game has to offer is just letting so much of it slide by.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
KD
KD still has his flaws like overly relying upon PER to really assert how well a player is playing (which is pretty much his only sustained argument for Lebron as the best player). But he still laments Kobe for shot selection which isn’t bad except when he tries to say things like Lebron and D Wade had as good of a season as Kobe’s when he average 35 a game or he gets down on Kobe for getting 24 points on 22 shots even though he’s at 50%, which just shows his bias for someone who constantly drives the lane just to get fouls all the time instead of a finesse style play. Sometimes he’ll follow it with further analysis of when they came, but for the most part he just leaves it at that. Then there was his whole Lebron for MVP thing a couple years ago when Pau first showed up I think where he got like over 1000 posts within the first couple hours. And he tried to follow it up by using a laker fans argument against them by saying well lebron has the most ppg and was the only reason a horrible team was winning like kobe did when laker fans argued he should’ve won it. But all I could think was well obviously, they think kobe deserves it even more now because now he fits the mold that made steve nash a mvp two years in a row. but yeah, he’s a good writer, but he rly goes back and forth all the time on his positions. He’s run by stats which is rly horrible for someone who watches all of the games. You can really tell when he’s actually watched a game fully versus flicking through games and then looking at stats.
the best blog on this whole network in my opinion is the Angels blog. Sure there’s some smack talking going on, sure their is some vulgarity, but at the end of the day their is nothing that goes to far, while everyone doesnt have to tip toe along a line.
Part of running a mature blog should just naturally entail that their doesnt need to be big brother stepping in over every little infraction. For the most part the SS&R does a good job of letting people have their freedom of speech, but there are definately much more liberal blogs around, which make those ones all that much more enjoyable. Part of fandom is being able to prideful in your team, and if you’re really afraid of being called a homer you need to get a life, its like those halo nerds that get angry when you call them “noobs” or say you “pooned” them. If everyone was as mature as they like to think they are, the little stuff isnt even going to be an issue.
I agree the best course of action is to ignore the trolls, but at the same time if someone wants to dish a little back, they should be allowed to. Only when it truly gets out of hand should warnings be dished out.
In Kobe we trust!
Laker Fans
I can appreciate an article like this, and I really believe the author means well. And I like the point he’s trying to make.
However, I am friends with a ton of Laker Fans, and 90% of them young or old are exactly what you described them as in your article. And that was “fanatics, lunatics,” and I might add fascists to that list
And despite your good advice, I can guarantee you that their attitudes, arrogance, and “the whole world is against us just cause they’re haters” attitutes will not change.
Their answer to everything is, your just a hater. Reminds me a lot of the Bush Administration’s views and policies. “You’re either with us, or you’re with the terrorist.”
No you A@#$%hole! We’re not with you or them. We’re in this area in the middle where normal people live think and breathe. Not on the edges with fanatics, facsist, and extremists.
The Laker’s should be a much more popular team nationwide, but they’re not because of these idiots that ruin it for the few proud yet reasonable Laker Fans out there whom I enjoy watching games with.
Ganx
You are NOT % correct. I’m not sure as far as percentages but I can tell you that there are fans like that for all teams. Considering that you just joined SB Nation today i’m going to assume that you have not been over to the Celtics Blog and taken a sniff at their attitutude towards winning. But here is where you are hypocritical in your comments. In refencing Laker fans you have used generalizations, names like fascists, and extremists and yet if someone were to retaliate to them your first thought would be, “there you go with your errogance again Laker fan” In reality it is fans like you that give the occasion basketball fan a bad name. I think you can make a great case for yourself if you just state your point of view withouth the mud-slinging. Right?
"When I walked into the locker room on my first day as a Laker and saw my gold uniform hanging there, I cried." - Magic Johnson (Best Laker Ever)
by PURPLE AND GOLD FOR LIFE on Oct 30, 2009 6:45 AM PDT up reply actions
"You’re either with us, or you’re with the terrorist."
No you A@#$%hole! We’re not with you or them."
Hmmmm……….sounds like you may be a terrorist in denial……….Are you?
PS, sorry Josh, the high road isn’t my style. I am more of a “you kill one of ours, we kill 1000 of yours” type.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
Sorry Josh
but that was not a pro kobe piece, if you read it carefully there are alot of negative words used. KD is garbage and so are all of his blogs and articles.
if you have read any of KDs blogs you would know that he was most likely forced to write that and you can tell he didnt mean any of the nice things he said about kobe
“Oh, Kobe,I’m sorry, that’s such a jerk move, but I can’t help but love it.”
“A playoff turn that, if you’ll remember, saw the Spurs bounce the Lakers. Ah.”
“Kobe remembers this stuff. Just as he remembered that Raja Bell(notes) was an integral late-season addition for the 2001 Philadelphia 76ers, a team that gave Kobe and his Lakers fits in that year’s Finals” a team that won one game in overtime gave us fits?
“He’s just that much of a competitor. Some might think, “get a life,” and I wouldn’t blame them"
KD is not even close to being balanced its lebron or nothing at all for him.
i do see your point about being a good fan,but never buy KDs fake hustle
YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD YES!
www.reverbnation.com/czheckproductions
At some point, your bias is creating their bias
Here’s the problem with your stance regarding KD. You are not taking his words at face value, because you’ve seen a history of anti-Kobe writings and opinions from him in the past. But, in doing so, your bias against KD is confirming his bias against Kobe in your mind.
Your opinion (which is shared by many on this post) is your own and I won’t challenge it. But think about all the Kobe haters out there, spouting their “Kobe’s teammates just pretend to like him”, “Kobe’s such a fake person” crap. They are doing the same thing as you. They’re pre-disposed to dislike Kobe, and so they see him through those eyes, and immediately assume his every action has the worst of intentions. You are assuming that everything KD writes about Kobe has the worst of intentions, and it doesn’t let you see that sometimes KD is very complimentary of Kobe.
I don’t think KD is anti-Kobe. I don’t think he’s pro-Kobe either. His view of where Kobe stands in this game is definitely not in line with my own. But just because he relies on PER so much that he might actually believe that Brandon Roy and Kobe Bryant are almost the same, that doesn’t mean words like "Oh, Kobe,I’m sorry, that’s such a jerk move, but I can’t help but love it." can’t mean exactly what they say.
KD is saying Kobe is the ultimate competitor, to the point that he’s willing to be a jerk about it if it helps. He then basically goes on to say something along the lines of “That’s the attitude that the truly great players all have”. The message is a bit of back-handed compliment, but it’s a compliment nonetheless.
The message is a bit of back-handed compliment, but it’s a compliment nonetheless.
That’s the problem most have. I know it’s a compliment. Back-handed, yes. His bias created the bias of his bias. (Who’s on first?) That’s where his history of writing on Kobe come into play. It does affect any future writings, especially back handed compliments.
I disagree with many of the things he writes. I also agree with some. I don’t care if he prefers LBJ. That’s his opinion. I think he’s wrong. There are no absolutes.
Man
You guys really are reading too much into this.
By insisting that something like this is a backhanded compliment, or a dig veiled as praise, you invalidate that point when it’s actually true.
You do understand that he very clearly applied the same “back-handed compliment” to Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and basically all of the greats… right? Is that really something to complain about?
The problem here: I’ve made quite a few pro-Kobe cases in the past. I’m sure I will in the future. But through it all, I try my best to leave personal biases out (key word: try), and I stay respectful, realistic, and support my arguments. I do the topic justice. KD has done the same thing; yeah, he may take a position you disagree with, but if that makes him a hater, then I’m really disturbed by your unwillingness to allow others to take a different opinion than yours.
What you’re doing to KD, here, is the same as if someone comes along when I write a pro-Kobe piece and, because I have done so in the past, writes me off because I’m biased, rather than actually evaluating the piece for its merit.
That’s bullshit.
KD’s piece was fantastic. It was absolutely pro-Kobe, and any anti-Kobe sentiment you’re seeing in that post is a case of you guys reading into it things that are not there. The only “backhanded compliments” made were also made towards MJ, Magic, and Bird — which might, maybe, lead to you think that it’s not so back-handed after all!!
By labeling any piece that contains even a single possibly negative word in it an anti-Kobe post, your displaying that knee-jerk reaction based on preconception and extreme defensiveness. The truth is, life isn’t all good or bad. Something can be a “jerk move” but still a good thing in context. And overreacting because he dared to call it a “jerk move,” when the rest of his post and the whole of his overall message was that he loved what Kobe was doing and thought it was awesome, really sucks for the rest of us.
I don’t give a crap what you think of KD’s history, whether he’s pro- or anti-Kobe, whether he falls more on the LBJ or Kobe side of the discussion, whether he relies too heavily on PER, etc. That is all irrelevant. It didn’t apply to this specific post, but it seems quite a few of you judged this post without really reading it, judging it based on its author and your perception of his history, rather than on the merit of the post itself.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
’but it seems quite a few of you judged this post without really reading it, judging it based on its author and your perception of his history, rather than on the merit of the post itself."
Sorry Josh but that is BS naive. Credibility comes from past actions. If Strom Thurmond or Pat Buchanan gave a seminar on racial equality and tolerance I am sure most people wouldn’t find them very credible.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
There's a big difference between credibility and the merit of the piece itself
This wasn’t a discussion on KD’s credibility. If you want to talk about credibility, that is a different discussion, with a different set of criteria.
This was a discussion on the merit of a single post. And while credibility may affect whether you choose to read that post — for example, KD has obviously lost credibility with Brittney, and thus, she won’t read his work — it should not affect how you evaluate the post itself, should you end up choosing to read it. The work must stand on its own.
And while KD may or may not have displayed any sort of bias against Kobe in the past, this specific post displays none of that.
By the by, I’m a die-hard Lakers fan, a huge Kobe fan, and a Lakers blogger. I got into the biz by starting a site called RespectKobe.com. Surely that has a HUGE impact on my credibility. Fortunately, many in the business, who may have approached my work with anticipation before they knew who I was, evaluated my work on its own merit, not on the basis of my biases, and found it to be very good. One such person is Matt Moore, who was a self-proclaimed Kobe hater prior to my site, and who still disagrees with me on most things … but who respects my opinion because he has found that, despite my obvious bias and the potential knock that can be against my credibility, my work speaks for itself.
Few know this, but I would not have started SS&R had it not been for Matt — and I mean that I would not have gotten the opportunity — and so I’m glad that he was willing, in the beginning, to evaluate my work not based on any sort of unquantifiable credibility he or anyone else ascribed to me, but based on its own merit.
Strength & Honor
It's good to be the Champs
How about this..........
Sometimes the message gets lost on the messenger.
Fair enough.
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
Dang, Trolling is fun
Dude,
KD is sooooo into El BJ’s * that it totally makes me sick. He places Kobe’s stats in the last decade as #6…. are you kidding me? Well alright he did say he is the best shooting guard of the decade so I refrained from commenting there, but dude, KD is an * so why are you momming up on us.
I have regretted sending some of my posts the very same moment I sent them (probably like I will after this one.)
Hey anyways, I am glad you are so noble, a true champion full of strength, honor and other things. I apologize that I don’t represent the way you do, Yet it is fun to be a turd sometimes.
Turd on my brother, turd on.....
Billy Mac: "Lamar, can you see yourself actually getting in the (boxing) ring"?
Lamar Odom: "No. My face is too pretty."
Come on...thats no fun
After reading this, and some of the comments left here i’m almost forced to come to the conclusion that not all lakers fans are idiots. Up until now i was a happy man hating all of you, but now everytime a laker fan does or says something stupid i have to think “they’re not all like that”.
So today, you people have taken something from me, and you owe me. That’s ok, you can pay me back by losing the finals in 7 games to the cavs. Ok? Good! We have a deal.
don't think so..
celtics and orlando will give CAVS match up problems more than they ever had the previous 2 years.. you’ll be lucky to even get to the eastern conference finals..
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